Barbie Collies

[Brandon M]

I see you are in Davis, Betsy. Thats cool! im pretty close to you. The vet school there in Davis is awesome and we bring animals there a lot. My boss actually teaches in the vet school there.

[Betsy R.]

That is really neat. Yeah, I am a second year animal science major at UC Davis. I love the school , the town and the people. I am hoping to eventually get into the vet school and become a large animal vet. It is nice to talk to another CA BC owner since so many of the members of this board seem to be in the midwest. It is hard to find herding competions and trials in this area, everyone is so into agility and flyball around here. Not too many flocks of sheep running around this college town.

[ness_bc]

Just to add to the Barbie Collie thread...........

 

My very own Barbie Collie. Ness aka Lochness CDX AD JDX

 

 

Can't herd sheep for anything, does agility semi-reasonably, is pretty good at obedience and is as fluffy as they come with Australian/New Zealand Champions and Grand Champion fluffies in her pedigree but I love her just the same.

 

Its hard to come by a decently bred working BC down under. At least a rough coat with no kelpie mixed in.

 

And another photo (or two) for good measure:

 

 

[Black Watch Debatable]

Originally posted by Betsy R.:

It is hard to find herding competions and trials in this area

Aw, you're less than an hour from Zamora [green with envy]. It's one of the best trials in the country. The whole area has a number of good trainers and trials --- check out the Northern California Working Sheepdog Org., and don't miss the Zamora Hills Trial this coming February. I'm hoping to drive up and spectate. [i'll be in Davis for a bit this weekend, on the way to Yosemite with my dad for his 80th birthday. Yay Dad!]

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Aw, Ness, we don't mean you - the concept of Barbies are really an American thing, where they imported Nessie's relatives to dominate and stack the deck in the breed ring as quickly as possible. It's utter insanity when a breed exists one way in a country for 100 years and then the AKC trots out something totally different and says, "That's your standard." In your country Barbies ARE Border collies.

 

You're right, it's hard to find a BC in Australia/NZ that isn't a trot-trot expert, or of questionable parentage, or, well, not a BC. That's why we have these discussions - it's so easy for the influence of a kennel club to push a breed in that direction - we don't want that to happen here.

 

Edited: Sorry, "Nessie" slipped out - she's just so CUTE and of course Nessie is very natural . . .

[mjk05]

Its hard to come by a decently bred working BC down under. At least a rough coat with no kelpie mixed in.

That's cobblers, Ness, I'm pleased to say. There are LOTS of purebred working collies over here.

 

Pity we didn't catch up when you were over here in WA recently, you could have met some of our dogs. Almost all of them have extremely long registered pedigrees, going back to ISDS import dogs, or to dogs imported before the ISDS existed. Even some recently imported...

Jim and Fly, 2 of ours, were imported in dam from Scotland (g'children of Davidson's Star on one side, and David Brady's Craig on the other):

Fly:

 

As far as long coats go, yes, short coats are easier in working environments here, but there are plenty of longcoated dogs. Our Sally, as an example:

(more pics here)

Or this dog, not ours, pretty successful trial and work dog (another breeder, different line):

 

If you're ever looking, drop me a line- there are lots of decent breeders here and over East

.

Ness is lovely, BTW, and I heard lots of nice things about her after your recent visit here

[mjk05]

the concept of Barbies are really an American thing...In your country Barbies ARE Border collies.

 

You're right, it's hard to find a BC in Australia/NZ that isn't a trot-trot expert, or of questionable parentage, or, well, not a BC.

Oh, SO not true, SO not true, Rebecca!

Why does everyone believe that??

[Black Watch Debatable]

Originally posted by ness_bc:

My very own Barbie Collie. Can't herd sheep for anything [...] as fluffy as they come with Australian/New Zealand Champions and Grand Champion fluffies in her pedigree but I love her just the same.

You shouldn't have to feel defensive about her.

 

This is where these threads go off the rails, IMHO, and why I find myself agreeing with Pearse: we're mocking the dogs. Cookie-cutter dogs, Aussies with tails, stubby legs, stupid expressions... We're mocking them, and it's disingenuous to hold the dogs up to ridicule and then insist that the breeders were the target all along. What's the intent? Is it to shame Ness's owner and others into never posting another photo of their dogs? To cold-shoulder people with show dogs off the Boards? The NZ/Australian-bred Barbie isn't going to disappear. Given the nature of breeding to a conformation standard, the show variety will become less and less like the working breed as the years go by --- and that's a good thing. What purpose does it serve to disparage [by association] an alert, lovely, well-loved dog like Ness?

