Lets Talk About Breeders...please?

[WildFlower]

As to selling to a beginer, i am not against that( we all started there for God sake) if they are already working with a good trainer and have paid some dues on the way to handling a dog. Motivated and passionate beginers( ranch and trial) are wonderful and necessary to the breed. How cool it must be to breed a dog that a beginer takes and does well with. Very satisfying i bet.

 

Lana,

 

Your whole post was wonderful. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. But I thought your paragraph above was worth repeating. I am newer handler and I appreciate that many good handlers and working folks feel that way. That's part of what makes the sheepdog community so great.

 

I hope that you will share a few pictures of Mint and her litter. I think Mint is a great looking girl!

[Alchemist]

 

As to selling to a beginer, i am not against that( we all started there for God sake) if they are already working with a good trainer and have paid some dues on the way to handling a dog. Motivated and passionate beginers( ranch and trial) are wonderful and necessary to the breed. How cool it must be to breed a dog that a beginer takes and does well with. Very satisfying i bet.

 

I also steer these people to dog lines i know are easy to start and easy to handle. Most people want that. I usually know of a good litter i can tell people about when i get a call/email. I would much rather sell started dogs than pups to ranchers or trialers. I know what the dog is and feel i can find the best fit for dog and person that way.

 

I also talk up rescue whenever i can,so many nice dogs need a home.

 

 

And these, Lana (along with your awesome dogs and TOTALLY fabulous kids - anyone else catch them being interviewed in this year's Finals?) are some of the reasons why I rank you amongst those in the sheepdog world I'd really love to get a chance to meet in person someday. Thank you for all you do for the breed we all love!

[mum24dog]

I, too, am not interested in "ticking off" a series of nitpicking "guidelines" but just getting a well-bred pup from well-proven parents and a responsible, breeds-for-work-only breeder.

 

Whilst I agree with the first part, much of the bad reputation of BCs is a result of dogs being kept on the farm and not socialised more widely. Fine if that's all a dog is ever going to know but if that dog ever finds itself in a different and more challenging environment, as many do when they find themselves surplus to requirements, then it will likely adapt more readily if it has had a more varied upbringing.

 

If a dog is intended for life as an urban sport dog then the considerations are going to be different than for an isolated working dog.

 

What I don't believe in is being obsessive about the whole business of socialisation. Do enough but not too much for that particular pup; it doesn't need to be bombarded with experiences it may never meet again. Don't just follow what others who don't know you, your dog or your life tell you. Don't sweat the details, just look at the bigger picture of what you are aiming at. If you miss something out and your dog spooks if it meets it in future life it doesn't usually take much to get over it for an averagely confident dog with an averagely capable owner.

 

The majority of dogs I meet that belong to Joe Public are just fine, and most are raised by people who have never read a behaviour book in their lives. Noone has told them that raising a pup is difficult and for most it isn't.

[Lana]

 

If a dog is intended for life as an urban sport dog then the considerations are going to be different than for an isolated working dog.

 

 

While i agree with most of your post, and some very good points too, i do not know many of these people of which you speak. All i really know are working breeders, and most all do not fit the "isolated working dog."

 

I think it is an urban myth from those that breed for other reasons than to work livestock.

[mum24dog]

While i agree with most of your post, and some very good points too, i do not know many of these people of which you speak. All i really know are working breeders, and most all do not fit the "isolated working dog."

 

I think it is an urban myth from those that breed for other reasons than to work livestock.

 

If you only know working breeders then maybe you don't meet the dogs that they produce when they are out of their comfort zone. You have said that you wouldn't sell to a sport home so you won't know how the dogs that you produce would fare in that world with the level of socialisation you give them. It's suitable for what you are aiming at.

 

Rescues here are full of working bred dogs that spook at the slightest thing because they have like as not hardly ever been off the farm, if ever. Now they are not wanted and have to learn to adapt. These are the dogs that chase everything that moves, are noise sensitive and don't tolerate strange humans or dogs. And they are the dogs most likely to be euthanised.(Plenty of well adjusted dogs in rescue too, don't get me wrong.)

