Leash "Agression"

[Root Beer]

Wish, I really think along with everything else under the sun you've tried. You ought to give correction a try, even if you can't do it at work, you do go home with your dog? ...you sure won't break her for trying it.

 

While Wish certainly has tried a good many different things, the fact that she hasn't tried LAT shows that she actually hasn't tried "everything else under the sun".

 

Just based on what she has described, I see some very obvious holes in the dog's foundation that CU, worked properly, will quite likely fill in very nicely. In spite of the length of the list that she made in the original post, there is actually quite a bit reinforcement based work that she apparently hasn't done.

 

An added bonus of trying the CU route is that she would retain the ability to maintain honesty and integrity in the agreement that she has made with her employer. And, personally, I commend Wish for wanting to do that.

[Pam Wolf]

I've had my rescue BC mix for 2 years. I've been training dogs for years both to herd and obedience but Wish has completely stumped me. Whenever she is on a leash or in my car and she sees another dog she barks like crazy, lunges and pulls. I've seen her do it both defensively and playfully. I've tried all sorts of techniques to try to get it to stop. It is the one thing that is keeping her from her AKC Canine Good Citizen and being able to come to work with me.

 

Background: according to the Humane Society I adopted her from she was attacked on a leash as a pup (don't know how accurate that is). She is incredibly friendly off leash and is the queen of both doggy day care and the dog park. The only time she barks there is when a new dog joins the group and doesn't start playing immediately.

 

I'm just looking for addition techniques to try. So far I've done:

 

• Redirection
  
• Behavioral Adjustment (taking her away/bringing her back)
  
• Walking her with another trainer and running away from her whenever she barks (she's super attached)
  
• Desensitization
  
• Trust building exercises
  

 

I'm really getting frustrated. I want to be able to do agility, obedience, even herding with her but I cannot bring her anywhere around other dogs where she is going to be on a leash. Just the walk to bring her to/from doggy day camp is tiring because she does that for every single dog she sees.

 

I've been working with two collegues of mine who have been working as obedience trainers for 6 and 12 years and we've exhausted our combined 25 years of experience trying to figure this out.

 

PLEASE HELP!

 

Have you tried counterconditioning?

 

try to keep below her threshold at first and gradually increase stimulus til she can handle any

[mum24dog]

While Wish certainly has tried a good many different things, the fact that she hasn't tried LAT shows that she actually hasn't tried "everything else under the sun".

 

Just based on what she has described, I see some very obvious holes in the dog's foundation that CU, worked properly, will quite likely fill in very nicely. In spite of the length of the list that she made in the original post, there is actually quite a bit reinforcement based work that she apparently hasn't done.

 

An added bonus of trying the CU route is that she would retain the ability to maintain honesty and integrity in the agreement that she has made with her employer. And, personally, I commend Wish for wanting to do that.

 

Counterconditioning by the use of LAT works far better than redirection IME, having used it myself with a dog that was showing a combination of general lack of socialisation and fear and one with 100% fear of unknown dogs after being attacked as a youngster. Both are much, much better now and would be even more so if I had been more system,atic and persistent.

 

Much against my better judgment I did try correction with the first one before I understood the extent of the fear component in his behaviour and it had zero effect.

[Blackdawgs]

I have a rescue that used to be very leash aggressive. She would go off if the dog was a block away.

 

She was so over threshold that we were not able to give a correction strong enough to make an immediate or lasting impression on her. If we had gone the correction route, the next step probably would have been a shock collar on a pretty high setting.

 

I wound up consulting with a behaviorist, putting her on prozac, and doing counter conditioning and desensitization. She is now doing well, is going to agility classes and is doing some trialing.

[mum24dog]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting correcting or doing anything to a scared "reactive" dog

 

But that is precisely what anyone suggesting correction could be doing. I don't know for certain but would much prefer to play it safe in giving advice to the owner of a dog I have never seen.

