Barbie Collies

[Kyrasmom]

Grace,

I don't think our dogs are not welcome here, I don't even think we're not welcome here despite differences of opinion now and again, but as we're posting photos of Fluff Butts. Here's a few of mine.

 

This is Will...staring at who knows but it's not sheep.

 

 

Proof that his butt really is fluffy: note the burrs

 

 

He's a kick ass sleeper

 

 

In full coat and intellectual expresson..or lack thereoff .. I can say that

 

 

He actually is pretty bright for a dog, probably not for a Border Collie. But he's not going to be bred, or shown, or do much beyond being my arm candy.

 

Maria

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think the Sport Collies are just as, if not even more so, dangerous to the future of the breed as the Barbie Collies are.

I agree, though functionally I tend to lump these together when this discussion comes up. In my mind I see "Breeders whose only goal is to produce superior livestock working dogs" (shorthand, "Working breeder"), and "everyone else."

 

I do agree that we should focus our discussion on THAT distinction rather than conformation dogs versus working dogs. But as I said, the dichotomy makes a great conversation starter. And here we are, conversing.

[Pippin's person]

Why would breeding sport collies be more dangerous to the breed than breeding for conformation? Is it because of the selection for drive?

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

I think it's because people who breed for sports specifically tend to select for DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE without selecting for impulse control (which selection for stock work necessarily includes) or the ability to keep the brain turned on while worked up.

I'm not sure about Flyball but that kind of dog wouldn't do well in agility for most regular competitors who make up the bulk of those buying dogs.

 

The idea of breeding for, or wanting a dog bred specifically for, agility just really confuses me. Why go for the lowest common denominator? Why not get a dog that was meant to be everything a Border Collie should be, which in and of itself includes the makings of the ultimate sports dog?

 

Because many of them do not know any different. I didn't before I found these boards. When I decided to get a BC, I talked to friends and acquaintances in agility. If all you see are sports bred dogs who do very well in your sport, you're not going to be inclined to think "Well, what about the BC's who are out herding sheep? I should get one of those instead." Just as working people want to breed the best working dogs, sports people often feel that the best sports dogs should be bred to get more of them.

 

So far, I personally know a couple of agility dogs who come from real working border collies. They're both in training and I'll be very interested to see how they do. So maybe word is getting out that great agility dogs can come from great working dogs.

 

Quinn is sports bred and fortunately is everything I could want in both agility and day to day companionship. We just started lessons herding sheep. I don't know enough about working stock to say what his abilities are but he definitely is crazy for sheep. I was relieved that at his first lesson he quickly learned killing them was not an option. The instructor said Quinn had lots of good instinct and was learning very quickly. Due to my almost complete ignorance, I can only assume he's being sincere. I was apprehensive about getting Quinn involved with working stock because of the Great Border Collie Divides. I made Quinn's breeding clear from the get go with the instructor in case he didn't want to work with us. He's been very pleasant and has expressed interest in seeing Quinn's pedigree though I've warned him that only there are only a handful of working dogs in the 3 generation tree. My guess is when it comes to working stock, Quinn will always be an extremely enthusiastic amateur.

 

I think the Sport Collies are just as, if not even more so, dangerous to the future of the breed as the Barbie Collies are.

 

I've heard this from others as well. Because sports breeders keep infusing working dogs into their lines, you mean? Or that people think the two types are basically the same? I do think that many sports people don't understand the whole working aspect of these dogs. My Agility/BC friends have been amazed that Quinn who is such an easy going, happy go lucky guy has been so keen to get to sheep. They thought he'd be the least likely of any of our dogs because he lacks some of the quirkier, more ballistic behaviors they see as evidence of strong herding instincts.

[Carson Crazies]

They thought he'd be the least likely of any of our dogs because he lacks some of the quirkier, more ballistic behaviors they see as evidence of strong herding instincts.

This is one thing I find interesting, and I've heard the sentiment frequently coming from some of my acquaintances that are not well acquainted with real working dogs. My two working bred Border Collies (yes, even a 20 week old puppy) are by FAR the most sensible dogs I have. They have plenty of energy certainly when it's called for - but also the ability to turn it off and control it (yep, part of that working package). When I agreed to take June I was a little afraid, because my BC Mix, Bree, was a random bred mixed oops puppy and totally climbed the walls. Granted she's settled down a good bit as she's matured, but when she was younger she was a psychodog. Then I get June home, and I'm calling to ask, "are you SURE she's a Border Collie? She's nothing like Bree. Thank God."

