Lets Talk About Breeders...please?

[Jexa]

Since you asked, I'll add my own experiences with rescue. I can't say enough good things about it.

 

We adopted Stormy, a BC/golden mix (we believed) when I was a kid. He was *my* dog, my heart dog, one of the sweetest, smartest, most eager to please, outgoing, independent, best dogs I've ever known. He was probably about a year and a half when we got him from the humane society, after a woman found him locked in a trailer with no food or water. He developed a severe case of kennel cough and darn near died in the weeks after we got him. He adored people but shied away when you raised your hands quickly and disliked loud angry voices. My mom still loves to tell the story of our third or fourth obedience class, when we were supposed to have them down/stay, then turn our backs and walk to the other side of the room. As I walked away, the lady next to me was talking in a loud, grating voice to her dog. So Stormy low crawled in a down position right behind me all the way to the other side of the room. When I turned around, there was Stormy laying at my feet, wagging his tail with a guilty expression on his face. All you needed to discipline him was to look at him with a disappointed look on your face- he would never again do whatever he'd done wrong. Though we know he was severely neglected and likely beaten, he never really had any baggage. He stopped shying at raised hands and was always friendly and relaxed.

 

After college and a wedding, my husband and I adopted Rudder at about 9 weeks old. We originally thought there might be some lab lurking in that blocky head of his, but have since decided he's 100% BC. He was dumped with his litter, all of whom apparently were in various stages of having their tails cut off (not docked by a vet, whacked off). Rudder had a healed nub and supposedly was the sole survivor. He was wormy and underweight and TERRIFIED. At the shelter all the other dogs and puppies barked and jumped and begged for attention. Rudder was huddled in the corner of the doghouse, shaking. I sat on the floor with him trembling in my lap, head down, nub tucked, wondering if I should take a chance on this shivering ball of black and white fluff. What if he was too damaged? Never came out of his shell? I couldn't handle a dog that had so much baggage! Then, after about 10 minutes with him in my lap, wondering if it was worth the gamble, I felt a tiny wet nose touch my thumb, and then a little pink tongue very cautiously lick my hand, just once. That did it. I was done. The quivering mass of fur was coming home with me. I won't lie, he still has some significant fear issues, particularly with strange people, and may never be super outgoing, but I feel that is much more due to his personality than his experience as a baby. He continues to make huge improvements (hes just over a year old). He is a fantastic dog, sweet and goofy and playful and mischievous, and I can't imagine my life without him. He is DH's heart dog, btw, and DH is the only man he loves or is even comfortable around. He's still a giant mama's boy, though

 

Almost a year later, we got Max. We had no intention of getting another dog at that time, but I saw Max and just couldn't get him out of my head. He is also probably 100% BC, and was about 5 months old when we got him. We don't know his history, but he goes BONKERS when he gets to meet new people and tries his level best to lick them to death. He is the biggest snuggle bug when you can get him to sit still for a few minutes. He is the most fearless, confident, athletic, outgoing, intense, eager to learn, intelligent, happiest dog I have ever met. Zero baggage. I can't tell you how much I love this dog, or how much incredible potential he has to succeed at anything you ask of him.

 

My brother's dog lived on the streets for many years and developed the odd quirk of stealing and hiding food when she can, but is friendly and happy and has no baggage, just quirks

 

If I ever seriously got involved in dog competitions or wanted a dog for a very specific reason (aka DH wants a duck dog), I might look at some breeders, but as far as pets/running buddies/companions go, I will continue to adopt. Any minor 'issues' they've had have been FAR outweighed by the wonderful experiences and lessons they've taught me. Many breed rescues not only work to match your dog, but encourage trial periods and urge you to return the dog keep looking if the fit isn't right. My advice as you look for your dog is to be patient and keep your mind open- when the right one comes along, you'll know it, be it through a breeder or a rescue. Do your research and make an informed decision, but don't stress about trying to make the "perfect" decision. It doesn't exist. And, of course, pictures are required when you do find him or her!

[Maralynn]

All 3 of my dogs came to me second hand.

 

My first was my heart dog. I had her 9 years and lost her a year and a half ago due to cancer and I still miss her every day. She had some baggage, but honestly it never mattered. She was 110% devoted to me and the smartest dog I've ever met. Her drive and heart were amazing and she'd try whatever I'd ask of her.

 

Dog #2, Kipp, was a breeder rehome I got him at not quite 2 y/o and his biggest issue was his cat obsession. Other than that he has lots of heart and try. He is a farm chore dog and also a wilderness search and rescue dog.

