Jump to content
BC Boards

Broad Jump vs. Running Contact


Recommended Posts

I would love to get some feedback from y'all regarding if my logic regarding a training issue seems to be on the right track and any suggestions to solve it.

 

Here goes: While reading the topic regarding USDAA trial and NADAC rule changes, some of the beginning posts mentioned problems that different dogs have with the broad jump. I don't know why, but I suddenly realized that although my dog has no problem with the broad jump (the few times he sees it), he may be confusing the broad jump with the contact zone of an A-frame - resulting in a consistent jumping over the contact zone.

 

A little background -- We started with a 2020 which he performed admirably, although it was hard on his shoulders since he was one of those dogs that are lawn darts (i.e. he would come flying down the AF or DW to a full stop for a 2020 - often with his hind end elevating as he stopped with his shoulders). He hurt his shoulder playing ball in the backyard and had shoulder surgery and rehab. This caused me to re-examine my criteria for contact zone behavior and I decided I would train a RC to reduce the shoulder strain from his aggressive stop into 2020 behavior. (Actually, I had already started thinking about re-training to a RC before his injury, but the injury cemented my decision.) I have been using Silvia Trkman's method for training RCs - start the dog off on a flat plank and teach him to stride naturally over the plank, then raise one end of the plank gradually to full height. I throw a ball to keep him focused forward.

 

The process has been lengthy and frustrating to say the least. We are not anywhere near full height - the high end of the board is only about a foot off the ground - and he continues to jump the contact zone. I will have sessions when he seems to achieve a nice, natural stride and hits the contact zone and then we will have a couple of sessions when he is determined to jump the zone.

I joke with my friends that I should use him as a dock-diving dog since he knows the PRECISE take-off point to jump the contact zone.

 

I have tried very hard to follow the training regimen laid out by ST, but he is just not getting it. I lay the blame on myself for not being able to convey to him the behavior I desire. I think one of his problems is that he is so excited to chase the ball that he lengthens his stride and flies over the contact zone. Based on this thinking, I have tried standing on the other side of the plank (lowered AF) and treating him when he strides and hits the CZ. Treats are not quite as motivating as a ball. this approach seems to work OK, but he needs to learn to hit the cz with me running behind him.

 

As the title suggests, I am now wondering if he is confusing jumping the broad jump with jumping the contact zone on a lowered AF. (They are both flat and light-colored.) If so, would raising the AF help to remove the similarity between a broad jump and the lowered (essentially flat) AF?

 

Anyway, this post is long enough. Do you think my logic is off-base or could it be possible? Any training suggestions? I have not wanted to invest in a Manners Minder, but am seriously considering it now (having exhausted all other options I could think of). Since food is not as motivating for him as a ball, he may be able to control his striding through the CZ towards a MM, whereas he is so frantic to get to the ball, hr is only thinking about getting the ball and he often overstrides - at least that is my theory. I really like using the ball because I want his energy to be high to replicate his high energy at a trial, but I am not getting anywhere with training using the ball.

 

Clear as mud? Looking forward to any thoughts or tips. Thanks.

 

Jovi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ball... does he look straight ahead for the ball(anticipating where the ball will end up) as you throw it, or does he look at you or is he turning his head at all towards you?

I throw the ball so he is always looking ahead at the ball (focused-forward). How I started training (a la Silvia Trkman) was to hold his collar (or a harness) and throw the ball and release him at about the same time so he is only focused on the ball. Since I am behind him at that point, I can see his hind leg separation as he strides through the CZ - he gets a click. If he brings his hind legs together, he has gathered himself for a jump - therefore, no click. When he brings the ball back after a correct striding, I play like crazy with him with a tug toy (his reward). If he jumps, no tug toy playing when he brings the ball back. This is basically a two-level reward system according to ST. The dog gets the ball for just running, but the click and the tug game signal to them that they have performed the correct behavior. Supposedly, they learn that not jumping will result in a click and a tug game. I believe that my dog is so ball-happy, that just getting the ball is reward enough. He loves the tug game, but I don't think that the connection between his correct behavior (striding through) and the tug game is strong enough to make an impact on his ball-happy brain.