 

I find it interesting that folks are equating ballistic and overly quirky dogs with "herding instinct" - because in my burgeouning limited experience I've found working border collies to be quite sensible and nice to be around. Intent on the stock certainly, but berserkers otherwise, no way (as a GENERAL rule).

[Carson Crazies]

On another note, I think the message is a good one - that breeding for working ability (the whole package) selected for by working one's dogs on stock to the highest level (whether that be on the Open ISDS style trial field, at home on the farm, or both) is essential to the breed's welfare - and the welfare of those of us who need and love the breed. I think sometimes our delivery gets in our way, but I do think the message needs to be repeated as many times as possible.

 

When I look at the pictures of conformation bred dogs I *can* see a marked difference in the way they look vs. the way working bred dogs look. That's something that the average layperson will readily be able to see as well - if they're looking. I don't think we should judge the conformation dogs vs. the working dogs based on how they look, but it is a useful tool to open the door to discourse, if used correctly - and I don't think we have to bash the dog to do so... the dogs will speak for themselves in the end, in that respect. Even my family, who knows basically nothing about working vs. confo. can see the difference and wants to know more - and why??

 

I think this board does serve as outreach, and I do think we reach far more people than we could ever imagine.

[SoloRiver]

I've heard this from others as well. Because sports breeders keep infusing working dogs into their lines, you mean? Or that people think the two types are basically the same? I do think that many sports people don't understand the whole working aspect of these dogs. My Agility/BC friends have been amazed that Quinn who is such an easy going, happy go lucky guy has been so keen to get to sheep. They thought he'd be the least likely of any of our dogs because he lacks some of the quirkier, more ballistic behaviors they see as evidence of strong herding instincts.

 

I think you've basically summed it up in this paragraph but for me it's because (a) the agility people tend to view their dogs as "working" dogs and ( the public has a hard time knowing the difference. "Not conformation" is not the same thing as "work." Either way, conformation or sport, it involves selection away from what the dogs are supposed to be, which is livestock working dogs.

 

Agility isn't work. It isn't what the dogs should be bred for. I will add to this that I am an agility enthusiast, or I was when I had a dog to train in agility (Solo's bum hip has ended his agility career -- I don't care quite enough about agility to hurt him, even though he LOVES agility and is very good at it). A good agility dog should be athletic and have some control, but the fact is that an agility dog can get away with having a lot less brains and impulse control than a good working dog needs. Not to mention all the other things that go into a good working dog.

 

There are sport-bred dogs that turn out to be good working dogs, I am sure, but it's either because their immediate ancestors were working dogs, or it's a fluke. I'm not willing to bet on flukes. Even if I were only looking for a dog to do agility and flyball with, I want the whole package.

 

It saddens me that there is a widespread misconception that the dogs who are the most out of control are somehow the most "herdy" (god how I hate that term). One trip to a sheepdog trial should disabuse anyone of that notion. Spinning, barking, and crazed is not how I picture a good Border Collie.

 

If the stereotype were true, a real working dog would have been my last choice for a second Border Collie. I was looking for an extremely sane, easily-managed dog to add to a household that already contained one Border Collie (randomly bred from mostly good working lines) who is, shall we say, behaviorally challenged at times. Fly is everything I was looking for, and she is an imported working dog who really did come off the "hill."

[ShoresDog]

This is such an interesting thread!

 

It makes me wish I knew something about Daisy's breeding. I know nothing about her heritage. I didn't even get her on purpose! We'd had nothing but cats for years, and then she showed up needing a home. Two years later I am crazy about her and very, very interested in border collies. She seems to have originated on a farm in Utah, but that's about all I know. She's smart, easy to teach, and very bonded to us, but she's shy of new people and doesn't like delivery people coming on our property, not at all!

[juliepoudrier]

Grace,

It has been said on this forum time and again that all dogs (and their owners) are welcome here. Someone will invariably come into a thread like this, say they have a "fluffbutt" and then say they're offended and feel unwelcome. No one is slamming your personal dog or any other AKC dog that belongs to any other member of these boards. I know it's hard to make the distinction, but it's really not about individual dogs as much as it's about breeding priorities. And the breeding priorities of the conformation breeders are not conserving in the breed the traits that make a border collie a border collie. I hope that people who own conformation-bred dogs can look beyond their initial taking offense to try to understand why the working-dog folks feel the way they do.