 

Dog #3, Kenzi, came to me via Border Collie rescue. I knew exactly what I wanted and that's what I got. A young, drivey blank slate go anywhere do anything dog. Her background? she was abandoned as a 4 m/o pup, found, vetted, placed in a home where after a month she ended up tied outside much of the time. She went into rescue at 7 m/o when that home offered her on Craigslist. Not an ideal upbringing by any stretch of the imagination, but she is a happy, resilient dog that loves everyone, can go just about anywhere, has lots of drive and loves to train.

[MrSnappy]

I worry and try to plan for every possability so when a problems arises i do not have to dwell on what i did wrong, i can just accept that problems will happen and work through it.

 

That kind of just sums up being a dog owner, doesn't it? No matter where your dog comes from, it's an organic "living document" and as such you, the owner, has to work through whatever crops up. You aren't going to get a *perfect* dog no matter where you obtain it, but you could get the perfect dog for you from just about anywhere.

 

I have 6 dogs and they are ALL rescues. My oldest is nearly 13 and I adopted him from a rescue when he was 6 weeks old (too young - yes. Regional AAC Champion and all around bestest dog EVER - yes). He's a pretty well adjusted dog, despite being obtained too young, being left all day whilst I was at work and being raised with the biggest dink of an adult border collie you ever met (forgive me, Red Dog, but you were kind of a putz). My oldest female is 10, and I got her from the local shelter when she was 4 months old. Not a great sheepdog, not an awesome agility dog, lousy flyball dog ... but super important member of my household and family and keeps all my other dogs in line. I owe her a debt of gratitude. She is extremely well adjusted. I have two biological brothers, one adopted from a shelter at 7 months and one adopted from the same shelter when he was 4 years old. The former is a comedian, the latter is a jerk, but I knew what I was getting when I got him. My youngest border collie is 3 years old and was born in rescue, so I've known him since he was a day old. He was raised carefully and is a giant (literally) weirdo, despite having all advantages available and his parents being well bred dogs (yes, I have his pedigree). He fears children, makes Mad Teeth at sheep, is a nightmare on the agility course and tries my patience a hundred times a day. My youngest dog is a 2 year old terrier mix who came from a shelter sight unseen with so much baggage we had to pay for overages on her flight down ;-) It took a few months and a little elbow grease but in the end she is pitch perfect, and possibly my favourite dog.

 

My point being - dogs are who they are. Some of the most rock solid dogs I have ever met have come out of rescue or shelters and some of the weirdest/awfulest have come straight from renowned breeders. And conversely, you can switch their origins around and the same statement would be true. If you work with a good rescue, that KNOWS their dogs and can give you an accurate picture of the animal you are getting, you're off to an excellent start. The biggest factor in a dog's success is YOU. How you deal with what you've got and how flexible you are willing to be around the themness of them will what determines how wonderful your dog is.

 

RDM

[Jumpin Boots]

It is my feeling that there is a better chance at predicting whether you are going to find a good agility partner in a slightly more mature pup/young adult dog then a puppy (be it from a breeder or rescue).

 

Both of my agility dogs have come from shelters at about 10 months of age. When we adopted Boots I knew nothing about agility, he seemed like he would be a good hiking partner. Boots did come with some baggage, honestly, he was an awful dog for the first few months. We would go on long walks, where he wouldn’t potty, and then as soon as we got back inside, he would give me his border collie glare and pee right in front of me. But after several months of strict routine he became the best dog and at 10.5 years is happily competing in agility still and has been an awesome team member. I am happy I didn’t send him back to the shelter, although it crossed my mind several times, and I wouldn’t have blamed anyone for doing that. Boots is my protector, friend and partner; he is one of those rescue dogs that seems like he knows he was saved, I like to think he was just testing me in those first few months to see if I was going to be as commited to him as he would become to me.

 

When we rescued Renoir in 2007, I knew what I wanted in my next agility dog. I was looking in rescues with foster care, since I have fostered I know how much info good fosters can share and I wanted to take advantage of that. However, when I met him at the local shelter I knew he was going home with us. Plus, with him being 10 months of age, I was able to see what his play drive was like, his interest in learning, his attention to me and I introduced him to a few new things and was able to see how he handled new/different things. After about 2 minutes I knew he was going to be a good agility partner, I just didn’t know how good, and he’s turned out great!

 

The other advantage I think that agility people have in adopting slightly more mature pups is that you can have a better idea of what their body type/size is going to be like. If I had been looking for an agility dog in Boots I may have passed him by; as he probably has some lab mixed in and is pretty heavy in his front end, luckily for both of us this has never been an issue and he has been injury free.

 

Have you looked at pnwbcrescue.org at all? It is a source for border collie rescues covering WA, BC, OR, and ID. I have never adopted a dog from one of these groups, but have looked at a few, they just weren’t the right fit. I do however know several people who have adopted from them and all the dogs I know have been very nice. One even came to the adopter at 14 months of age sending to tunnels, having basic jump work, and pretty advanced obedience skills. There are litters of pups sometimes and they get a lot of nice young dogs.