 

Working bred dogs are the majority in my area - we have more working bred rescue and farm bought collies in our agility club than anything else. It's what we're used to and we have to help the owners pick up the pieces.

 

And we know which top triallers some of these dogs came from originally.

 

Not an urban myth at all for us, especially our members from farming backgrounds going back generations. We try to steer people just wanting a pet away from getting the sort of collie they'd be likely to get round here. I avoid breeders of any kind so don't know what they say amongst themselves. I doubt I'd find it very interesting.

[juliepoudrier]

I think the point you're missing Pam--and the one Lana was trying to make--is that strictly working bred dogs DO get off the farm. Maybe not all of them, but many of them. Many of us make a point of taking them out for socializing, just not to the (IMO excessive) extent that a couple of posters here have made a requirement for any pup they would purchase. Most of us who live on farms do not live in complete isolation. People come here to buy lambs; in my case, often these people are non-English speaking Hispanics who bring along their English-speaking small children as interpreters. These people are my clientele, so even if in general my dogs wouldn't be around children, I recognize the importance of those children who might appear at my door and make sure my dogs aren't freaked out by them. I am part of a hiking group that allows dogs and that includes some very urban people and urban dogs. I make a point of taking my youngster on hikes so she can meet people and strange dogs. Yes, it can cause some embarrassment, like the time a very nice young German shepherd tried to greet her and she shrieked and jumped off the side of the (ver low) bridge into the water, ;)/> but many of us who raise and work dogs aren't laboring under the illusion that our dogs don't need socialization.

 

As always, generalizations are just that. For every farm whose dogs never leave and never experience anything else, I am sure there are urban/suburban dogs who never leave their homes (save perhaps for a trip to the vet) and so are no more socialized than the largely mythical completely unsocialized working border collie. People's opinions will always be colored by their own experiences, and if you have only ever met unsocialized working dogs, then it's natural for you to assume that most such dogs are unsocialized. I have to say, though, that when I was in South Wales visiting farms, I saw a lot of kids playing with puppies, so all was not dogs left in the barn never experiencing any other part of life but work....

 

Here in the US, there is a lot of intermingling of people from different groups. Maybe not so much out on the western Range, but I know you've seen posts by people like Kristi Oikawa here, who runs successfully in both agility and sheepdog trials. She's not the only one. We meet folks who run dogs in agility on the sheepdog trial field. We have agility friends and we go to their trials to support them. Some of them come to us for stockdog training. The great divide you describe in your area doesn't seem to be such a great divide here. People who get dogs from working breeders with the intent to do sports aren't thinking that they must "pick up the pieces" of poorly raised animals. It really sounds like your personal experiences have led you to believe that working dog breeders are universally bad, when I'm sure intellectually you know that's not the case. It may be the case in your region, but I don't think it's universal.

 

J.

[Lana]

Yes the "shelter is full" of "big hats" etc etc card..it must be played i guess. Thou i thought it obvious i was not speaking of those people. Who sadly do exisist.

 

I should have said good breeders, but i thought that was evident from my post. The world is full of back yard breeders claiming to breed "working dogs." A handful of dog broke cows/sheep and a dog with some "working lines" in the pedigree, is all it takes to sell dogs on the internet.

 

Trial dogs have their issues, rancher dogs have their issues. No "group" is immune to that and to claim other wise is disengenous and not good for the dogs.

 

 

Some people breed too many dogs, for many bad reasons. Some claim to be working breeders, i submit they are ALL not GOOD breeders.Period. I don't justify bad breeding because working dogs/lines or big hats are invoved.

 

I love, respect and need the working Border Collie. They are my passion and are second only to our children and our ranch.

 

 

I admire and respect people who rescue dogs. I know many and consider them angels.

