Lets Talk About Breeders...please?

[Alchemist]

I swore to myself I'd stay out of this from this point forward. But.... Gloria nailed it.

 

Please. I'd really hate anyone to infer that a photo of a dog shown in close proximity to sheep (as you can see from the recommended breeder's website) denotes a dog with great working skills. You can scour YouTube and find videos of Rottweilers, poodles, I'm sure even Chihuahuas "working" sheep. (Heck, my dog's trainer has a CAT who thinks it works sheep. I kid you not. I've seen a YouTube of a rabbit working sheep for that matter). Doesn't mean they have any skills. Please don't confuse a few still photos or even short video clips with any evidence of real working ability. I saw photos on the website of the breeder referred to above that for sure didn't give ME any "warm fuzzies" as to working ability. How about real accomplishments? USBCHA placements? Any Open level dogs originating from this breeder? Or is it all AKC "herding instinct" type garbage? Not at all the same, sorry. These dogs may have great temperaments. But... as my dog's trainer often says to her dogs, half-jokingly, when they try to climb into her lap at trials, "if I *wanted* a Golden Retriever..." If temperament is the single factor that's foremost in your list of criteria, then GET a Golden Retriever!

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again: any breeder who registers with AKC is enough of a red flag that that, right there, it would be a deal-breaker for me. It signifies that they don't place the working ability of the Border collie at a premium. 'Nuff said.

 

There's been a lot of discussion here of "socialization", of "temperament". As others have said, most breeders of working (= trialing) Border collies I've known invest a lot of effort in socialization of puppies. If you don't, then it's hard to imagine that a pup will grow into a dog who has a genuine desire to work with (= please, "biddability") the handler. And if you don't invest effort in socializing pups, then they're a mess when you bring them to a trial and they're in close proximity to other dogs in strange quarters.

 

A lot boils down to temperament, which I believe is largely hard-wired. For sure, you can derail a lot of what would otherwise be a low-key personality by allowing a pup to be attacked by a strange dog during a "fear period", or by isolating it during its formative months. But other things being equal, if you want an adult dog with a good temperament, seek parents of such. So, if you want a working-bred Border collie puppy of good temperament, then go to sheepdog trials, meet handlers, meet dogs, ask around of prospective litters, assuming you like the parents. Hang around for years (if need be) to ensure that you're not falling victim to first impressions. The advantage of this strategy is that you're supporting breeders who (if you select appropriately) are striving to improve the breed.

 

And if you're not sure how to assess temperament in a puppy (which I personally think is fraught with uncertainty), or even in an adult dog, seek to acquire a dog (e.g., via rescue) at a sufficiently advanced age that you won't need to agonize about the "nature vs nurture" issues - either "what you see is what you get", or "you may not adopt the dog you thought you wanted, but you adopt the dog that you need". At least that way you're at reduced risk of ending up with one of the health issues that *can* bedevil Border collies, at non-insignificant probabilities.

[SS Cressa]

Wasn't Hollowshot at one time heavy into herding? Or am I thinking of a different breeder?

 

I thought she used to use her dogs on her livestock. She had a couple thousands sheep.

 

I am not sure when she stop and switched to conformation or whatever she does now. I never cared for her site. Not much info about her dogs.

 

And I don't know much about TNT. I know they have produced Cajen who I heard people rave about. I know puppy buyers who also adore their Cagen puppies(always good news when you have an awesome dog who can throw that onto their pups). But if they are breeding OnOff dogs... I have heard negative things about that breeder and their pratices. I might be leary of their dogs offsprings. (Although they seem to have some nice dogs! *shrug*) I don't know any OnOff dogs just what I have heard mutiple people say about them and their breeder.

 

BTW If you just ask Kim from Powertripp she would be able to tell you about if her dog's offspring can work or not. I am pretty sure she has sold some to working home. I just don't personally know them so I wouldn't have a clue. The pups that I know who have been on sheep were own by agility people who were more interested in agility than herding. I know they were impressed and so was their trainer on how well their dogs did. I know they want to do more herding but their passion is agility.

 

I don't always pay atention to the pedigree since that doesn't prove anything about who the dog is. Seeing the dog's ability at the task at hand tells you more about it than a piece of paper. And seeing that dog being able to throw that same type of ability on its offspring is what most people would hope for I would think.

[juliepoudrier]

BTW If you just ask Kim from Powertripp she would be able to tell you about if her dog's offspring can work or not. I am pretty sure she has sold some to working home.

 

I think the better questions would be asked of others: people who have pups, people who have seen pups, etc. I have no doubt that if I were to approach the Powertripp folks or any others of their ilk they would be very happy to tell me their dogs can "do it all." And if I fall for that, then shame on me. I'd rather hear from someone who owns one and is willing to give me an honest assessment of the dog's usefulness on the farm, and a trial record other than AKC.