 

Our newest addition, Timber, is a planned puppy (searched out puppy) from working dogs; at 6 1/2 months old he is a lot of fun and trouble. I don't know if he will ever be an agility dog, I don't care either; I do know however he will be a sheepdog; which is what I wanted, at 8.5 weeks old when he came one it was evident that he was going to fill the paws he was brought home for. I am tired of chasing our sheep in the mud and having to load them into a trailer to move them a couple hundred feet. I know some people say that border collies don't have to be on sheep or stock, that they don't know they are missing anything. And I would agree to that with both Boots and Renoir, even though Renoir can help a little bit with the sheep, I call it obedience herding, he could careless. But after having Timber for the past few months and introducing him to sheep last week, I do feel like it would be a real injustice to a dog like him to have purchased him for sport or companion and never let him do what his has been so carefully constructed to do. And hopefully someday Timber and I will be playing 'Mozart' as we move our flock of sheep from one pasture to the next.

 

Best of luck and welcome to the wonderful world of Border Collies!

[D'Elle]

Although I cannot improve on what everyone else has said, I do want to toss in my vote for seriously exploring the Rescue option. Since you are willing to go 'most anywhere to get the right dog, you will have no trouble finding a good one in rescue. Rescues regularly have puppies, and in fact if you are looking for an agility dog, getting a 6 month to year old puppy may be your very best option, because by then the rescue will know a bit more about the dog than you can know about a baby. I have a female 10 or 11 month old foster pup right now who I think would be terrific in agility. There are lots of them out there. Many rescue dogs come into rescue with issues that are worked out in the foster home before they ever get adopted - that is what we do when we foster dogs. My foster pup came to me with many issues, and is now a happy and easy to live with high energy pup. And I am no great trainer....she just needed some direction.

 

Please don't think all rescue dogs, especially the young ones, have issues. It's just not true. You may very well find it easier (and less expensive) to adopt from a rescue than buy a puppy.

Best of luck to you and thanks for being so conscientious.

.......and welcome to the BC Boards.

D'Elle

[alligande]

I will also add my 2 cents about rescue dogs, all 3 of my border collies have been rescues. #1 we got as an adult and did no sports with but he was my husbands best friend for 10 years and we could not have asked for a better companion, he had no baggage at all. #2 we got at 3.5 from his first family, he is a weird and strange little dog but not from any part of his upbringing it is just who he is, and we are convinced if we had got him as a puppy he would still be a strange little dog lots of fun to hang with though. #3 I got at 4 months, he was a backyard farm dog who spent 2 months with a nice family, then to me. Other than the fact he is huge I could not have found a better dog, he is everything I wanted in an agility partner, running companion and best buddy. I have also had a couple of foster dogs who would have made great agility partners.

 

But I do understand wanting a puppy, I think my next dog will come from a breeder as a puppy because I want to experience and raise my own little puppy.

[ChantalB]

I'm with you on the "hard to find a puppy" boat. I'd like a pup in the next year to 3, but I'm so picking with what I want in a breeder on the agility side. Im big into the early developpement stages and to not have control over those first 8 weeks, yikes! My dream breeder would socialise the crap out of the puppies, with suitable other dogs of course, dogs of different shapes, sizes and looks, hard with Health and immunization but they would try. Also I want my pup to meet a ton of new people, different shapes, sizes and looks (think hats, snowsuits, umbrellas, etc), good people who understand dogs. There's that level of trust needed to make sure they don't negatively socialise the little ones too, bad experiences suck to overcome.

 

Aside from socialising i want someone who exposes my future pup to different sights, sounds and surfaces. Has them safely going over mini agility courses (anyone see that video of the golden breeder using a noise make to get the puppies following her over a tiny tiny agility courses), jumping in a pool of plastic bottles making noises. Country dogs get a trip to the city, or the breeder finds a way to mimic that atmosphere. City dogs get a trip to explore open fields and forests, I want them out in nature right away, aware of the distractions that exist in life. I want cats in the equation too. Walk them on pavement, snow, ice, hardwood, tiled, floors, etc.

 

I can find a lot of what I'm looking for above in a sports breeder. This stuff is very important to me, I believe in the finite window of getting the pups personality molded, and that first few months I believe really is a canvas to the future dog you will be working with. Yes, you can train and overcome things, but why not start with the best possible start to not gave to focus your energy on "fixing"?

 

And then there's the border collie specific sidethe MOST important side of breeding to me. I fell in love with the border collie because they have a brain. They have the ability to think for themselves, to problem solve, and it comes quite naturally to a well bred dog. I love the atheticism, determination heart and stamina of the breed. I love the partnership, a dog that wanst to work for you, not one that you are fighting with. 2ell I love everything that makes a BC truly a BC and after a lot of research before my first border collie I found out that those traits come only from working lines. And the only way to preserve that is to breed for herding. The BCs true purpose and development. And to get good working lines you only breed proven parents. Don't dilute with dogs that arent proven.