 

I am out of this topic, militant rescue folks...pass

 

I do hope the og poster finds a nice dog. I am always happy to have a pm to steer people to a good dog if i can.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Well, I live on a farm and raise/train/compete/sell working bred Border Collies....how socialized are my dogs?.....well, they mob and throw themselves at visitor expecting a treat, pets or even sit in their laps? All of my pups get extensive people time, some go to student's home to be handled by children or go to work with another downtown Seattle. I drag them to the pet stores and to folks parties. The other working breeders that I know, Lana being one, do extensive puppy raising. Her children are the best for handling a pup! Not to mention she breeds for the right reason.

 

I've done rescue for years and most of the rescues are from BYB like Lana stated, (have a few head of stock) and touted themselves as real breeders but no health checks either or just plain BYB. Another rescue turn-ins are sports bred dogs. It runs from all over the map. It might be different in England as you stated.

 

The pups that I have bought from working breeders have been well socialized. What 27 point puppy check do they do? Probably not the list from above but good, plain old fashioned puppy raising. A pup from Lana is going to not only be well bred but well-child raised. She raises dogs that anyone who be proud to own.

 

Do you homework. See the parents at work and at home. I mean real work not pushing three sheep around but real farm work and also trials (Open). See the farm/house. See how the dogs interact. See what they have done (proven). See people who have gotten pups/dogs from them. See what the people are “REALLY” breeding for….if anything else other than, ”Working ability” , then RUN away.

 

I am not going to get into rescue vs sport vs working breed…as that has been hashed out time and time again…..but do your homework.

[ThunderHill]

I've had dogs from the public shelter, from private rescues, from known but accidental breedings (both crossbred and purebred), and dogs from litters planned for years. Every single one has been a unique individual with special strengths and weaknesses, and I've garnered many experiences (both treasured and exasperating -- and some quite costly) along the way.

 

I've loved every dog. But I admit, I've gradually found myself going over to the planned parenthood division.

 

Some of that is driven by the fact that these days, I do have a need for practical stock-working partners with at least moderate skills. I also happen to like starting my dogs from pups. And I do believe that your chance of getting a reliable working partner for the farm is significantly better if you pick a pup from decent working parents with basic temperaments you find agreeable.

 

But even before I truly needed a working partner, I found myself inclined toward dogs of documented parentage. (Including pups from known but accidental breedings.) Not because they would be better dogs on a stand-alone basis. But because it gave me a human network to tap into, and also access to valuable wider information about the dog's specific background.

 

A good breeder can be a valuable resource in her/his own right. An interested ear to brag to when things are going well; a shoulder to cry on when things are going to hell; a reservoir of relevant experience to draw on; and a fellow traveler to swap stories with. I've gained several great friends this way, along with some very nice dogs. I've also become friends with the owners of littermates. It's fun and often educational to occasionally hear what the brothers and sisters and other relations are getting up to, across the years.

 

In addition, the more data you have about your dog's extended family, the better. If there's a particular working style you favor, best to look for that style among close relatives.

 

Having family documentation can also be useful when health and temperament questions arise. A few weeks ago I lost a dog (of another breed) to hemangiosarcoma. Even before the test results came back, that was the disease I suspected, because I was aware of a strong family history and how it had presented. Sadly, a friend then lost a littermate of my dog exactly one week later to the same disease. I don't know if she was any better prepared because of what had just happened to my boy; but certainly we were able to commiserate with each other, and with yet another friend who had lost an uncle of our dogs to the same cancer several years earlier.