 

I'm on a list where folks regularly make snide comments/innuendos about working bred border collies--I could be offended, but actually I stayed on that list because it allows me to adress the misconceptions they have. Recently I had someone tell me that their border collie was not good on a small field because it didn't have enough space to work. This echoes a sentiment on this particular group that border collies aren't good at close-in work--they need wide-open spaces to be effective. I always wonder how they figure the average shepherd/farmer gets the worming, sorting, shearing, etc., done if his/her dogs are incapable of working in close spaces. So I told the person making the comment that her dog certainly could learn to work in small spaces....

 

But, it's difficult to make a case about the difference between show bred vs. working bred without illustrating the difference. While it's not nice to pick on one particular breeder's dogs, I think it's acceptable to get a picture from somewhere to show the difference.

 

Does that difference make you dog any less perfect for you? No. Does it make you a second-class citizen? No. I hope though that once you get past being offended you can see where our fear lies and you will take the comments in the spirit they were intended. There's nothing wrong with liking a full-coated, classically marked dog with tipped ears. But you can find such dogs in the working dog gene pool, and if you (the generic you) would do so, then it would be one step toward not allowing the conformation folks define what a border collie should be for the general public. (And believe it or not, lots of working dog folks like those classic looks too.)

 

I also agree with Melanie about the sport-bred dogs. I think the whole weird/quirky/too intense comments such folks make is just their justification for breeding something else. I live in a house with nine working bred border collies. My cats are more annoying, quirky, weird than most of my border collies! And the sport bred dogs do still look a lot like the working bred dogs (if you discount the candy colors), so it's more difficult to draw attention to the differences on a forum like this than it is to do the same with conformation bred dogs. That's my two cents and then some....

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

] I also agree with Melanie about the sport-bred dogs. I think the whole weird/quirky/too intense comments such folks make is just their justification for breeding something else.

J.

I think it's true that many folks in the sports world believe that "herdy" is pretty much the same as intensity and that the sport they are doing is a way to channel that--I don't generally agree with that position, but it is certainly the way the breed is often positioned and "herdiness" explained--that and circling or gathering things.

 

What I've observed among folks who do flyball and agility seriously competitively or as their "main" thing to do with their dogs is that they do many things in their training of the dogs to specifically increase the intensity/wackiness. In other words, it seems to me that many of these dogs *could* have off switches and be less wacky but their owners like them that way and see that as one means of making them more competitive. I've also observed many people doing only the things tied to the particular sport and otherwise leaving the dog mostly kenneled (e.g. the Ruff Love approach).

 

I agree completely with the position that breeding BCs should be based on working ability and that breeding for other things messes with what makes BCs what they are. At the same time, though, how they are trained and taught to be in the world matters too. At herding trials, handlers don't let their dogs be wacky and correct them if they are--if they were allowed to be, I'm sure many of them could be just as nutty in channeling their intensitiy as what you see in some sport collies. At flyball tournaments, the dogs are allowed to (and in some cases encouraged to) spin themselves into a frenzy.

 

We got our first Border Collie after getting involved in flyball with our mutt. We resisted for a long time because we thought they were way too intense and needy for us. We were completely wrong--we have four of them from different breedings, and like Julie, our cats are probably more challenging in many ways. The one we have (the first one) who was bred for flyball (and friendly temperament) is probably the mellowest of the bunch because we worked our butts off when she was a pup to make sure she would settle down--she definitely has the stuff to be a nutcase, but she generally keeps it in check.

 

Anyway, this is a great discussion and very thought-provoking.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I totally agree, and if ever I learn that there are dogs reading here whose feelings might be hurt I promise to take down any thread that disparages the cookies 'n clones ideal.

 

Will is obviously a lovable dog, and those are great pictures.

 

>

 

Well, yeah. If y'all weren't welcome, you wouldn't be here. In fact I admire you for staying to listen to things you may often not want to hear.

[borderlicious]

Julie, I appreciate the explanation. I know it wasn't a slam on my dog, but for some reason it's difficult to not take threads like this personally. Yet for some reason I continue to click on them. Insatiable curiosity.