 

And then there's the health and respectable stuff. All the tests, good conformation on the parents (I'm not talking show conformation, but is their basic body structure going to help them excel or will it impede my puppies performance). A dog built right can perform right and has more possibility of not hurting themselves. Temperament on the parents I like, personally I like brave dogs that bond to a person for life. Dogs who are pretty bold with a little crazy side, I love chanelling that type of drive and heart. If the bitch or sire are nasty I'm not going anywhere near the puppy. Too much attitude is not a good thing. The breeder needs recommendations, a good track record and a willingness to open up about what they are all about and their goals. No shady business.

 

Last but not least, the breeder has to truly love their dogs, willing to take any puppy back for life. They dont overbreed. Feeding raw would be a plus. All pups should come microchipped... and there's probably more

 

These are just my beliefs and dillemas I go through on my weekly breeder hunt. I need a crossover best of both worlds breeder, and that's hard to find. I want a lot. And I probably wont find everything in my future breeder but i know what I want and im patient so i hope to find someone eventually who I'm confident in the care of my future puppy. Someone who fits some of my wants and needs. Its a long journey to find this person!

 

Realistically, I'm asking for a lot. I know that, but by being true to myself and recognizing what I want it better creates the picture to find that comprimise.

[Patrisha]

This. Exactly. I thought I typed this in my sleep because these are all of my thoughts and feelings on a puppy. It is nice hearing someone is as crazy about it as I am. Chantel, if you ever find a breeder you like please let me know!! I am looking for the same!

 

I'm with you on the "hard to find a puppy" boat. I'd like a pup in the next year to 3, but I'm so picking with what I want in a breeder on the agility side. Im big into the early developpement stages and to not have control over those first 8 weeks, yikes! My dream breeder would socialise the crap out of the puppies, with suitable other dogs of course, dogs of different shapes, sizes and looks, hard with Health and immunization but they would try. Also I want my pup to meet a ton of new people, different shapes, sizes and looks (think hats, snowsuits, umbrellas, etc), good people who understand dogs. There's that level of trust needed to make sure they don't negatively socialise the little ones too, bad experiences suck to overcome.

 

Aside from socialising i want someone who exposes my future pup to different sights, sounds and surfaces. Has them safely going over mini agility courses (anyone see that video of the golden breeder using a noise make to get the puppies following her over a tiny tiny agility courses), jumping in a pool of plastic bottles making noises. Country dogs get a trip to the city, or the breeder finds a way to mimic that atmosphere. City dogs get a trip to explore open fields and forests, I want them out in nature right away, aware of the distractions that exist in life. I want cats in the equation too. Walk them on pavement, snow, ice, hardwood, tiled, floors, etc.

 

I can find a lot of what I'm looking for above in a sports breeder. This stuff is very important to me, I believe in the finite window of getting the pups personality molded, and that first few months I believe really is a canvas to the future dog you will be working with. Yes, you can train and overcome things, but why not start with the best possible start to not gave to focus your energy on "fixing"?

 

And then there's the border collie specific sidethe MOST important side of breeding to me. I fell in love with the border collie because they have a brain. They have the ability to think for themselves, to problem solve, and it comes quite naturally to a well bred dog. I love the atheticism, determination heart and stamina of the breed. I love the partnership, a dog that wanst to work for you, not one that you are fighting with. 2ell I love everything that makes a BC truly a BC and after a lot of research before my first border collie I found out that those traits come only from working lines. And the only way to preserve that is to breed for herding. The BCs true purpose and development. And to get good working lines you only breed proven parents. Don't dilute with dogs that arent proven.

 

And then there's the health and respectable stuff. All the tests, good conformation on the parents (I'm not talking show conformation, but is their basic body structure going to help them excel or will it impede my puppies performance). A dog built right can perform right and has more possibility of not hurting themselves. Temperament on the parents I like, personally I like brave dogs that bond to a person for life. Dogs who are pretty bold with a little crazy side, I love chanelling that type of drive and heart. If the bitch or sire are nasty I'm not going anywhere near the puppy. Too much attitude is not a good thing. The breeder needs recommendations, a good track record and a willingness to open up about what they are all about and their goals. No shady business.

 

Last but not least, the breeder has to truly love their dogs, willing to take any puppy back for life. They dont overbreed. Feeding raw would be a plus. All pups should come microchipped... and there's probably more :P/>

 

These are just my beliefs and dillemas I go through on my weekly breeder hunt. I need a crossover best of both worlds breeder, and that's hard to find. I want a lot. And I probably wont find everything in my future breeder but i know what I want and im patient so i hope to find someone eventually who I'm confident in the care of my future puppy. Someone who fits some of my wants and needs. Its a long journey to find this person!