 

The OP does know the dog and said

 

I know it isn't because Wish wants to misbehave that she is acting that way because she is afraid or something.

 

More likely to be a correct assessment, taken with the OP's description of her behaviour,than

 

This dog after 2 years does not seem scared of the leash, just not understanding the message or plain ol' rude.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that she is afraid of the lead per se but it is common for dogs to be afraid of the fact that being on lead rules out the flight option, leaving them only with the choice of fight or fiddle about. And that is why dogs that react on lead can often cope better with other dogs off lead.

 

If you have only ever dealt with unruly or rude dogs you probably will have a good measure of success using correction to suppress the unwanted behaviour, but as Root Beer explained earlier, if you try to work with a dog that is out of its tree it cannot help what it is doing and neither reward nor punishment will have any effect unless the punishment is severe enough to get through the out of control panic. A leash pop isn't going to work in those circumstances.

 

Whether you are using positive reinforcement or positive punishment(however mild) the dog needs to be under threshold to respond. Once it has kicked off it's too late with a dog that reacts to anything in an extreme way.

[mum24dog]

I have a rescue that used to be very leash aggressive. She would go off if the dog was a block away.

 

She was so over threshold that we were not able to give a correction strong enough to make an immediate or lasting impression on her. If we had gone the correction route, the next step probably would have been a shock collar on a pretty high setting.

 

I wound up consulting with a behaviorist, putting her on prozac, and doing counter conditioning and desensitization. She is now doing well, is going to agility classes and is doing some trialing.

 

Sounds pretty much like our rescue BC when we got him, and the way we dealt with his behaviour but without the Prozac.

 

He's now in the top grade of agility here in the UK.

[Blackdawgs]

The DVM behaviorist diagnosed my dog with generalized anxiety disorder based on the dog's behavior in my house. The behaviorist never actually saw the leash aggression. I think that the diagnosis is correct, the dog became less clingy post-prozac and much of her guarding behavior (me, objects) disapeared.

 

In terms of the leash aggression, the prozac helped my dog to come back to planet earth faster between outbursts thereby giving me a window to work on behavioral modification.

 

In retrospect, I'm sure that the initial few leash aggression episodes were panic attacks, but the problem is that the behavior can become very self- reinforcing for the dog and it can look like they are enjoying their outbursts and perhaps on some level they are.

 

It is a tough problem to crack, but I really think that desensitization-counterconditioning and CU is the way to go. At worst, one won't do any harm using these techniques.

[Wish]

An added bonus of trying the CU route is that she would retain the ability to maintain honesty and integrity in the agreement that she has made with her employer. And, personally, I commend Wish for wanting to do that.

 

Thank you

 

Have you tried counterconditioning?

 

try to keep below her threshold at first and gradually increase stimulus til she can handle any

 

I have a little. It is just hard to find a place where she is below threshold.

 

I have a rescue that used to be very leash aggressive. She would go off if the dog was a block away.

 

She was so over threshold that we were not able to give a correction strong enough to make an immediate or lasting impression on her. If we had gone the correction route, the next step probably would have been a shock collar on a pretty high setting.

 

I wound up consulting with a behaviorist, putting her on prozac, and doing counter conditioning and desensitization. She is now doing well, is going to agility classes and is doing some trialing.

 

I've been trying to do some desensitization at home where she's safe. She watches tv so I've been playing movies with dogs for her to get her used to seeing dogs. Sometimes I'll have the leash on her in the house while she watches sometimes she's free. Depends on what I'm trying to do.

[urge to herd]

Thank you :)/>/>

 

 

 

I have a little. It is just hard to find a place where she is below threshold.

 

 

 

I've been trying to do some desensitization at home where she's safe. She watches tv so I've been playing movies with dogs for her to get her used to seeing dogs. Sometimes I'll have the leash on her in the house while she watches sometimes she's free. Depends on what I'm trying to do.

 

Check out these YouTube videos of Vanya, a pit bull rescued and trained by Nancy Langst.