 

But some folks will never get it.

 

J.

[Maralynn]

 

There's been a lot of discussion here of "socialization", of "temperament". As others have said, most breeders of working (= trialing) Border collies I've known invest a lot of effort in socialization of puppies. If you don't, then it's hard to imagine that a pup will grow into a dog who has a genuine desire to work with (= please, "biddability") the handler. And if you don't invest effort in socializing pups, then they're a mess when you bring them to a trial and they're in close proximity to other dogs in strange quarters.

 

While I agree that good breeders do a good job with nice basic socialization, I'll also point out that with the three Border Collies I've had so far, NONE of them had a good deal of positive early socialization. Well, Kipp probably did at his breeders, but once he was sold the first time that stopped.

 

All three turned into dogs that really want to please and are pretty easy to work with.

 

I wouldn't recommend treat a dog the way mine were all treated in their formative months, but dogs are resilient and Border Collies as a breed want to please.

 

A lot boils down to temperament, which I believe is largely hard-wired. For sure, you can derail a lot of what would otherwise be a low-key personality by allowing a pup to be attacked by a strange dog during a "fear period", or by isolating it during its formative months. But other things being equal, if you want an adult dog with a good temperament, seek parents of such. So, if you want a working-bred Border collie puppy of good temperament, then go to sheepdog trials, meet handlers, meet dogs, ask around of prospective litters, assuming you like the parents.

 

yes, yes, yes!!!

 

3/4 of the reason i wanted Kipp was because I saw his grandfather work. Steady, no nonsense hard working and super nice/calm/friendly around people. This was after the dog had been through 6-7 (working) homes after being imported. People couldn't handle his drive and tried all manner of things to get it under control - including 2x4's and ecollars. One of his owners said that he beat that dog 'til he bled.

 

But nobody screwed up his temperament. He finally got into a home that understood him and he was an awesome dog.

 

I wanted a dog like that. So, after the breeder took him back from his first home, I took on a keen but unsocialized "what's in it for me", cat obsessed 20 m/o dog that could care less about what a person thought because people were never a big part of his life.

 

I ended up with a dog that wants to please, loves to train, lives to work and tries hard. I honestly can't be the only person in the world that has experienced something like that.

 

And then I read about how people want a pup that has spent all of it's life in socialization boot camp so it can be a successful dog and and I go "huh?!?!?"

 

Good genetics + good training = good dogs. Find parents that are darn good workers who would love to work sheep anywhere all day long, has good rapport with the handler and are neutral to social around other people and you'll probably end up with a pup that will excel at anything.

 

Anybody remember Kat and her dog Dazzle? Dazzle was born in a barn on a working farm. While I'm sure she had good early handling/basic socialization, I highly doubt she went through a super puppy program in her first few weeks. She just had nice genetics and a great trainer.

 

http://www.agilitypup.com/videos.html

[waffles]

I think the better questions would be asked of others: people who have pups, people who have seen pups, etc. I have no doubt that if I were to approach the Powertripp folks or any others of their ilk they would be very happy to tell me their dogs can "do it all." And if I fall for that, then shame on me. I'd rather hear from someone who owns one and is willing to give me an honest assessment of the dog's usefulness on the farm, and a trial record other than AKC.

 

But some folks will never get it.

 

J.

 

 

I agree. I am sure her dogs are nice sports dog but it is obvious what she breeds for (nice photos of dogs with full flowing coats, catching frisbees, doing agility, etc.). None of her own dogs she breeds work to a high standard or seemingly, work at all. It is not about the 'lines' she breeds from, what do her own breeding dogs do? ...they appear to do sports, and sports only. Most people on this board do not agree with that, and on top of it she registers AKC.

 

The photos of her dog's pups 'working' all look like instinct tests or similar. Like someone else said, they are still photos of a dog behind 3 sheep with a handler next to them. None of those photos look like dogs doing real work. I am sure her dogs are nice and she is nice as well but it is glaringly obvious what she breeds for and that, is what most on this board disagree with.

 

BTW, I LOVE the comment about getting an 'original'....that made me smile. Couldn't agree more.

[Tea]

WOW! A RABBIT working sheep. How is he on pairs? Maybe I'd better outcross with a tough bunny.

 

I agree with Gloria, BTW.

[Sue R]

I think the better questions would be asked of others: people who have pups, people who have seen pups, etc. I have no doubt that if I were to approach the Powertripp folks or any others of their ilk they would be very happy to tell me their dogs can "do it all." And if I fall for that, then shame on me. I'd rather hear from someone who owns one and is willing to give me an honest assessment of the dog's usefulness on the farm, and a trial record other than AKC.