 

Realistically, I'm asking for a lot. I know that, but by being true to myself and recognizing what I want it better creates the picture to find that comprimise.

[Patrisha]

Thank you everyone else for the replies. Hearing your great stories, I have opened myself up more to rescues. Hearing of so many sensitive dogs like the border collie go through recuse and come out as great dogs has really encouraged me. I met met many wonderful dogs in rescue but they have been of hardier breeds and the only border collies that came through the humane society i worked at were products of their upbringing and NOT for the better. I have looked arond at border collie rescues and see many dogs that would probably be good for me. I will continue the search for a breeder as well and we will see what falls into my lap. I dont think i will close the door on either until the pooch is on my couch!

 

Thanks again!!!

-Patrisha

[Eileen Stein]

It's as interesting to see how people are shaped by their environments as it is to speculate on how dogs are shaped by their environments.

[Root Beer]

Hearing of so many sensitive dogs like the border collie go through recuse and come out as great dogs has really encouraged me.

 

I have one of those, as well.

 

After two experiences with Border Collies who have temperament based challenges (one from a breeder and one from rescue), I had made up my mind that my next canine performance partner would be from a breeder and I was going to focus first and foremost on temperament in choosing that puppy.

 

Then a foster landed here and I couldn't let her go. She had been a stray and was of unknown origin. She was about as shut down as any dog I've ever met - was skittish of all people. Her first training session consisted of me handing her a treat and her taking it and running out of the room! She was our fifth dog at that time and I knew that by adopting her, I was giving up, at least for quite a good long while, the opportunity to seek a puppy of excellent temperament.

 

I was surprised to discover that I had found everything I have ever wanted and more in the most unlikely dog I could imagine. It turned out, she does have the dream temperament I was looking for! She had some major fears, but she is incredibly resilient and she transformed from completely untrained shut down dog into my dream performance partner.

 

I'm not saying you should go find a dog in rescue who has major issues to work through. Turns out, I enjoy that challenge, especially when the dog has the temperament to actually overcome them. What I am saying is that there are fantastic performance potentials in rescue.

 

I've met quite a few dogs through the volunteer work that I do with a Border Collie rescue, that I would have adopted as performance dogs in a heartbeat (had the time been right).

 

It surprised me to find what I was looking for in this particular dog. The bottom line is that she was the right dog who came along at the right time.

[Liz P]

It's as interesting to see how people are shaped by their environments as it is to speculate on how dogs are shaped by their environments.

 

My sister and I are both adopted. We were raised in the same house, and yet we very much take after our biological parents. I think genes have much more influence on behavior than some will admit. That said, I do think you can tip the balance with regards to some traits with the right or wrong upbringing.

[Maralynn]

From my observations, a genetically sound dog is highly resilient. You really have to try to mess them up and even then you may not be successful. Solid dogs are resilient and adaptable.

 

For a while I though my first dog had some genetic fear issues, but after a while I came to the conclusion that it was her upbringing more that who she was. Because she went from a dog that was terrified to come out of her crate to a dog that could pass as normal to most people. She traveled along on several trips with me, did a bit of therapy dog work, a farm chore dog, and learned crazy fast. It wasn't because I was a great trainer, but because she had the drive to WANT to do something and the desire to please. And slowly but surely as she relearned that she'd be okay, she WAS okay.

 

Looking back I think that if I'd have been a better trainer then/had access to good trainers, she could have been very successful as a sport dog or would have made a nice beginners trial dog.

 

Kipp wasn't a house dog until he was two y/o. He went from scared of slippery floors to fine with them in about 2 weeks. He had never ridden in the car either and got car sick the first few trips. But he soon got over that and now LOVES going for rides.

 

Kenzi had zero stability in her early months and who knows how she was treated, but she's always up to trying something new/going somewhere new. I don't even have to think about it with her - I can just take it for granted that she'll be ready to try something new.

 

I'm about 75% sure that I'll get a well bred pup next time around. It will be interesting to see what kind of a difference I see in raising a dog from a pup vs. getting an older dog. Personally I suspect there will be some, but much of it will have to do more with the dynamics of starting with an untrained pup vs. an untrained teenage or adult dog rather than any sort of "baggage" the dog may be with them.

[mum24dog]

I think puppies are overrated - blink and they're gone, leaving you faced with an adolescent dog that looks almost like an adult and may have ditched the early promise of biddability,if only temporarily.

 

Occasionally I think it might be nice to start younger than I normally do but realistically I see so many young dogs that I could take straight home in flash if we had room that I know I couldn't turn one away if circumstances were right.