 

Another of my dogs is an exceptionally good-looking boy with a very fine pedigree on paper. He'll never make an Open trial dog, but he's completely honest, and quite useful around the farm and behind the scenes at trials. He slows down dramatically when it's hot. He was wonderful with children and strangers until he was about two years old, when suddenly he began to judge both by a rigorous private system which I have yet to decode. And yet, considered individually, I'm very pleased with his working ability, because as it's turned out, his littermates are barely interested in stock at all. I keep a special eye on him in the summer, but I don't mind that he slows down, because he has littermates with actual heat collapse issues. And although he may be mildly wary of random adults and quite spooked by most children, compared to some other family members he's a model of sociability. I see his shortcomings clearly and yet I appreciate him all the more because he seems to have risen above his genetic heritage. And finally, knowing what I do about the rest of his family, I would never, ever breed him -- even though he's a gorgeous dog with a great heart, useful chore skills and an excellent pedigree.

 

There's no guarantee that having a dog with a pedigree will bring you any special advantages. There's no guarantee that all breeders will turn out to be clear communicators or reliable resources, much less good friends. But there are some potential advantages to having access to the network behind the documented family tree, which have nothing to do with the merits of any individual dog.

 

Just another angle.

 

Liz Sharpe in arctic central NY (USA)

[bcnewe2]

My pup was one of those not off the farm dogs, got her at 4 months. She is nervous by nature but about as even keeled as I've ever seen. She handles vets, stores, kids and just about anything I throw at her these days with grace and very little issues. She will always be on the nervous side, it's her nature but I think she would of been that way had she had oodles of puppy socialization. Her sister that I know is an outgoing pup, greets everyone she sees, raised the same way as Faye. Faye picks and chooses who she throws herself at and if you're in the good to know group watch out, she's dangerous with her lovies.

 

Do you wonder if the dogs we find in shelters and rescue that are messed up are in rescue or shelters because of that? Not saying that as a generalization but I have seen lots of rescue or shelter dogs (not just bc's) that are messed up and on the other hand lots of dog in rescue just waiting for their new forever homes that are perfect dogs.

 

I also think it's a great place to drop off unwanted pups from byb's and the unethical breeders we all talk about. Where else are these unwanted pups going to go?

 

If I didn't need proven working dogs, I'd rescue, I have rescued and between the 2 (planned breeding and rescue) have gotten great dogs and not so great dogs from both!

 

I think the genetic vs. nurture thing is about equal in my observations.

[Mark Billadeau]

Not an urban myth at all for us, especially our members from farming backgrounds going back generations. We try to steer people just wanting a pet away from getting the sort of collie they'd be likely to get round here.

Like any other trait, temperaments run in family lines. Couple this with geography and breeders who do not travel far from home and breeds will develop regionally common traits. I've seen this situation here in some breeds where the common temperament differs between the great lakes region and the south east. Before I moved from IL to SC, I held opinions on several breeds based upon the individual dogs I encountered in the mid-west; my opinion on these breeds changed after I moved to SC based upon the individual dogs I encountered in another region.

[gonetotervs]

When I got my first Terv and my first puppy ever (only had a rescue adult before then) I used a process I think can be applied to every breed and most situations. I saw a wonderful Terv at a dog show and fell in love with the breed, based on the drive and temperament of this one dog. I started investigating the breed, and after I had decided I could in fact handle a pup and provide an adequate home for it, began investigating breeders by going to dog events, and chatting with people who had tervs I liked. I got the name of their dog's breeder and asked them for names of three other kennels and breeders who would do right by a newbie to the breed, and who were breeding dogs for the purpose I wanted (agility). By the time I talked to 20 people, a lot of the same names kept coming up, and I made a list of the top four/five and starting calling around, asking to meet with the breeders. The second breeder was the one where I ended up getting my puppy. I spent three hours there, chatting and meeting their dogs. They had bought back a dog they had heard was not in good circumstances; their puppies were raised in outdoor kennels with time in the house as well and they had a total of four bitches, including the one they were rehoming. I let them pick a puppy for me out of a litter that was born about 10 months later and she was a wonderful companion who I still miss to this day.