 

I have tried standing at the side of the lowered AF while he runs over. If he strides correctly, I throw the ball THE microSECOND he hits a foot in the CZ. BUT he does anticipate the ball throw and will turn his head to watch to see if I am throwing the ball. Because I do not want that behavior (head turn), I can not use that reward system. Sigh.

 

Jovi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may be wrong, but I would have thought that the 4 poles around the broad jump and the lack of them around the lowered AF would be a big enough visual to alleviate any confusion between the 2. Do you have poles at the bottom of the AF plank? That could be a source of confusion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may be wrong, but I would have thought that the 4 poles around the broad jump and the lack of them around the lowered AF would be a big enough visual to alleviate any confusion between the 2. Do you have poles at the bottom of the AF plank? That could be a source of confusion?

 

I was thinking something along the same lines.

 

One thing you could do is set up a broad jump, with poles, and a lowered A-Frame at the same time (obviously with some room in between!)

 

Have the dog do the broad jump, reinforce for jumping. Have the dog do the lowered A-Frame, reinforce for proper running contact performance.

 

That might help clear up some of the confusion since the dog will have a chance to see, firsthand, that the two are distinct because of the poles, or lack thereof.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may be wrong, but I would have thought that the 4 poles around the broad jump and the lack of them around the lowered AF would be a big enough visual to alleviate any confusion between the 2. Do you have poles at the bottom of the AF plank? That could be a source of confusion?

 

Thank you zenotri and Root Beer. You are right. I was thinking only in 2 dimensions, not in 3 dimensions.

 

I do not have any poles at the bottum of the AF - so my theory that he may be confused sounds less likely.

 

I like the idea of setting up both obstacles and alternating between the two so he understands the difference - even if he is not confused as I thought he might be. It will still be a good training scenario.

 

Jovi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've been in the same position as you are. Tried doing the ST method for months, and some other methods as well. Made no progress. My dog was striding, not bailing, but consistently coming off right above the contact zone at any height above 5'.

 

I don't think she was jumping the contact zone intentionally, or was confusing it with a broad jump. She WAS originally trained with a 2o/2o...and this is a big issue with re-training some dogs from a stopped to a running. In order to do a stopped contact, they must come over the top and collect; in order to do a running, there isn't really any collection, unless maybe you're asking for a tight turn off the frame. So dogs like mine come over the top and stride down, but they come over that apex with the muscle memory of collection.

 

This might not work for you. But in three weeks of working with the box method, we've made more progress than months of the ST method. I think a Hit-It board would work even better for my dog, but I wince at the price. As I said, she wasn't intentionally jumping the contact; my criteria just did not make clear to her that she should travel all the way down the frame, in extension. Trust me, we still have a ways to go...she hit a big snag once the frame went up past 5'5'. But tonight we went out and practiced, and she did the nicest RC she's ever done in her life, on a full height USDAA frame...sailed over the top, two strides down right into the contact zone. She's thinking about it, and trying out different ways of coming over the top, since she now has a clear criteria of striding into the box at the bottom. We'll see if we can replicate our success today during our next session.

 

Anyways, maybe it's worth thinking about trying a different method.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may be wrong, but I would have thought that the 4 poles around the broad jump and the lack of them around the lowered AF would be a big enough visual to alleviate any confusion between the 2. Do you have poles at the bottom of the AF plank? That could be a source of confusion?

