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Wish
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I've had my rescue BC mix for 2 years. I've been training dogs for years both to herd and obedience but Wish has completely stumped me. Whenever she is on a leash or in my car and she sees another dog she barks like crazy, lunges and pulls. I've seen her do it both defensively and playfully. I've tried all sorts of techniques to try to get it to stop. It is the one thing that is keeping her from her AKC Canine Good Citizen and being able to come to work with me.

 

Background: according to the Humane Society I adopted her from she was attacked on a leash as a pup (don't know how accurate that is). She is incredibly friendly off leash and is the queen of both doggy day care and the dog park. The only time she barks there is when a new dog joins the group and doesn't start playing immediately.

 

I'm just looking for addition techniques to try. So far I've done:

 

  • Redirection
  • Behavioral Adjustment (taking her away/bringing her back)
  • Walking her with another trainer and running away from her whenever she barks (she's super attached)
  • Desensitization
  • Trust building exercises

 

I'm really getting frustrated. I want to be able to do agility, obedience, even herding with her but I cannot bring her anywhere around other dogs where she is going to be on a leash. Just the walk to bring her to/from doggy day camp is tiring because she does that for every single dog she sees.

 

I've been working with two collegues of mine who have been working as obedience trainers for 6 and 12 years and we've exhausted our combined 25 years of experience trying to figure this out.

 

PLEASE HELP!

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Oh, I do feel your pain. Your description of your dog could SO easily be a description of my little sheltie mix several years ago - reactive on leash, fine off leash, social, etc. yep.

 

The thing that helped us was getting the book "Control Unleashed" and working through the exercises in there. Specifically the "look at that" game. The point of the game is to change the dog's emotional response and expectations when they see a trigger (in this case, other dogs).

 

Brief description of how it works: The *instant* I would see my dog start to focus on another dog (her radar ears would zero in, she would tense and prepare to lunge), I would click and give her a yummy treat. It was important (for us) that I click in the instant between when she fully focused on the dog and when she started her lunging craziness. Hard to time at first, but it got easier (she started waiting for the click). It didn't take long before she started looking to me for her treat instead of preparing to lunge.

 

There are other games in the book. This is only one, and it helped us tons, so it's my favorite. I would definitely get Control Unleashed though. It should help you.

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It sounds like you've tried a number of things, though I'm not confident that you've stuck with them long enough (or employed them well enough) to suggest that they haven't worked. Obviously I don't know as this information is not in your post, but a vast array of dogs have been helped via BAT, CC, DS, etc. Control Unleashed is also a good starting point, but it'd probably be best to continue to use that in conjunction with an expert trainer who can help you with your timing, assessing triggers, thresholds, etc.

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Oh, I do feel your pain. Your description of your dog could SO easily be a description of my little sheltie mix several years ago - reactive on leash, fine off leash, social, etc. yep.

 

The thing that helped us was getting the book "Control Unleashed" and working through the exercises in there. Specifically the "look at that" game. The point of the game is to change the dog's emotional response and expectations when they see a trigger (in this case, other dogs).

 

Brief description of how it works: The *instant* I would see my dog start to focus on another dog (her radar ears would zero in, she would tense and prepare to lunge), I would click and give her a yummy treat. It was important (for us) that I click in the instant between when she fully focused on the dog and when she started her lunging craziness. Hard to time at first, but it got easier (she started waiting for the click). It didn't take long before she started looking to me for her treat instead of preparing to lunge.

 

There are other games in the book. This is only one, and it helped us tons, so it's my favorite. I would definitely get Control Unleashed though. It should help you.

 

I've been trying that (it is what I referred to as redirection). I'll check out the book though.

 

It sounds like you've tried a number of things, though I'm not confident that you've stuck with them long enough (or employed them well enough) to suggest that they haven't worked. Obviously I don't know as this information is not in your post, but a vast array of dogs have been helped via BAT, CC, DS, etc. Control Unleashed is also a good starting point, but it'd probably be best to continue to use that in conjunction with an expert trainer who can help you with your timing, assessing triggers, thresholds, etc.

 

I am a professional trainer and have been training for 7 years. In my time training the only dog I've had this much trouble with leash reactivity was a deaf dalmatian. The only thing I haven't stuck with for more than 6 months was running away from her, simply because it is hard to find a second person who she isn't attached to be on the second leash. As I said in my post I've been working with two colleagues to get another person's input.