 

I know why the people on this board feel the way they do. Despite owning a "Barbie collie", I feel the same way. I was 14 years old and unaware of the working/show split when I acquired my dog. In the 2 years I've had him, I've learned quite a bit about the breed and the different perspectives, and made the decision not to support the AKC/show side of the breed. The reason I joined these boards was to learn more about the breed as it should be.

 

I lurked here for nearly a year before I joined. I should be used to this by now. For the most part I do try to suck it up and ignore comments on how dumb, useless and pathetic dogs like mine are but it just struck a nerve today. When I stop taking it personally and look at it from a logical point of view, it makes perfect sense.

 

I'm glad that people like me are welcome here, despite the differences in our dogs. I really appreciate this board and the people here who are willing to take the time to educate newbies like me.

 

 

Grace

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

<< Personally I think people are fair game and the dogs are not. >>

 

I totally agree, and if ever I learn that there are dogs reading here whose feelings might be hurt I promise to take down any thread that disparages the cookies 'n clones ideal.

 

That just made me laugh out loud and is a point well taken.

 

My biggest fear, as I have learned a lot despite my level of agreement on some things, is that there are so many people with show bred dogs who can make a difference going forward if they don't first get defiant and run off because they/we emotionally want to defend their/our beloved dog from being called vacant or stupid or ugly.

 

Show breeders are most likely not going to be posting or lurking here (if not for other reasons) but I know there are show bred dog owners, such as myself, who would make different choices in the future but still will have a knee jerk reaction simply because they adore their dog. I'd like to think that it's these people who understand the real motives behind these threads. By and large, this thread has actually gone quite well.

 

And now I'm going to see who of my fluffies wants to learn to read.

 

Maria

[Brandon M]

hey Lance is related to Happy! lol Critter here is her grandsire

 

pssst Critter is a show champion reg name "Ch Shorlands Critter Getter"

hey, thats awesome I have him down as Ch Shorelands Critter Getter, STDs ONYX. I'm not sure about Lance's mom's pedigree but she was bred by Peachy Keen Border Collies. I think critter was either bred by them too, or partially owned by them. I don't know though.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Hey, I'l admit I'm a sucker for a drippy coat - combine it with a black face with nice clear tan shepherd's spots and I'm putty in your hands. Every time I see that pic of Scrimigeour's Ben I just have to stare.

 

I'm sure it's OK to link to this one:

 

 

I do shudder thinking what this would be like during sticky burr season - not to mention the silky-soft coat that is prevalent in the breed ring. But there are these things called brushes and if I had THIS dog to work my farm I'm sure I's get over the sticky burr thing.

 

As Julie said, it's not the dogs themselves as nearly every characteristic they have comes from the working gene pool after all. It's the breeding they represent - choosing to breed for soft expressions, teddy bear heads, and luxurious coat instead of what makes Border collies such extraordinary dogs.

 

It's really no skin off my nose, in fact, that the Australasians have done this to their native strain. What burns me is that the conformation breeders HERE are trying to say that those dogs are the real Border collies.

 

What we have is the "unimproved" strain, friends. The conformation breeders (and some sport breeders) are applying their vast knowlege of "structure", genetics, temperament, aesthetics, and "Taking the BC to the next level!" Woo hoo.

[ness_bc]

Sorry we didn't get to meet up mjk05. Would have been nice to see some other "proper" BCs. Glad to hear that people are talking about us . We owe a lot of people over there a good deal as everybody was just so nice.

 

Next time hey - I will be back with Ness possibly next year if I can find somebody to stay with. We didn't get to go herding which is one thing I would have loved to have at least tried while we were there since we had been invited to.

 

I must say I am still partial to the look of the show BC which is why I prefer the longer coat. Its just a personal preference thing but true its not necessarily the most convenient for our climate.

 

I fell in love with Snazzy, Nifty and Striker (all ISDS registered dogs) Blue Moon BCs for the rest of you who don't know who I am talking about.

 

In fact before that I would have been looking for another show line BC but was struggling to find what I wanted within those lines (exactly what makes the ISDS BC so special)so next time around I am certainly looking for something different.

 

I have been around here a long time and read the other debates and never really entered into it before but my trip over west certainly gave me a new appreciation for just how special those working bred BCs are.

 

ETA. I too have video of my show bred BC "working" in inverted commas for a reason. Mostly it was just chasing but she did actually do a bit of proper type circling - tail down BC style.