 

This was my thought as well. Have you tried a hoop at the bottom of the A frame so the dog has to run under it, when I was retraining my older dog to a 4 on the floor this seemed to help him understand that he had to go all the way to the bottom and not jump it. I took a seminar with Lo Baker and she started the hoop very close to the bottom of the A frame and moved it further away to keep the dog driving towards it. She also used a static toy to reward not a moving ball. This was not to teach a running contact, but to teach speed over the equipment, but I do not see why it can not be used. My other thought was could you use a miners minder or similar instead of the ball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have read ST instructions a few times. In your description you say that the ball is the reward for both running and the correct striding into the CZ. How does the dog know which he is being rewarded for, especially if his ball means more than the tug. You might be better off using the tug for throwing as well as for the super reward. I understand well about the ball creating the ultimate drive, I have a ball crazed boy who can forget all else :) but wondering if it might be better for him to understand he's a very good boy for proper striding first, before introducing such a strong motivator as his ball. Then after a high success rate bring back the ball but maybe instead of throwing it, you lightly toss it underhand, and then as he continues to have a high success rate you can increase the intensity of your throw.

 

Have you checked out Daisy Peel's site? She is a big time Manner's Minder fan.

 

Just food for thought. Every dog and every way of training is so different :).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.

 

Urban Borders: It is comforting to hear that someone else has been through almost exactly the same experience I am having, and that there is hope. I remember the previous post by you in which you said that you had started the box method (I am assuming that it is the Rachel Sanders' method?) and that it seemed to be working. Glad to hear that your dog has continued to improve with that method. I just happen to have the Rachel Sanders' DVD - which I bought before I decided I liked the Trkman method better - and will now view it. Also, I knew that transitioning from a 2020 to a RC with the Trkman method would probably result in a less consistent behavior, but I was willing to give up some consistency in order to have less stress on the shoulder. I never envisioned that it would be this bad. Of course, I also do not rule out the fact that my training may not have been as 'precise' as required although I tried my best. I also thought about the Hit-It board, but have read quite a few comments on the internet that some people were disappointed in its performance (not as precise as desired).

 

Alligande: I have to chuckle about trying the hoop at the bottom. Not that it is a bad idea. It is just that my dog has stubbornly continued to jump the contact zone even when I have put a tunnel at the bottom of the AF. (The tunnel and the AF were touching!!) :) I don't know how he manages to fly over the AF at almost full speed and stride over the contact zone directly into the tunnel. I didn't think it was physically possible to do that. He is not a small BC - 21 1/4 inches at the shoulder. When I tried a static toy, he bounces off the end of the board (missing the CZ of course) and then pounced happily on the toy. He repeated this behavior regardless even if I placed the toy further away from the AF so that he had to run to it. Sigh.

 

Mickif: I will have to re-visit Daisy Peel's site. I haven't been to it for almost a year/year and a half. Maybe it will be more relevant now than before. I have been resisting the MM due to the cost. As for throwing the tug, I have to throw it so far out in front so he doesn't bounce over the CZ and pounce on the tug/toy (see response to Alligande). My light fleece tug doesn't travel that far, and my ball tug (with more weight for a longer throw) generates the same over-the-top response as a regular ball. When S. Trkman came to the States last spring, I was lucky enough to attend several of her seminars, including the RC workshop. I must admit that I was a little disappointed in the RC workshop as far as being able to work my dog (too many dogs and one person somehow monopolized Silvia's time disproportionately). The other workshops were fabulous. Her explanation of the two-tiered reward system sounded very logical, but as you say, every dog is different. I guess my dog didn't listen closely enough to Silvia during the workshop. :D I agree that the ball is too motivating for my dog, and I am trying to think of other rewards that I can use that I can deliver out far enough in front of him. (When the reward is too close, he pounces on it rather than striding through.)

 

My dog has presented me with an interesting challenge. Thank you for helping me think through this. I am optimistic that I should see an improvement in the near future.

 

jovi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My thoughts...I would guess the broad jump is completely unrelated, he is just unclear on the criteria he needs to achieve on the contact. This is common, especially when retraining.