 

I still try to redirect her on every walk and to treat her before she can react but despite my timing on the click/treat being good (I've gotten another trainer's input on that) she still reacts. I do this on every walk where we run into another dog. When she doesn't stop reacting I switch into BAT and try to get her away which takes all of my strength (she's only 35lbs but she is wicked strong). Even if I stay there and shove treats into her face she won't turn her attention away or calm down.

 

Like I said I'm a professional trainer and have 7 years experience so I know the importance of timing and being consistent but none of it seems to be working for her.

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I've been trying that (it is what I referred to as redirection). I'll check out the book though.

 

LAT is different from redirection. LAT actually teaches the dog to see the dog, be able to take in the sight of the dog, and remain calm. The ultimate goal of LAT is to not have to play LAT anymore.

 

Yes, get the book. You will probably be very surprised. CU is unique.

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I still try to redirect her on every walk and to treat her before she can react but despite my timing on the click/treat being good (I've gotten another trainer's input on that) she still reacts. I do this on every walk where we run into another dog. When she doesn't stop reacting I switch into BAT and try to get her away which takes all of my strength (she's only 35lbs but she is wicked strong). Even if I stay there and shove treats into her face she won't turn her attention away or calm down.

 

Like I said I'm a professional trainer and have 7 years experience so I know the importance of timing and being consistent but none of it seems to be working for her.

 

It sounds like she's way over threshold, so by that time it's too late to do BAT. Also I don't really think that a clicker is 100% necessary in a situation like this, but I could be mistaken. Unless you feel you need to mark the appeasement signal during a BAT session precisely, or a look during LAT, I'd probably stick to verbal or environmental markers. The sound of a clicker can elicit an excited reaction in clicker savvy dogs and adding more excitement into the mix may not be in your best interest. It'll depend on you and your dog of course.

 

What sort of distances are you working with your pup? There must be some distance where she's non-reactive on leash, so quite honestly if I were in your position I'd go back to BAT basics and work from there and change the distance VERY gradually. She definitely sounds like a challenge.

 

Also, have you considered a thundershirt? I have a friend who's just started using one on her reactive field Golden and she's noticed a marked difference in thresholds immediately.

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LAT is different from redirection. LAT actually teaches the dog to see the dog, be able to take in the sight of the dog, and remain calm. The ultimate goal of LAT is to not have to play LAT anymore.

 

 

Yes, definitely get the book... I probably didn't explain it well enough, but LAT is not simple redirection. You are not saying to the dog "oh, that thing over there is scary/exciting/whatever... but I've got this awesome thing over here!!" Instead, you are teaching the dog that "Every time you see that scary/exciting thing and start to rev up, awesomeness will happen" You are pairing the trigger with the reward, so the trigger becomes the predictor of the reward... rather than distracting the dog from the trigger with a reward (that's how I would define redirection in this case at least). When you play "look at that," you work with the dog far enough away from the triggers that he remains under threshold, but close enough that he looks at and fully acknowledges the existence of the trigger. YOu are not trying to distract him from noticing it... you are changing the emotional response to it. It does work. My girl used to react SO strongly to SO many things. Now, she sees them, and then turns to me with a happy face, waiting for her praise or treat.

 

Best,

Danielle

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Yes, definitely get the book... I probably didn't explain it well enough, but LAT is not simple redirection. You are not saying to the dog "oh, that thing over there is scary/exciting/whatever... but I've got this awesome thing over here!!" Instead, you are teaching the dog that "Every time you see that scary/exciting thing and start to rev up, awesomeness will happen" You are pairing the trigger with the reward, so the trigger becomes the predictor of the reward... rather than distracting the dog from the trigger with a reward (that's how I would define redirection in this case at least). When you play "look at that," you work with the dog far enough away from the triggers that he remains under threshold, but close enough that he looks at and fully acknowledges the existence of the trigger. YOu are not trying to distract him from noticing it... you are changing the emotional response to it. It does work. My girl used to react SO strongly to SO many things. Now, she sees them, and then turns to me with a happy face, waiting for her praise or treat.

 

Best,

Danielle

 

Thanks for your suggestion

 

Well, one thing is missing of that list. Not the first thing to go to obviously, but what about some old fashion compulsion?