 

But good breeders or new breeders who have been active in your dog-related activity of choice for a while will be known and can be found. Then your only concern is to get your name on their list of desirable puppy homes. You have to trust your breeder ( and all of mine have either picked the puppy they wanted me to have or given me a limited choice from those they considered appropriate) and ensure they can trust you. I was a newbie and got a great dog -- but to the extent that I asked about things , I was also prepared to discuss my lifestyle and abilities. I 've bought other puppies since then, and have found ethical breeders who dealt fairly with me and who have given me wonderful and dearly-loved dogs. There are no guarantees in life, and perhaps I've just been lucky.

 

But ask around and also be prepared to answer questions.

[alligande]

Mum24dog lives in a very rural part of England and if she is dealing with the types of old fashioned farmers that I have come across on the other side of the country their dogs are not going to be very well socialized. Sure there are lots of social farmers... but traditional northern english hill farmers are not known for their modern ways!

 

My cousin who is not a farmer but lives on the moors in farm house never takes her GSDs of the property unless they are going to stay in kennels when they go away, my other cousin has dogs who are socialized to an amazing amount of diverse activity on his farm, but they too never leave the property.

 

The farmers she is talking about are very different to DeltaBluez and Lana.

[Mark Billadeau]

It's the same situation as I described above on my view of all dogs within a breed (worldwide) based upon the dogs I encountered regionally. The situation frequently comes up in our geographically diverse virtual community where a worldwide group is generalized by ones regional experiences.

 

I still wonder how much of the dog's temperament is truly associated with rearing as opposed to genetics; I generally lean more towards genetics.

 

 

[denice]

I agree there are good dogs in rescue and there are good dogs producing good pups by folks who breed. I have always had a 'stray dog' that has become part of the family. I think those dogs that have not had the best start in life are very aware when they find a good home with a great family or person. They seem to try that much harder.

Since I have been using working border collies I have gone to dogs that I know their background and pedigree. I am looking for specific things and that gives me the best chance finding it. I have a litter every few years when I have dogs that fit me and want pups from that cross. I look very hard at each dogs personality, ability, stucture... To have a good working dog you need dogs with all three. They have to stand up under work and those demands physically and mentally. Yes there are individual border collies out there that are wound rather tight, some sensative, some independant, some calm and confident. Those personality traits are passed to pups as surely as working ability. I am a big believer in finding a dog that suits you for whatever your situations and goals are for you and that dog. On the same line not every dog will enjoy or excell at what you want to do. I feel those dogs that do not suit you should be if possible kept or rehomed - whatever is best for the dog. I have raised border collies that simply did not suit me as far as working goes. I tried for years to work it out but always butted heads. I rehomed those dogs and they were far happier and worked well for their new handler. I have also taken in border collies over the years that did not suit their owner for different reasons. It 'did not enjoy trialing' or was 'busting through sheep' or 'didn't want to work'... I find in most of those situations the dogs turn around just fine and begin to work well given time and understanding and encouragement. It is the least I can do for them when I think of the dogs that have given so much to me. I just trialed a dog that 'wouldn't work sheep at 1.5 years old for her owner'. She is a more sensative dog but let me say she Wants to Work, her first trial and we came in 3rd. The dogs problem was she and the person didn't see things the same way. I find good working homes for these dogs where the people and dog are both very happy. The sad part is most of the original owners or trainer of these dogs really didn't give them a fair chance. THey wanted what they wanted and they wanted it now, not taking the individual dog and its personality and ability into account. So many times it isn't the dog that really has a problem it is us - the people. I think many dogs end up in rescue through no fault of their own.

As a breeder I do all I can to produce good solid working dogs with great personalities and temperments. They are raised on the farm, in the house, given tons of time and attention. Once they have all their vaccines they are taken out and about into the world, before that they get tons of exposure here at home. a farm or ranch is not necessarily a quiet resticted life. Breeding pups of sound mind and body with working ability is not an easy thing. Those of us who depend on these dogs every day take it seriously I assure you. As much as you are questioning breeders we question potential owners. I turn down about 4to 6 folks to every 1 I would sell a dog to. Raising these pups takes a ton of work, we want to give them the best shot at a great useful life.