 

If I recall correctly, Nancy is a scientist, studying behavior? I wouldn't bet the mortgage on that last part, but she's done incredible work with Vanya.

 

One of Vanya's biggest issues was dog reactivity, and Nancy came up with the idea of using a large stuffed dog, at a distance, behind a fence, to start working on the reactivity. Vanya would initially see the stuffed toy and have a big reaction, but got much better with Nancy's work. 99% of what Nancy did was CU type stuff. Little to no correction or compulsion.

 

I think there are about 20 videos, and you might be able to search for the 'stuffed doggy' ones.

 

Good luck, and thanks for working so hard for Wish to be calmer.

 

ETA - just looked at the post, didn't realize the video itself would come up. I intended for the address only, so you could check out the whole series. Anyway, it's a quick fix if you want to follow up.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Wish]

Check out these YouTube videos of Vanya, a pit bull rescued and trained by Nancy Langst.

 

If I recall correctly, Nancy is a scientist, studying behavior? I wouldn't bet the mortgage on that last part, but she's done incredible work with Vanya.

 

One of Vanya's biggest issues was dog reactivity, and Nancy came up with the idea of using a large stuffed dog, at a distance, behind a fence, to start working on the reactivity. Vanya would initially see the stuffed toy and have a big reaction, but got much better with Nancy's work. 99% of what Nancy did was CU type stuff. Little to no correction or compulsion.

 

I think there are about 20 videos, and you might be able to search for the 'stuffed doggy' ones.

 

Good luck, and thanks for working so hard for Wish to be calmer.

 

ETA - just looked at the post, didn't realize the video itself would come up. I intended for the address only, so you could check out the whole series. Anyway, it's a quick fix if you want to follow up.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

 

Thanks. I'll check those out

[mum24dog]

In retrospect, I'm sure that the initial few leash aggression episodes were panic attacks, but the problem is that the behavior can become very self- reinforcing for the dog and it can look like they are enjoying their outbursts and perhaps on some level they are.

 

I think it's more likely to be the fact that an aggressive display from a frightened dog can work to make the scary thing go away than the dog enjoying it in the sense that most people would understand. Self rewarding in that it is successful and I suppose it thereby gives the dog some sense of control of the situation. Is that a sort of enjoyment? Maybe you could interpret it as that.

 

It doesn't alter the basic problem though, and doesn't make the dog feel any more kindly disposed towards the scary thing. Correction just deals with the symptoms not the cause with a fearful dog.

 

The most important thing is to know what you are dealing with rather than making assumptions on face value. I hate it when dogs are labelled "bad" or "naughty" as if they are deliberately doing what they do to annoy us and they have the same concepts of right and wrong that we do. "Right" to a dog is just what works in any given situation.

 

But obviously you know that already having been through it and come out the other end with a happier dog. All credit to you for putting in the money and effort to do it.

[rushdoggie]

I think it's more likely to be the fact that an aggressive display from a frightened dog can work to make the scary thing go away than the dog enjoying it in the sense that most people would understand. Self rewarding in that it is successful and I suppose it thereby gives the dog some sense of control of the situation. Is that a sort of enjoyment? Maybe you could interpret it as that.

 

It doesn't alter the basic problem though, and doesn't make the dog feel any more kindly disposed towards the scary thing. Correction just deals with the symptoms not the cause with a fearful dog.

 

The most important thing is to know what you are dealing with rather than making assumptions on face value. I hate it when dogs are labelled "bad" or "naughty" as if they are deliberately doing what they do to annoy us and they have the same concepts of right and wrong that we do. "Right" to a dog is just what works in any given situation.

 

But obviously you know that already having been through it and come out the other end with a happier dog. All credit to you for putting in the money and effort to do it.

 

This.

 

 

And a correction can make the scary thing even more scary because not only does it scare the dog, but in his eyes it makes his owner angry too thus making his emotional reaction even stronger.