 

I work for a company that only uses positive training methods, I'd feel a bit more than guilty using compulsion.

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It sounds like she's way over threshold, so by that time it's too late to do BAT. Also I don't really think that a clicker is 100% necessary in a situation like this, but I could be mistaken. Unless you feel you need to mark the appeasement signal during a BAT session precisely, or a look during LAT, I'd probably stick to verbal or environmental markers. The sound of a clicker can elicit an excited reaction in clicker savvy dogs and adding more excitement into the mix may not be in your best interest. It'll depend on you and your dog of course.

 

What sort of distances are you working with your pup? There must be some distance where she's non-reactive on leash, so quite honestly if I were in your position I'd go back to BAT basics and work from there and change the distance VERY gradually. She definitely sounds like a challenge.

 

Also, have you considered a thundershirt? I have a friend who's just started using one on her reactive field Golden and she's noticed a marked difference in thresholds immediately.

 

She reacts at ridiculous distances. I've been a 1/4 mile away before which is what makes all of this difficult is that I have such a tiny window of time from when I notice the other dog and she starts reacting. I've been using a clicker with her since April and that has made a difference in everything else she does but so far all of the advances I've made with her as far as her reactivity disappear as soon as a new dog is introduced to the environment.

 

I've tried a Thundershirt before and it actually made it worse. As far as I can tell she felt exposed because her body was telling her to relax. It makes little sense but that is the way it is.

 

She is a challenge but it is a good thing she is cute. But I can see why she was surrendered to the Humane Society twice.

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She reacts at ridiculous distances. I've been a 1/4 mile away before which is what makes all of this difficult is that I have such a tiny window of time from when I notice the other dog and she starts reacting.

 

One thing that I have found helpful is to park the car somewhere the dog can see the trigger (dogs, people, children, bikes, cars, etc), and play LAT with the dog in the car.

 

In a case where the dog reacts at such distances, I would start in the car with something that the dog does not react to (people, perhaps?). Only once the dog knows the game solidly in that context with a neutral stimulus would I start to add the trigger to which the dog reacts, and at enough of a distance to keep the dog under threshold. The far side of a Petsmart parking lot can be a good place to work once the dog is able to play with neutral triggers.

 

Once the dog can work in the car, rather close to the triggers, the distance can be increased and work can begin in the open.

 

LAT is a very powerful game. I think that once your dog gets the hang of it, you will be surprised at how fast the dog will progress. It is far more effective than redirection, or "look at me".

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Why would trying compulsion make you feel guilty? Personally I use mostly reward based training but do add in a bit of compulsion if I think it may help in a certain situation

 

Not so much guilty as I can lose my job if someone were to report me to my employer.

 

One thing that I have found helpful is to park the car somewhere the dog can see the trigger (dogs, people, children, bikes, cars, etc), and play LAT with the dog in the car.

 

In a case where the dog reacts at such distances, I would start in the car with something that the dog does not react to (people, perhaps?). Only once the dog knows the game solidly in that context with a neutral stimulus would I start to add the trigger to which the dog reacts, and at enough of a distance to keep the dog under threshold. The far side of a Petsmart parking lot can be a good place to work once the dog is able to play with neutral triggers.

 

Once the dog can work in the car, rather close to the triggers, the distance can be increased and work can begin in the open.

 

LAT is a very powerful game. I think that once your dog gets the hang of it, you will be surprised at how fast the dog will progress. It is far more effective than redirection, or "look at me".

 

I'll have to make sure my car insurance is all paid up (she's broken my windshield before, lol). Thanks for the suggestion.

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Thanks Journey! That is all I was pointing at.

It amazes me how narrow minded (damn right I am going there!!!) some have become. I suppose they assume compulsion means ripping the dogs head off. I was not suggesting any such thing.

But a small correction for bad behavior also refocuses.

I have grown in my training, professionally as well as a novice, in the last 30 years. I have embraced the positive training over time. READ as: I see huge payoffs so I use it. But I guess I am still old, and now experienced enough, to know that a well place correction has huge benefits under the right circumstance.

 

A dog that is that leash aggressive is telling you that it knows where you are (at the end of the lead) and that it does not care. It gets more satisfaction in being ill mannered. I suppose there is still the you element that is controlling the lead. Maybe some mixed signals? But I will give a trainer enough respect to not go there right of the bat.