 

I've spent some time nosing around the AKC "parent club" [bCSA] site, and the herding people (with their ABCA-bred dogs) seem to be tiring of the Mickey Mouse AKC courses: herding entries were down at the National Specialty, and a couple of the top competitors were complaining that the "B" courses were disgracefully easy.

 

Outreach, anyone? We may never reach the versatility folks or the title-hunters who don't want sheep of their own, but others may see the light.

 

A suggestion: You Tube and Google Video. It's the wave of the future, as they say Do a search for "border collie herding" videos and you'll find all kinds of stuff like Our First Time on Sheep and Fluffy Chases the Hose, but next to no real stock work. We could use some great, well-filmed, four- or five minute videos of a dog making a tremendous outrun, or holding a single, or doing a 200-yard crossdrive or a great lookback --- stuff people will NEVER see at any AKC event. Or videos of farm work, of stock treated right in contrast to the poor critters chased all over the arena at AKC trials. A Baxter Black riff on the real, working stockdog would be cool. Yeah, I'm a stockdog geek, but I'd love to see a five-minute, professional quality video of the set-out crew working at Soldier Hollow ("anatomy of a trial"), say, or a composite of dogs solving the swale puzzle at Zamora. A video version of the info/ad the USBCC has posted in those puppy annuals would be good. And I'd love to hear a smart announcer ask a few good questions of Bev Lambert or Haley Howard or Jack Knox during a five minute video on shedding.

 

Found this on Google: Video link. Someone tell that poor announcer what "Open" means...!

[Black Watch Debatable]

Originally posted by mjk05:

quote:

---

the concept of Barbies are really an American thing...In your country Barbies ARE Border collies.

 

You're right, it's hard to find a BC in Australia/NZ that isn't a trot-trot expert, or of questionable parentage, or, well, not a BC.

Oh, SO not true, SO not true, Rebecca!

Why does everyone believe that??

The dog people from Australia* I've run into here in SoCal said the same thing Rebecca said: that there are no working border collies in Australia, only cross-bred farm mutts. The country's authentic border collie [they said] is the show variety. (Australian: "'Preserve working ability'? [scoffs] No breed nowadays can do what it used to do. [pointing at Piper] What kind of dog is that?" Me: "A border collie." Australian [with genuine concern]: "What's wrong with her coat?")

 

It's possible that the show dog fraternity in Australia is as ignorant of working dogs as the show crowd here.

 

*[All two of them --- agility folks]

[kelpiegirl]

Actually, I have heard the very same thing- from working Kelpie folks living in Australia- that the BC is no longer the "go to" dog for working situations. Of course, maybe they are a bit biased... But, I have heard this from pretty much 100% of the folks in Australia whom I have talked to about it.

Julie

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

I've spent some time nosing around the AKC "parent club" [bCSA] site, and the herding people (with their ABCA-bred dogs) seem to be tiring of the Mickey Mouse AKC courses: herding entries were down at the National Specialty, and a couple of the top competitors were complaining that the "B" courses were disgracefully easy.

 

Outreach, anyone? We may never reach the versatility folks or the title-hunters who don't want sheep of their own, but others may see the light.

Hey Luisa,

I am on a list that is largely composed of AKC/AHBA/ASCA types and while many (probably the majority) think that the AKC herding program could be better, they aren't so disgruntled as to support a "revolution," so to speak. I gather from their discussions that two problems exist:

 

(1) There are so many herding breeds out there, all with different original purposes, that there's no way to accurately test those breed-specific abilities at a national level, hence the trials are lowered to a level that allows all breeds to be competitive using the same sorts of tests. (e.g., one regular poster, who has beardies, states that beardies were used to clear brush-covered hillsides where bark might be important to help move stock down the hill. She will ask how the current AKC program tests that purpose in her breed. But if AKC instituted such a test, the corgi folk, whose dogs had a different purpose, couldn't possibly compete--it's not a "level playing field.") And it's cost-prohibitive to try to establish breed-specific tests they say (and they're probably right). Also, it's in AKC's best financial interest to make the tests easy enough for people with any herding breed to be successful--otherwise they wouldn't pay those expensive entry fees, and that means less money in the AKC bank.

 

(2) Trying to push change through AKC is nigh impossible. These are the folks who breed dogs for, pay money into, and actively participate in the herding program (the people on the list I'm on). And yet if you believe them, and I have no reason not to, AKC doesn't hear their voices when they want to implement improvements to the herding program. That doesn't mean they aren't trying, but change, if it comes at all, will be very slow. Apparently the people in charge of the herding program aren't even necessarily people who have ever worked stock with their dogs, nor do they have any desire to do so. Trying to make changes when the people in charge have no clue is certainly problematic.