 

I should also add that Ness isn't in fact registered with the ANKC (AKC equivalent body here) and is only on the associate register. Despite having two ANKC registered parents. Breeder just never bothered to register the litter.

[2 Devils]

My bc 3/4 working and 1/4 AKC (I think). It could be a 50/50 split but never really bothered to keep up on it. I hate admitting she has some AKC in her. She was an accidental breeding.

 

Anyways, I almost chose not to get her because of the AKC in her lines. Her sire is a big fluffy red dog. He is gorgeous and I think his dad was Imp Spot (at least one of them - also a big fluffy red dog but was working line until he was registered with AKC).

 

I also do flyball with my dogs and admit to having one sport bred dog (a borderjack at that) but it was at a week moment. I actually do not condone the breeding of sport dogs including the mixed breeds like I have...

 

I am against the AKC for what they have done to many breeds out there as someone else stated look at the German Shepherd - my favorite breed but I will never own another one. How many shelties can actually go out and herd? Look at what has happened to the Golden Retriever - they are becoming aggressive dogs, health problems and I believe considered the breed with most instance of cancer and they have thyroid problems.

 

I think what most people are saying is they are against the AKC Border Collies breeding but not against the dogs or even the owners of those dogs just why they are being bred.

 

Here is Tempe for those that missed her in the photo section. She does not look AKC to me Of course my mom calls her Dopey because at times she really does look like she is having a blonde moment...

 

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

She does not look Dopey in that picture! Is Imp. Spot (Rising Sun I assume) really her sire? Or her grandsire? If her sire then our pups are kissin' cousins. Tedlet's paternal grandsire is also Wilson's Spot (Imp. Spot's sire).

 

The big fluffy red dog was rather well bred. He goes back to Tweed, too, the sire of the famous Burtersett Lad, among other noteworthy dogs.

[borderlicious]

I love Tempe There are a lot of Imp. Spots out there, but the only fluffy red one I know of is Rebecca Beckmann's dog (he's since died I believe). If he's her grandsire, she sure didn't pick up his looks!

 

My dog is 50/50, but he got the looks of the show dogs. Only thing that he inherited physically from his dam was her ears and speckling (which he has all over his legs, though it doesn't show up in pictures) He's a lovely fluke though; it seems he got the biddability, responsiveness and focus from the working dogs behind him. He'll probably never be a great (or even decent) sheepdog, but I love him dearly anyway.

 

 

Grace

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I just reread - I've had a fever all day - so our pups are REALLY kissing cousins if the Beckmann's Spot dog was actually Tempe's grandsire.

 

Wilson's Spot seemed to throw either really fluffy dogs or really slick dogs. It's pretty funny, really, considering that the AKC people basically use this line to produce pretty dogs with some performance ability. Not the Beckmanns' necessarily, I'm talking about in general. Roy Goutte has some interesting remarks on ##Spot if you can find them in his books.

[Brandon M]

borderlicious, i really like those two pics you posted. the first looks all friendly, the second looks all business. Dakota looks like one cool dog!

[SoloRiver]

Solo goes back to ##Spot's dam, Peg. Whee!

[kelpiegirl]

I think all your dogs are gorgeous!!!!!!!!! I am not saying that to be a polly anna either

Melanie- Solo is clearly a very intuitive and wise soul. Dakota has such a beautiful coat, and looks like he has focus galore!! Critter is a handsome schmandsome! Will- that pic with the tongue, is one of, if not THE best candid shot I have EVER seen- he is very beautiful too!!! Ben- classic "collie" from old times, and just a testament to where this breed comes from. Tempe- the souped up 21st century after burner collie- gotta love 'em!!!

There really isn't a point here- except maybe that each dog is really cool in their own right. PERIOD.

Julie

[2 Devils]

Becca - ## Imp Spot (Rising Sun) is her grandsire. Like I have I said I am not into the whole lineage thing so thankfully you mentioned Rising Sun and not just the person's name.

 

Tempe has so many relatives out there it is unreal. One day I am hoping to have her papers so I can do the research even though she is spayed.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Tempe is also related to my Cord dog. His grandsire was Burtersett Lad, whose sire was Red Spot's grandsire.

 

Imported Red Spot doesn't have the ## doo hickey's, it's HIS sire, Wilson's Spot (## means he won the Supreme overseas). There will be a quiz tomorrow, be sure to bring a #2 pencil.