I had a dog that tried this and we quickly went to the old Koehler (and I recommend to read the article themselves and not assume) style loose lead walking. There was a self inflicted consequence to not paying attention to me by essentially running into the end of the lead. She learned quickly that her eyes served her better by paying attention to me (by the way, no jerking or anything from my end at all). After she got the basic idea I was able to then go to a more positive reward based plan. It got her out of the fixated stupid state initially anyway. And yes, I did a fair amount of walking. This was many years ago. Maybe today I would be as successful using only positive methods. But since a trainer with 23 years of combined experience has already covered all those bases, I just pointed out that one was not listed.

 

I would like to know what company you are working for please.

 

And while I am writing this I see your comment about the windshield?

 

Edited to add that the narrow minded does not just apply to owners but also to clients and bystanders that judge way to quick at times without knowing what all has been tried and have nothing better to do than meddle!

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I'll have to make sure my car insurance is all paid up (she's broken my windshield before, lol). Thanks for the suggestion.

 

OK, now that is where I would start. If she doesn't have the self control to be calm in the car, she definitely needs some self-control skill building to be able to work through the dog issue. I would do quite a lot with mat work and move to mat work in the car before ever moving to a place where triggers will be present.

 

I do think you are going to find CU to be just the thing, and it's all reinforcement based, so you don't have to worry about your job - in fact, learning CU just might make you a more valuable employee.

 

If you haven't gotten the book yet, I recommend that you actually get the CU puppy book, rather than the original. The puppy book is a lot clearer in how to introduce the games - the fact that your dog isn't a puppy is not a problem. If you've already gotten the original, that's fine - it's awesome - the puppy book is just a little more user friendly.

 

If you do get into CU and you have questions, feel free to PM me. If I can't help you, I could probably steer you to someone who could.

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A dog that is that leash aggressive is telling you that it knows where you are (at the end of the lead) and that it does not care. It gets more satisfaction in being ill mannered.

 

That's one interpretation, but certainly not the only possibility.

 

For many dogs, dog reactivity is involuntary. A certain threshold is crossed, chemicals are released in the dog's brain, and his or her behavior is largely out of his or her control.

 

In those situations, the dog is not making a choice to be "ill-mannered", and changing the behavior first requires a change in the underlying response that the dog is experiencing (involuntarily).

 

Maybe today I would be as successful using only positive methods.

 

You may well be. There are reinforcement based options available to us now that weren't even around 10 years ago, and there are skilled and experienced instructors who have successfully helped dogs, time and time again, overcome reactivity through reinforcement based techniques (End result: a dog that is calm in situations where he or she would have reacted before)

 

Unfortunately, many of these techniques and approaches are still not completely mainstream, although they are gaining recognition as more and more people learn them and use them successfully.

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<dons on flame retardant suit>

 

I have two reactive dogs. Correction doesn't work for one. Highly reinforcing reward based training does. So that's what I use.

 

Other dog is more spazy reactive. I also use highly reinforcing reward based training with her. I also use corrections. It works for her. Enrolled her in a basic OB class to work on self control. Started out with lots of high value treats and a prong collar. Hardly used the prong collar, but did a few times throughout the class. By the end of the class period I had a dog that went from spazy from the new environment/new people/new dogs to pretty happily focused on me and walking on a loose leash.

 

I'm going to continue to use a variety of methods with my young dog in class. I'll arrive early and get her calm before hand. I'll use Premack in reinforcing what I want. I'll do CU games and I'll have high value rewards and lots of them. But I'll also use a well timed correction.

 

Quite frankly, if you have a dog that is breaking your windshield, you could have a life or death situation on your hands. Is it worth your (or your dog's life) to rule out any sort of correction?

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Thanks Journey! That is all I was pointing at.

It amazes me how narrow minded (damn right I am going there!!!) some have become. I suppose they assume compulsion means ripping the dogs head off. I was not suggesting any such thing.

But a small correction for bad behavior also refocuses.

I have grown in my training, professionally as well as a novice, in the last 30 years. I have embraced the positive training over time. READ as: I see huge payoffs so I use it. But I guess I am still old, and now experienced enough, to know that a well place correction has huge benefits under the right circumstance.