 

So although I think it would be nice if the people who actually compete in AKC herding could make positive changes in the program, I doubt it's going to actually happen.

 

Oh, and I should add that often these same people are quite rabid about anything border collie, especially "border collie trials." As many as are unhappy with the B course (small version of USBCHA/ISDS trial course), just as many think the course is designed just for border collies and has no relevance to them or their dogs in real life. Now the folks in BCSA may indeed be tired of the small/easy courses, but they also aren't rushing out in droves to trial in USBCHA trials, which certainly would be tougher, if that's what they're looking for.

 

It's a very messy situation if you ask me (and you didn't but you got my opinion anyway).

 

J.

[mjk05]

It's possible that the show dog fraternity in Australia is as ignorant of working dogs as the show crowd here.

I'm sure that's true, sadly. Most of our agility BC fraternity seem to come from the Show BC world, and I hear things like "must be part kelpie, it has prick ears/smooth coat/funny colours" regularly from them (not maliciously, they just don't know).

 

You can drive 3 or 4 hours out of town and meet plenty of well-bred working collies (and kelpies, and koolies, huntaways and crossbreeds). Some of them might well be unregistered, and many of their owners won't mention their pedigree when asked about their dog (its secondary to how the dog works).

 

But there are lots of dogs with well-kept pedigrees around.

 

only cross-bred farm mutts

Yes, that is true (as I'm sure it is in the UK and US)- many of them are great working dogs, too. I know a few dogs with a NZ Heading Dog or Beardie some generations back. But I don't think it makes them inferior to the documented purebreds, especially if they are still bred for the work.

 

But its also a common misconception among the public (and I'm sure agility people etc) that anything that doesn't look like a Show BC (as seen on TV, at all agility rings etc) must be a "crossbred mutt". I've had some of my purebred dogs called that on various occasions (even the ISDS reg'd dogs). Guess they believe the show ring hype. Although it always confuses me that our local dog lines are considered "mutts" because in many cases their pedigrees go back to before the ISDS existed, but those are the same dogs many of the show lines were developed from.

 

Also interesting that our Kennel Club (the ANKC) doesn't recognise the ISDS, so most imported ISDS dogs are incorporated only into the working collie pool (unless they had been KC-reg'd in their country of origin before export). I think that's part of the reason that we have such a defined split between the show-type dogs and the working dogs- because there hasn't been any intermixing for numerous decades.

[mjk05]

from working Kelpie folks living in Australia- that the BC is no longer the "go to" dog for working situations. Of course, maybe they are a bit biased... But, I have heard this from pretty much 100% of the folks in Australia whom I have talked to about it.

Obviously there's a bit of bias among kelpie people vs. collie people about which is the superior working dog for Australian conditions (we have both, my OH prefers collies, I prefer kelpies, but I think we have a fairly even perspective). Whether or not someone prefers kelpies to collies for their working situation is a different issue to the misconception that there are virtually no working BCs left in Australia (which is completely untrue).

 

You're quite welcome to come visit us anytime you're out this way to see Australian working border collies at work. An overall majority of our 3sheep trialling dogs are border collies- definitely not ANKC ones- and most of them are also working on large properties- I'm sure any Australian with any experience of working or trial dogs would agree with that. But asking people who come from the agility world or show world and happen to own some working-type kelpies, I don't know what you'd hear.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Yes, the point of course is not that there are no working Border collies. It's that we don't want the US Border collie to follow the Australian/NZ road where the show breed is so dominant that even those in the breed don't know how many actual purebred working dogs there are or where to find them.

 

Right now the conformation dog is the splinter group. Long may it be so. But it won't stay that way unless we work at keeping our dogs distinct, and ensuring that the public is aware fo the difference (and which dogs represent true breed type, ie working ability).

 

Luisa, I talk about the dogs and point out the differences because that's easy to see and easy for the general public to get their heads around. Start talking about big outruns and shedding and gathering sheep on the hill and their eyes glaze over. But put a picture of a owrking bred dog full of fire, next to one of those candy-sweet dollfaced conformation dogs, and in my experience JPQ goes AHA, I see your poitn. Yes it's superficial, but it's a starting place for a more constructive discussion, even with diehard AKC types from other breeds.

 

[edit: jumped the gun on the post button]

[mjk05]

Yes, the point of course is not that there are no working Border collies. It's that we don't want the US Border collie to follow the Australian/NZ road where the show breed is so dominant that even those in the breed don't know how many actual purebred working dogs there are or where to find them.