 

I'll admit that I don't really get why some people, despite having had great success with rescue dogs, then decide to buy next time. I do understand why some people having decided on a pup might prefer to buy from a breeder rather than take a chance on a rescue pup. Pups can change so much and what looks like a BC at 8 weeks might end up as something very different in a short time, such as the rescue "collie" pup of a friend that turned into a lurcher. It depends how flexible the adopter is and how prepared to take what comes - the lurcher is much loved and is turning out to be a brilliant agility dog.

 

I can't help thinking of all the people I know who have got pups, done everything "right", and still not ended up with the super dog they hoped, and those who have taken pot luck and got the perfect dog for them. I prefer not to plan in too much detail and just work with whatever hand I am dealt.

 

Just to be clear - I'm talking from the perspective of someone who would hope to do sports with a dog, not work it.

 

From the agility pov, I just have to look at the dogs in our not very big club. There are 7 grades in the UK, 7 being the top (then Champ after that). In the Large category we currently have 6 Grade 6 and 1 Grade 7 dogs. 1 Grade 6 is a working bred Welsh Sheepdog, 1 Grade 6 a sport/conformation bred BC (both bought as pups), and the rest are rescue BCs adopted between the ages of 5 and 12 months.

The sport/confirmation dog's breeding was subject to a barrage of health tyests but it hasn't made him any more or less healthy than the others (save 1 from top trialling lines that suffers from vasovagal syncope that doesn't impinge on his performance.) No debilitating HD, OCD, epilepsy, TNS, PRA, CEA...

Those figures are good enough for me.

[diane allen]

Yet another rescue/breed story.

#1 was a rescue/rehome (owner died) at age 3.5 yr. Fun, but little training for anything. Started agility around age 4; won two NADAC Championships at age 10 and 11, lots of other amazing successes. Had major internal organ surgery at age 14, lived quite well to over age 16. Turned out she did have an ABCA registration, but surely no ENS or the like. Other than sound sensitivity (many BCs do), she was about as perfect a dog as I could have ever dreamed of.

 

#2 was a purchased, sport-bred puppy. I loved the first two months with him! (and still do, of course!) We did all the "get out and about" stuff - elevators, construction sites, etc. etc. He too is well balanced, not fearful of anything, having fun and doing well in agility.

 

#3 is a recently-rescued, 4 mo old pup. Mom is definitely BC, dad may or may not have been. She and mom and siblings came into rescue; she got adopted near 8 weeks, then returned to the rescue; I got her at about 4+ months. Now almost six months, she has adjusted quite well to everything she's been exposed to! Sweet, biddable, fun, and cute of course. We have great plans for agility as well.

 

Bottom line: Yes, some rescue dogs have baggage, some of which you may never be able to overcome. But many many many rescues have young pups, to mold in your own particular fashion. There are older dogs too that can be wonderful, as my #1 was.

 

Rescues rock!!

 

diane

[Lana]

I'm with you on the "hard to find a puppy" boat. I'd like a pup in the next year to 3, but I'm so picking with what I want in a breeder on the agility side. Im big into the early developpement stages and to not have control over those first 8 weeks, yikes! My dream breeder would socialise the crap out of the puppies, with suitable other dogs of course, dogs of different shapes, sizes and looks, hard with Health and immunization but they would try. Also I want my pup to meet a ton of new people, different shapes, sizes and looks (think hats, snowsuits, umbrellas, etc), good people who understand dogs. There's that level of trust needed to make sure they don't negatively socialise the little ones too, bad experiences suck to overcome.

 

Aside from socialising i want someone who exposes my future pup to different sights, sounds and surfaces. Has them safely going over mini agility courses (anyone see that video of the golden breeder using a noise make to get the puppies following her over a tiny tiny agility courses), jumping in a pool of plastic bottles making noises. Country dogs get a trip to the city, or the breeder finds a way to mimic that atmosphere. City dogs get a trip to explore open fields and forests, I want them out in nature right away, aware of the distractions that exist in life. I want cats in the equation too. Walk them on pavement, snow, ice, hardwood, tiled, floors, etc.

 

I can find a lot of what I'm looking for above in a sports breeder. This stuff is very important to me, I believe in the finite window of getting the pups personality molded, and that first few months I believe really is a canvas to the future dog you will be working with. Yes, you can train and overcome things, but why not start with the best possible start to not gave to focus your energy on "fixing"?

 

And then there's the border collie specific sidethe MOST important side of breeding to me. I fell in love with the border collie because they have a brain. They have the ability to think for themselves, to problem solve, and it comes quite naturally to a well bred dog. I love the atheticism, determination heart and stamina of the breed. I love the partnership, a dog that wanst to work for you, not one that you are fighting with. 2ell I love everything that makes a BC truly a BC and after a lot of research before my first border collie I found out that those traits come only from working lines. And the only way to preserve that is to breed for herding. The BCs true purpose and development. And to get good working lines you only breed proven parents. Don't dilute with dogs that arent proven.