Find a breeder who is pasionate about their dogs, does all the medical screening, goes the extra mile for their dogs and Odds are you will get a good one. Or spend time talking to rescue folks about dogs in their program, spend time with the dogs and follow your heart when you meet one that speaks to you.

 

Denice

[ChantalB]

I personally dont find over socialisation to everything gimicky at all when its done by the right person with the right situation. Always keeping it safe and positive, I'm well aware of the health risks of it, hense why I mentioned somewhere to keep it as safe as possible always minimizing risks. I'm also aware of the mental risks of not socializing. If i don't have someone I trust doing that stuff for the first 8 weeks (able to keep it mostly all positive and safe) than I'd rather the puppy not be overexposed as its not worth the health risks both mentally and physically. Thats why its its a journey finder a breeder, as trust is the biggest thing. Personally I dont just want the dog to be okay in new, scary situations but i want him to excel when there's a lot of stress, to use that energy into healthy work drive versus negative things. Also I do agility, I don't work sheep, I don't have the instinct on my side in the ring. Yes the work qualities are excellent for agility, but its not sheep out there its really weird obstacles on a tight weird course with a lot of crazy going to and from the ring. I view the herding atmosphere as a very mature one (Ive only been to a few) these something natural about it that feels very right. Agility atmosphere is frankly a little crazy at times, so I want to train for this from day one so in the ring we can focus on being 100%.

 

There are also a lot of ways to 'fake' socialise a dog. By having the same people dress up, by having the contacts of people with healthy dogs of different looks for a visit, by changing around the puppy room every couple days. You can do a lot within the confines of ones own home. My ideal breeder does this. Its high up there on my list.

 

I made a lot of mistakes with my current buy, and have been working ever since to overcome those early years. And with that researching where I went wrong and forming my own opinions as well. Along with a better plan for the next puppy. I know you can't control everything, but by controlling what I can I hope to get the best dog I can (which is great for the dog as well).

[Oko]

I guess I'm pretty relaxed for a pet/sports person about socialization. I figure since most of the important socialization period is up to me once I get the puppy, if I'm getting one at around 7-8-9 weeks old. It's nice if they happen to have cats (I have six) and invite some visitors over, especially kids, and play with the puppies on a regular basis. Raised indoors is a must for me, because I don't want complete culture shock. If it's a nicely bred puppy from good-tempered parents, I would hope it would take most things in stride anyway. Of the people I've contacted (working dog breeders), all do more than I would have expected in the socialization area.

 

I don't think all that exposure when a puppy is just a blob is really that helpful, and possibly risky health-wise. We have plenty of time to learn once puppy is home and part of socializing, to me, is having puppy learn how to adapt to new things for later that we 'missed/forgot', because there's always something.

 

I am excited this go-round to have a well bred puppy from a caring breeder. Having one rescue that came to us at 2 years originally from a BYB/Puppy Mill situation and completely untrained, and the other came from a BYB and had to leave his Mum too early/his Dad was an absolute spaz. Like in Marley & Me. :P/>/>

[juliepoudrier]

^^Exactly Oko. Realistically, a breeder might do a lot of socializing for about 3 weeks (and for me that would mean limited interaction with any other non-resident dogs just because of what I consider an excessive risk to the pup's health to do otherwise). Compared to the months/years a dog spends with its owner, and it seems to me that the bulk of any sort of socializing really falls to the owner.

 

Note that I am not advocating not socializing a pup, but I think extensive socialization is just not realistic, beyond what you can set up in the home and with your own dogs. I wouldn't even expose a young pup to friend's dogs who are vaccinated--I've seen enough parvo cases with really sad ends to not be too cautions when it comes to exposing pups to other dogs.

 

J.

[MrRipley]

The OP wants a dog primarily to do agility with. I said it early on in this thread, and I will repeat -- I firmly believe that a young rescue/rehomed dog is the BEST way to go if agility is the main activity and focus, and stockwork is not much of a consideration.