 

My dog is similar in that while he love love loves tug, the throwing of the ball is just as high if not higher value to him and while I understand the concept of the two tier reward system, I think for that to happen the dog has to really have a distinct difference in the value of the rewards. Or...just food for thought from the amazing I-Cue dvd's from Kathy Sdao I am watching, the click itself has to have become a much stronger secondary reinforcer. SO that the combination of the primary reinforcer (the ball) and the secondary (the click) is very stong.

 

I was using the box method originally to train a running AF, with a four on the floor on DW. I got a bit frustrated with the running AF, switched to the FOTF for both and myself and my dog are much happier. He seems quite comfortable getting into the position. He runs off the board without slamming his shoulders, stops on the ground (I ask for at least front end of body down, but certainly you could do whatever is comfortable for your dog).

 

And I would add, just get the MM. It's good for all kinds of things and if you are set on the RC, maybe a new method is in order because you sound frustrated and it is no fun to train anything that makes you frustrated. I have one, have not used it for training contacts, so I can't comment on that specifically. Think of it like if it buys you five good sets of contacts in the ring, it has already paid for itself.

 

Or...you could just spend the 5 K and talk to SG, lol...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to laugh about your comment:

 

"I must admit that I was a little disappointed in the RC workshop as far as being able to work my dog (too many dogs and one person somehow monopolized Silvia's time disproportionately)."

 

Sadly, this is sooo common!

 

Have you ever used the rubber udder protectors that are used for milking? Dairies can only use them for so long and then they are replaced. We are able to get them by the box. If your dog is a heavy tugger you will go through them, but they have nice weight for throwing, good give for tugging and are very popular with many dogs over here.

 

Also, be careful if you decide to try the box method on the AF with his ball, really make sure his head doesn't turn as you throw. It won't work well, I know this one from experience! I decided to retrain with a 2o2o until he got his striding correct, which he has, but now I am afraid I will lose the great 2o2o if I go to a true running, so, as mentioned above, I quick release often and this works well.

 

 

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.

 

Alligande: I have to chuckle about trying the hoop at the bottom. Not that it is a bad idea. It is just that my dog has stubbornly continued to jump the contact zone even when I have put a tunnel at the bottom of the AF. (The tunnel and the AF were touching!!) :) I don't know how he manages to fly over the AF at almost full speed and stride over the contact zone directly into the tunnel. I didn't think it was physically possible to do that. He is not a small BC - 21 1/4 inches at the shoulder. When I tried a static toy, he bounces off the end of the board (missing the CZ of course) and then pounced happily on the toy. He repeated this behavior regardless even if I placed the toy further away from the AF so that he had to run to it.

 

jovi

 

That is some interesting gymnastics, how about a hoop attached at to the Aframe at the start of the contact zone, then another half way down, gradually moving them further down and away. I understand how hard it is once a dog thinks he has learnt how to do something persuading them otherwise, definately requires creative thinking and utilizing different ideas.

I just re-read the above qoute and realized that he had been rewarded with the static toy, even though he did go in the contact area, in agility right from the start they do a lot of exercises that involve a partner removing the reward if the dog does not get the exercise right, I do not have anyone to train with to had to press gang my husband a couple of times and it helped. The manners minder also fills this role.

Good luck, I am sure you will come up with a solution.

Good luck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Running contacts can be a work in progress :)

 

When I was training the a-frame with Ripley, I used a combination of the Rachel S. box method (doing all the ground work first), stride regulators (usually pool noodles) on the up side, and hoops both at the bottom and up-side. The "hoops" are not exactly hoops -- they are upright PVC frames that the dog has to duck under and are placed relatively close to the bottom of the frame. I always used a clicker when Rip hit the contact zone and rewarded for a RUNNING stride -- not leaping. Even though the ball is the highest value reward I could use, I found that it distracted him and when I tried to reward with the ball he would leave the frame too soon. The dogs are very smart and know that you are holding the ball even when they can't see it :). I found food rewards and the clicker to be the best for this purpose. When he started getting very consistent, I began adding a jump or tunnel after the frame as a reward for hitting the zone.