 

And then there's the health and respectable stuff. All the tests, good conformation on the parents (I'm not talking show conformation, but is their basic body structure going to help them excel or will it impede my puppies performance). A dog built right can perform right and has more possibility of not hurting themselves. Temperament on the parents I like, personally I like brave dogs that bond to a person for life. Dogs who are pretty bold with a little crazy side, I love chanelling that type of drive and heart. If the bitch or sire are nasty I'm not going anywhere near the puppy. Too much attitude is not a good thing. The breeder needs recommendations, a good track record and a willingness to open up about what they are all about and their goals. No shady business.

 

Last but not least, the breeder has to truly love their dogs, willing to take any puppy back for life. They dont overbreed. Feeding raw would be a plus. All pups should come microchipped... and there's probably more :P/>

 

These are just my beliefs and dillemas I go through on my weekly breeder hunt. I need a crossover best of both worlds breeder, and that's hard to find. I want a lot. And I probably wont find everything in my future breeder but i know what I want and im patient so i hope to find someone eventually who I'm confident in the care of my future puppy. Someone who fits some of my wants and needs. Its a long journey to find this person!

 

Realistically, I'm asking for a lot. I know that, but by being true to myself and recognizing what I want it better creates the picture to find that comprimise.

 

 

wow. Here i am just hoping this up coming litter is full of good, useful stockdogs.

Next time i hear that working breeders wont sell to new people etc, i shall refer them here.

[Lana]

It's as interesting to see how people are shaped by their environments as it is to speculate on how dogs are shaped by their environments.

 

Most excellent quote, thank you Eileen.

[Maralynn]

 

I'll admit that I don't really get why some people, despite having had great success with rescue dogs, then decide to buy next time.

 

For my it's because I'd like the puppy experience at least once but I also want some specifics in the adult dog (good genetics for work ethic, drive, temperament). So my personal choices for acquiring a dog are a young adult already showing what I want (rescue/rehome which I've done 3 times now) or a pup from a good working breeder when I want to go the puppy route (which I really really want to do one of these years!!).

[gcv-border]

Since you (the OP) say that you are mainly interested in a dog for agility and skijoring, I am glad you are now more open to the idea of a rescue dog -----

 

The Best Q is a Res Q!

 

Jovi

[Mark Billadeau]

I'm with you on the "hard to find a puppy" boat. I'd like a pup in the next year to 3, but I'm so picking with what I want in a breeder on the agility side. Im big into the early developpement stages and to not have control over those first 8 weeks, yikes! My dream breeder would socialise the crap out of the puppies, with suitable other dogs of course, dogs of different shapes, sizes and looks, hard with Health and immunization but they would try. Also I want my pup to meet a ton of new people, different shapes, sizes and looks (think hats, snowsuits, umbrellas, etc), good people who understand dogs. There's that level of trust needed to make sure they don't negatively socialise the little ones too, bad experiences suck to overcome.

Is a <8 week old puppy's immune system really ready to handle the extensive exposure to the big wide world (multiple dogs, multiple places where there have been many other dogs, multiple people who have been exposed to many dogs, etc) that your ideal breeder would provide to your future pup?

 

Read up on passive immunity.

[juliepoudrier]

Thank you for that observation Mark.

 

J.

[Alchemist]

Thanks to both Lana and to Mark Billadeau for weighing in on this discussion. For those of you who don't know, Lana and Mark are two of the sorts of people who breed Border collies for ALL the right reasons.

 

I have to say - even if I were looking for a puppy with the intention of doing agility or obedience with it (which I'm not; I'm a not-quite-novice trialer hoping to advance to that level this year, so my next dog will be acquired with working ability and likely working style as primary considerations) - I'd take a pup from one of Lana or Mark's occasional litters in a heartbeat. And I'd walk, not run, from any sports breeder. The socializing ChantalB describes strikes me as excessive, "gimmicky". A definite turnoff.

 

ETA: "run, not walk", not "walk, not run"

[Lana]

Thank you Alchemist for the kind words.

 

We breed our first litter 2.5 years ago, and Mint is breed now with the second litter. I feel i should say we have no pups for sale, least people think i am looking for buyers. Tacky.

 

We only breed when we want a pup( we will keep at least 2) and we are breeding dogs that we hope will suit our needs on the ranch. I love to trial and of course I want dogs suited for that as well. As a mediocre handler i think i will have to settle for dogs that do well on very tough sheep, where the dog has to handle most of the job, and maybe no so well on other sheep.

 

This being our second litter i know we have a lot to learn. I am always on the look out for old time doggers to hash with about dogs and sheep. Nothing better.