 

It's much, much easier to evaluate an adolescent/young adult dog's personality, drive, and structure than a baby.

 

I know many agility dogs where the pedigrees & health checks were all lovely, were raised with careful consideration, etc... yet they have temperament or physical problems that prevent them from excelling at the sport. I know many nice ones too, but I still think it's more of a crapshoot than when you are able to evaluate the actual dog before choosing it.

 

Ripley was found as a stray and brought to a nearby shelter. He was about a year old, underweight, and had a very thick sunbleached coat (it was winter). Let me tell you, he is a NICE dog. If whoever owned him wanted to find this dog, they would have. He was at the shelter for 10 days. So I doubt he had the most ideal upbringing. Yet he loves all people, kids, dogs, toys, and he excels at agility. Don't know if he ever lived in a house but he adjusted quickly. His build and structure is really nice -- he gets lots of compliments He also could be a decent sheepdog if I had the resources and time to put into developing his talents there.

 

I have no problem at all with breeders and people wanting puppies. Obviously I do favor rescues -- there are just so many nice border collies needing homes. And when agility is the main activity, I think the benefits of choosing a rescue dog outweigh the benefits of trying to choose a puppy.

[SS Cressa]

Maybe I should put on my flame retarded suit on.

 

But if i had to vote for one i would totally vote for powertripp. She is a very awesome breeder. Very helpful and nice. I haven't met any of her dogs I didn't like. She has produced some awesome agility dogs. Most of her dogs offsprings have wonderful temperments, great drive, and a wonderful work ethics. I have heard wonderful things about her boys. Where they are totally relax and calm at a flyball tournament right on ring side. They seem to pass that onto their pups.

 

They have an upcoming breeding that if I didn't just get a pup I would totally jump at a chance at that cross. I met the mom and loved herand her offspring. And the dad is Tripp.

 

Just that is an awesome kennel.

 

And I know some of her offspring can herd also hut generally the owner are more focus on agility to really pursue herding.

[Sue R]

And I know some of her offspring can herd also hut generally the owner are more focus on agility to really pursue herding.

Apparently, since this is her outlook - "In the modern world their purpose and 'jobs' have changed as the farming lifestyle is becoming something of the past." I guess those of us who depend on our dogs to help manage livestock are just living in the past. I just hope folks don't say that with their mouths full.

[Liz P]

Uh oh. What year is it? Maybe living on a farm near the Pioneer Valley has addled my brain.

[PSmitty]

Great post, Heather! Totally agree.

[Gloria Atwater]

Maybe I should put on my flame retarded suit on.

 

But if i had to vote for one i would totally vote for powertripp.

 

 

You do realize you are recommending an AKC breeder, right?

 

I think it's a very great pity to give anything to breeders who put absolutely no importance on preserving the border collie's innate ability to work livestock. I am in fact dismayed by a breeder who would baldly state:

 

In the modern world their purpose and "jobs" have changed as the farming lifestyle is becoming something of the past. Today the Border Collie is making itself known as a top competitor in multiple areas of performance sports.

 

In my view, that's simply an excuse to breed black-and-white dogs whose only connection to their working heritage is a steadily-thinning thread of distant ancestry.

 

And I know some of her offspring can herd also hut generally the owner are more focus on agility to really pursue herding.

 

And there you have it. "Some." What a pity that a breeder is producing border collie litters among whom only "some can herd."

 

Everyone's mileage may of course vary.

Respectfully submitted,

 

~ Gloria

[DeltaBluez Tess]

"And I know some of her offspring can herd also hut generally the owner are more focus on agility to really pursue herding. "

 

 

this is the road to ruin......you start to breed away from what the breed is all about.

 

 

want a top working dog, agility dog or flyball or frisbee dog.....get an original and not psuedo copy......if I want to drive a nice high end sport car in a race, I am not going to buy a Yugo.