 

For most dogs, the way they perform the upside directly affects the way they perform the down side. So playing around with stride regulators on the upside can help too.

 

Good luck. I also believe that some dogs are better candidates for running contacts than others. Unless you are a super-amazing trainer like Silvia Trkman. I know I am not! Keep experimenting till you find what seems to be working.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For most dogs, the way they perform the upside directly affects the way they perform the down side. So playing around with stride regulators on the upside can help too.

 

Good luck. I also believe that some dogs are better candidates for running contacts than others. Unless you are a super-amazing trainer like Silvia Trkman. I know I am not! Keep experimenting till you find what seems to be working.

 

Don't believe anything said about not being a super-amazing trainer...Rip's frames are gorgeous and incredibly consistent.

 

Seconded about the upside though...have also been trying a bar just on the ground this week, about 3 feet from the upside of the frame, to help ensure that the bug on the windshield effect does not occur. That slows her momentum down, and impairs her ability to get over the apex. Same principle as having a hoop in front of the upside. If she can get over the apex appropriately, she seems to be physically capable of extending into the center of the box; otherwise, not so much.

 

Where were Rip's stride regulators, on the upside?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where were Rip's stride regulators, on the upside?

 

I bungeed pool noodles or PVC pipe ON the upside of the frame. Exact placement requires experimentation and depends on the dog's stride, but about 2/3 of the way up is a good place to start. I did NOT put them on the ground before the frame. As you know, Rip is very light on his feet and was never a frame slammer so we didn't have a problem with that.

 

Don't believe anything said about not being a super-amazing trainer...Rip's frames are gorgeous and incredibly consistent.

 

:lol: Thanks but I still think I'm just lucky to have such a smart and willing guy with good body awareness ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I havent had the time to train RC yet - mibby with my next dog

But

If I was doing it with ST method I would be faiding out the lure of the ball being chucked before I started raising the plank

Getting full speed tossing the ball

Then delay the chucking of the ball - so the dog runs the plank knowing the ball is comming but it dosent happen till he has done it at full speed

 

Then once you have that raising the plank

 

All I have read on it from ST she says HER dogs know the difference between playing with the toy or getting clicked and playing

But if in your case getting the ball is more reinforcing than the tuggy game then he dosent have to think too much about what is getting him the extra tuggy game because he always gets the best reinforcer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful, and helpful, replies.

 

I definitely agree that a RC can be a work in progress, and I know that it can be harder for a dog that is transitioning from a 2020 behavior.

to SS Cressa: I guess I am just stubborn. I really, really want a RC - mostly because I think it will place the least stress on my dog's shoulders, and partly because I get a thrill when it goes right. But I now realize that I may not (probably will not) get a reliable RC on this dog (and I am OK with that), but I am learning a whole heck of a lot about training a moving behavior. And Torque is really happy just to run. (He is still on a lowered obstacle so there is very little extra stress on the shoulder area that would be associated with repetitive downhill runs from a raised obstacle. I am not going to start raising the plank until I achieve better consistency with striding through the contact zone.)

 

Several people have also pointed out that my dog is self-reinforcing himself with the ball - that getting the ball is enough of a reward for him and that playing tug when he does hit the contact zone does not make enough of an impression. You have confirmed what I had been thinking for a while. I will change to using rewards that don't amp him up too much.

 

As I said in a previous email, I do have the Rachel S. video on RCs and will be watching it. Interestingly, I noticed that the cover of the DVD box has three dogs presumably doing RCs, but 2 of the dogs are not striding through. Instead they have their back feet together (in the yellow zone) in the 'launch' position.

 

Regarding the viewpoint that some dogs may have a stride (length) that is not appropriate for RCs: Check out the LoLaBu Land website (www.lolabuland.com) where Sylvia posted a recent video of a Beardie with a very long stride doing really nice RCs.

 

Again, Thanks for all the helpful comments,

 

Back to the drawing board now,

Jovi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...