 

A dog that is that leash aggressive is telling you that it knows where you are (at the end of the lead) and that it does not care. It gets more satisfaction in being ill mannered. I suppose there is still the you element that is controlling the lead. Maybe some mixed signals? But I will give a trainer enough respect to not go there right of the bat.

I had a dog that tried this and we quickly went to the old Koehler (and I recommend to read the article themselves and not assume) style loose lead walking. There was a self inflicted consequence to not paying attention to me by essentially running into the end of the lead. She learned quickly that her eyes served her better by paying attention to me (by the way, no jerking or anything from my end at all). After she got the basic idea I was able to then go to a more positive reward based plan. It got her out of the fixated stupid state initially anyway. And yes, I did a fair amount of walking. This was many years ago. Maybe today I would be as successful using only positive methods. But since a trainer with 23 years of combined experience has already covered all those bases, I just pointed out that one was not listed.

 

I would like to know what company you are working for please.

 

And while I am writing this I see your comment about the windshield?

 

Edited to add that the narrow minded does not just apply to owners but also to clients and bystanders that judge way to quick at times without knowing what all has been tried and have nothing better to do than meddle!

 

I've used compulsion training in the past and use it with the herding dogs that I train. Just where I have clients that run into me all over the place I would feel awkward using a method that I'm not allowed to tell them to use. Also, where she is a rescue I don't know her history and the few times I corrected an unrelated behavior prior to working where I do she basically shut down and would curl up in a completely submissive position at my feet. I have seen it work for many other dogs but I don't want to risk the bond we've developed and her trust to attempt it. Does that make sense?

 

We use a similar method with the dogs on the leash. If they pull we stop and don't pull back. Sometimes we change direction if that still isn't working but we reward when they are near us.

 

I will touch her to get her attention back when she misbehaves and will tell her when she is doing something wrong. I'm not allowed to have choke collars or prong collars in my ring at work so I would feel hypocritical to use them outside of class. Not that I think that compulsion is completely wrong, I just don't want to be one of those trainers that is a "do as I say not as I do" kind of instructor.

 

I know it isn't because Wish wants to misbehave that she is acting that way because she is afraid or something. She is one of the best behaved dogs I've owned and she is very eager to please.

 

OK, now that is where I would start. If she doesn't have the self control to be calm in the car, she definitely needs some self-control skill building to be able to work through the dog issue. I would do quite a lot with mat work and move to mat work in the car before ever moving to a place where triggers will be present.

 

I do think you are going to find CU to be just the thing, and it's all reinforcement based, so you don't have to worry about your job - in fact, learning CU just might make you a more valuable employee.

 

If you haven't gotten the book yet, I recommend that you actually get the CU puppy book, rather than the original. The puppy book is a lot clearer in how to introduce the games - the fact that your dog isn't a puppy is not a problem. If you've already gotten the original, that's fine - it's awesome - the puppy book is just a little more user friendly.

 

If you do get into CU and you have questions, feel free to PM me. If I can't help you, I could probably steer you to someone who could.

 

The windshield thing was unrelated to her reactivity (story below) but she does still freak out in the car when she sees another dog. She will bark even after we've driven past the other dog for at least another minute or so.

 

Thanks

 

<dons on flame retardant suit>

 

I have two reactive dogs. Correction doesn't work for one. Highly reinforcing reward based training does. So that's what I use.

 

Other dog is more spazy reactive. I also use highly reinforcing reward based training with her. I also use corrections. It works for her. Enrolled her in a basic OB class to work on self control. Started out with lots of high value treats and a prong collar. Hardly used the prong collar, but did a few times throughout the class. By the end of the class period I had a dog that went from spazy from the new environment/new people/new dogs to pretty happily focused on me and walking on a loose leash.

 

I'm going to continue to use a variety of methods with my young dog in class. I'll arrive early and get her calm before hand. I'll use Premack in reinforcing what I want. I'll do CU games and I'll have high value rewards and lots of them. But I'll also use a well timed correction.

 

Quite frankly, if you have a dog that is breaking your windshield, you could have a life or death situation on your hands. Is it worth your (or your dog's life) to rule out any sort of correction?