 

But some folks will never get it.

 

J.

Just about any backyard, mill, sport or show breeder will be able to point to working-bred dogs, and maybe not all that many generations back. After all, *all* of these dogs, show, sport, pet, mass-produced, at some point have been bred from working dogs - a few or many generations back. But working ability, if you don't really breed for it intelligently as your reason for breeding, is lost as a real, complete, useful (in a real work situation) trait pretty quickly. Period.

 

As for folks who say their dogs "do herding" - I'd ask, at what level? After all, I "did agility" with a couple of my dogs but that says nothing about how much, how well, how successfully, how anything. We just dabbled and had fun with it as an activity. I should (and would) no sooner claim to be an "agility person" with "agility dogs" than most people who have "done herding" should claim to have dogs that will be good at working with livestock, and whose dogs have offspring that will be good also, because they will probably be minimally useful at best in a real-world situation. In the AKC world, well, maybe that's another story - they may be standouts.

 

Sorry but no defense of any sport breeder or AKC breeder is going to fly with me, or most people here. But I guess it works for a few people, as evidenced by a post or two in this topic. Some folks do seem to never get it.

[SoFreshSoClean]

I think the better questions would be asked of others: people who have pups, people who have seen pups, etc. I have no doubt that if I were to approach the Powertripp folks or any others of their ilk they would be very happy to tell me their dogs can "do it all." And if I fall for that, then shame on me. I'd rather hear from someone who owns one and is willing to give me an honest assessment of the dog's usefulness on the farm, and a trial record other than AKC.

 

But some folks will never get it.

 

J.

 

I know 2 dogs sired by Tripp. I like them, they are nice. That being said, if I were to "come to the dark side" and get a Border Collie - I wouldn't get one. But that's b/c every border collie I really like comes from ranch/work/herding trial folks.

 

The two dogs above did their HIC thingies at a couple of those big dogs events with lots of stuff to do (dock diving, flyball, etc). I don't think that either could/would really herd.

 

______

 

Someone else asked about Powertripp's relation to OffOn. PT has a bitch from a On Target litter (Trestle x Sooner) but she's spayed. I don't think that they have a relationship or are even "friendly" with each other's breeding dogs.

[Alchemist]

WOW! A RABBIT working sheep. How is he on pairs? Maybe I'd better outcross with a tough bunny.

 

 

 

 

Tea, how did you miss this one? (and make sure you have the soundtrack on; it's almost as much fun as the video):

 

[Alchemist]

 

But some folks will never get it.

 

 

Yep. As the saying goes, "running over a flat cat just makes it flatter", but I applaud you for persisting in hopes of convincing lurkers who may be educable.

[Cynthia P]

Wasn't Hollowshot at one time heavy into herding? Or am I thinking of a different breeder?

 

I thought she used to use her dogs on her livestock. She had a couple thousands sheep.

 

 

Yes her husband had a lot of sheep, however they stopped producing lamb and went to cash crops about 6+ years ago. John, her husband, died last year. She loves doing the conformation and has done for as long as I've lived in the area (10 years).

 

I have instinct tested a number of her dogs breeding and will tell you that I have not had one that was "easy" to start. No one I know of in the region buys her dogs to participate in working and she would tell you that right off the mark that she does not produce dogs for working any more. I have seen a couple of the Hollowshot dogs on a farm that would gather the sheep nicely, but they don't want them to do that as they do flyball. Damn dogs are always running out to gather the sheep

 

Her daughter breeds and holds the belief that you can have a "pretty" dog and it can work, she does goosework and some of her dogs are quite useful.

 

Take all of these comments from those of us that have been around the dogs. Everyone has valid points

[SS Cressa]

Thanks for clarifying!

 

 

Yes her husband had a lot of sheep, however they stopped producing lamb and went to cash crops about 6+ years ago. John, her husband, died last year. She loves doing the conformation and has done for as long as I've lived in the area (10 years).

 

I have instinct tested a number of her dogs breeding and will tell you that I have not had one that was "easy" to start. No one I know of in the region buys her dogs to participate in working and she would tell you that right off the mark that she does not produce dogs for working any more. I have seen a couple of the Hollowshot dogs on a farm that would gather the sheep nicely, but they don't want them to do that as they do flyball. Damn dogs are always running out to gather the sheep :)/>

 

Her daughter breeds and holds the belief that you can have a "pretty" dog and it can work, she does goosework and some of her dogs are quite useful.

 

Take all of these comments from those of us that have been around the dogs. Everyone has valid points