 

I admit i would not sell to a sport/pet only home, but my friends do and i am fine with that. I do not agree with breeding for anything but working ability. I am not interested in breeding dogs for the masses. I wont ever breed enough dogs to make a big difference in the breed. I am just to soft on where my pups go to produce very many of them, and i suspect my pups wont appeal to the the majority anyway. I do want them tested in ranch and trial homes so i can gauge what i am breeding, and that is also my reason for keeping at least 2.

 

As to selling to a beginer, i am not against that( we all started there for God sake) if they are already working with a good trainer and have paid some dues on the way to handling a dog. Motivated and passionate beginers( ranch and trial) are wonderful and necessary to the breed. How cool it must be to breed a dog that a beginer takes and does well with. Very satisfying i bet.

 

I also steer these people to dog lines i know are easy to start and easy to handle. Most people want that. I usually know of a good litter i can tell people about when i get a call/email. I would much rather sell started dogs than pups to ranchers or trialers. I know what the dog is and feel i can find the best fit for dog and person that way.

 

I also talk up rescue whenever i can,so many nice dogs need a home.

 

 

I do know that most people i know are VERY happy that our pups are inside and handled by children. I get that and find it resonable. I am really not up on the all the "needs of puppy buyers" it seems to have worked ok with the first litter to just have the kids love on them.....a lot.

 

[mum24dog]

The socializing ChantalB describes strikes me as excessive, "gimmicky". A definite turnoff.

 

I agree. It sounds like box ticking with little regard for the ability of the pup to cope with being flooded with so many new and potentially scary experiences.

 

Sensible socialisation to fit a pup for the life it will lead is good but that doesn't necessarily mean that "socialising the crap" out of a pup is better.

 

Instead of a list of specifics that a pup must encounter IMO the aim should be to foster an ability to cope with new experiences whether it has met them before or not. There's no need to go to intensive extremes.

 

The last few pups at our agility club have been socialised initially by being brought to training before their full course of jabs and passed around to be fussed over by those watching. Lots of peculiar noises going on. When they have had their first jab they have been put down after class to play and socialise with a variety of selected dogs. They are taken lots of places by car, especially to shows where they will meet strange people (very strange some of them and big and small), dogs, traffic, trade stands, PA systems, crowds, and also have to learn to adapt to other places than home. Apart than taking them to the vet and into town that just about covers all the bases.

 

We have a KC rule that no dog under 4 months can be taken to a show but it is widely ignored because we all know the value of early socialisation.

 

But what people don't tend to do is overthink and overformalise the process.

[Sue R]

Thank you Alchemist for the kind words.

 

We breed our first litter 2.5 years ago, and Mint is breed now with the second litter. I feel i should say we have no pups for sale, least people think i am looking for buyers. Tacky.

 

We only breed when we want a pup( we will keep at least 2) and we are breeding dogs that we hope will suit our needs on the ranch. I love to trial and of course I want dogs suited for that as well. As a mediocre handler i think i will have to settle for dogs that do well on very tough sheep, where the dog has to handle most of the job, and maybe no so well on other sheep.

 

This being our second litter i know we have a lot to learn. I am always on the look out for old time doggers to hash with about dogs and sheep. Nothing better.

 

I admit i would not sell to a sport/pet only home, but my friends do and i am fine with that. I do not agree with breeding for anything but working ability. I am not interested in breeding dogs for the masses. I wont ever breed enough dogs to make a big difference in the breed. I am just to soft on where my pups go to produce very many of them, and i suspect my pups wont appeal to the the majority anyway. I do want them tested in ranch and trial homes so i can gauge what i am breeding, and that is also my reason for keeping at least 2.

 

As to selling to a beginer, i am not against that( we all started there for God sake) if they are already working with a good trainer and have paid some dues on the way to handling a dog. Motivated and passionate beginers( ranch and trial) are wonderful and necessary to the breed. How cool it must be to breed a dog that a beginer takes and does well with. Very satisfying i bet.

 

I also steer these people to dog lines i know are easy to start and easy to handle. Most people want that. I usually know of a good litter i can tell people about when i get a call/email. I would much rather sell started dogs than pups to ranchers or trialers. I know what the dog is and feel i can find the best fit for dog and person that way.

 

I also talk up rescue whenever i can,so many nice dogs need a home.

 

 

I do know that most people i know are VERY happy that our pups are inside and handled by children. I get that and find it resonable. I am really not up on the all the "needs of puppy buyers" it seems to have worked ok with the first litter to just have the kids love on them.....a lot.

 

And if this kind of breeder was willing to sell me a pup or started dog, I'd be very proud. And I'd give it the best working home I could. Living in the house, the best training I could give it, not a lot of work but real work, and a good, honest life as a working dog.

 

I, too, am not interested in "ticking off" a series of nitpicking "guidelines" but just getting a well-bred pup from well-proven parents and a responsible, breeds-for-work-only breeder.