 

The windshield was an unrelated incident to her reactivity. I had an idiot cut me off and slammed on his breaks and even though Wish had been lying down in passenger seat (she cries if she is in the back and she is normally very good in the passenger seat) she had just shifted her position and got thrown into the windshield. I was just trying to joke a little bit but forgot none of you were in my life when that happened, whoops.

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Fair enough. Which is why it is always hard to say on the net! B)

 

I am not having the greatest day...so I should probably just leave it. And let me add here that this is not so much about you in particular either. :)

 

I don't struggle with the idea of being a hypocrite. Mainly because as a professional trainer I reserve the right to do things I tell my clients not to do. The reason they are my clients is because I know more. And I better. If I didn't, I would be a fraud for taking their money. As arrogant as that may sound, I have spent a lifetime learning and practicing. Hear me when I say, I do not know it all! But will honestly tell my clients that there are times when different methods are needed (and yes, I hear and understand your dilemma with the job) and that it takes some knowledge to do it in a constructive manner. In the horses I actually fight the battle often the other way. :D Treats? For spins? For sliding stops? Say it isn't so! Fortunately most think I am strange anyway so they just write it off as being me! Whatever works.

 

As someone that takes lessons with my dogs, I have to trust my trainer to do the same. At times (and those can be often depending on what dog... :P ) she is just much better equipped to handle and fix, tweak, communicate certain things than me. My pride sometimes gets a bit hurt but I am not stupid thinking that I can rival her timing and experience in her profession. That is why I carefully pick the folks I trust. And even then I don't trust blindly.

 

Let me add, that of course this mostly works only with clients that are established and on board with the general training program. And one more thing, I know how to train...I am not always the most diplomatic with my clients so, I am not saying this is a good way to do it.... ;)

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A dog that is that leash aggressive is telling you that it knows where you are (at the end of the lead) and that it does not care. It gets more satisfaction in being ill mannered.

 

What a sweeping generalisation and what negative language - "ill mannered" and "bad behaviour".

 

Yes, I have known dogs that can be corrected out of over reaction when on lead, but I have met far more that do it because they are fearful and where punishment would not only be unfair to the dog but would also run the risk of at best proving futile or at worst making matters worse.

 

It's vital to know the dog in question before suggesting anything that carries the risk of unwanted fallout.

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The windshield was an unrelated incident to her reactivity. I had an idiot cut me off and slammed on his breaks and even though Wish had been lying down in passenger seat (she cries if she is in the back and she is normally very good in the passenger seat) she had just shifted her position and got thrown into the windshield. I was just trying to joke a little bit but forgot none of you were in my life when that happened, whoops.

 

Ah! Got it.

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I'm sorry G Festerling, I asked because I thought that's what you meant but were trying to be nice. I don't think I'd use that "politically correct" term, I would of asked if she ever tried correcting her dog.

 

Here's what I see.... OP has a dog, She's been working with for 2 years trying to correct oops, I mean train, using everything she can think of, and she's a professional. Wish asks for advise from anyone here (some professionals and some not so professional)....2 years....and she's never tried correcting this dog? but Wish also mentions that she uses correction or compulsion with other dogs teaching other things....

Just feels sorta of Twilightish (and I mean the old tv show not the vampire movie)

 

Better just stop myself now.....

 

Wish, I really think along with everything else under the sun you've tried. You ought to give correction a try, even if you can't do it at work, you do go home with your dog? ...you sure won't break her for trying it.

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It's vital to know the dog in question before suggesting anything that carries the risk of unwanted fallout.

 

Why does giving the dog a correction (not beating the dog...once again) but a correction carry anymore risk than any other technique? for fallout? Or more risk than the dog already puts it's self in and for 2 years to boot?

Where's that bang your head emoticon???

 

Yes, I have known dogs that can be corrected out of over reaction when on lead, but I have met far more that do it because they are fearful and where punishment would not only be unfair to the dog but would also run the risk of at best proving futile or at worst making matters worse.

 

Most of the dogs I've met who pull on their leashes were either, misunderstanding the "rules" of a leash, young and or untrained or like GF says...rude dogs. I don't think anyone here is suggesting correcting or doing anything to a scared "reactive" dog, although I do think it is possible with excellent timing and easy corrections to "correct" a scared reactive dog with positive results. This dog after 2 years does not seem scared of the leash, just not understanding the message or plain ol' rude.

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