Yeah, fair enough.

Although reading stuff like that posted above about Australian working border collies is a big point for me- very disturbing how incorrect it is.

 

For what its worth, those "in the breed" in Australia do know exactly where to find border collies- its actually very easy. Its just that "the breed" here is an almost complete split, so it depends which world you're asking. City-based people who only know BCs through agility and advertising are clueless anywhere in the world.

 

The show breed is not dominant here- in fact I'd be surprised if 20% of all Australian BCs were Show BCs. Its just that for some reason that's the image people overseas have accepted.

 

I suspect the reasons are two-fold:

One- the split is so dramatic, even more so than in the US. Our working dogs aren't available to the Show BC people, and there's no reason for the working people to be interested in the Show dogs, so they really are drastically different.

 

Two- most of the working dog people don't spend time publicising their dogs (apart from locally). We don't even have much internet coverage in many rural/remote areas, and many working dog people are full-time farmers, they don't have second jobs which incorporate computers etc, so they are never on the internet. Plus lots of them are retired, and judging by my in-laws, somewhat computer-illiterate.

 

Its something worth considering if you guys ever approach a complete split in the breed (ie the AKC stops accepting ABCA/ISDS dogs, or similar), because the Show BC crowd may lose all interest in recognising working dogs as "purebred", and you'll get the situation we have here, where they almost seem to have a vested interest in publicising their own lines as "the real purebred BC", and even denigrating the working dogs as "mutts".

 

Of course, I doubt any of the many thousands of Australian working border collies or their owners care much I'm just trying to do the same thing you are- keep up the profile of the working BC (except unfortunately everyone seems to think ours are rare?!)

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by mjk05:

But its also a common misconception among the public (and I'm sure agility people etc) that anything that doesn't look like a Show BC (as seen on TV, at all agility rings etc) must be a "crossbred mutt". [/QB]

What I've found here in the states is that people who have been doing agility for any length of time generally do not want a show BC, at least not a show BC through and through. Someone truly interested in agility wants a dog built for speed and agility. They're not buying the show ring hype since conformation BC's tend to be too heavy boned and lacking drive to excel in agility.

 

Sports people do tend to be drawn to the more unusual colors. I'll hear people saying they want their next dog to be a red or a merle or a blue. A lot of sports bred dogs will have conformation lines mixed in with working and sporting lines -- that whole "these dogs do it all" concept. Now you do see conformation people who do agility, but that's different from true sports people.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

All that I see being mocked here is the ideal of breeding border collies to look like that, not the individual dogs so bred. Of course those dogs are nice individuals -- pretty much all dogs are nice. The breeders (and the organization that fosters them) ARE the target. The message is that their ideal is wrong -- that's not what a border collie breeder should be striving to produce, and the result they're producing should not properly be called a border collie.

 

The intent is certainly not to shame Ness's owner, and I detect no sign of shame on his/her part. In fact I love this person, whoever s/he is, because so many show BC owners over here would be claiming their dog was a brilliant herding dog on the strength of that photo with sheep. Good for you, ness bc! Nor is the intent to cold-shoulder people with show dogs off the Boards. A lot of our most valued members fall into this category. Many people have bought show-bred dogs because they didn't know that much about the breed when they first bought them. I hope this is a place where they can learn why border collies should not be bred for show, and I think sometimes the Boards do serve this purpose.

 

>

 

This IS outreach, as far as I'm concerned. It's uncompromising outreach, as IMO it needs to be. Some posters will post things that are not as nuanced as I would like, one way or the other, but that's the nature of any collection of people expressing their opinions. Nevertheless, it IS outreach, and sometimes it works. As for YouTube, it might be a great outreach opportunity too, for all I know, but I don't really know who uses it or how it's used or how it would reach people, so I'll have to leave that to the young folks.

 

BTW, I wouldn't presume to try to make any statement about the situation in Australia, because I just plain don't know enough to do so. What I say on the subject of Barbie Collies is confined to the situation in the US. Heck, I too have heard over and over again from Australians that there aren't really any working border collies in Australia. I have always suspected that's because border collies in Australia have become so thoroughly identified with the show dogs of that name in the public's mind that they reject the idea that the working dogs they've seen could possibly be border collies. But I don't know for sure. All I know is that I don't want to see us reach that point in the US, and tolerance for the AKC definition of the border collie is what will push us there.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

the Show BC crowd may lose all interest in recognising working dogs as "purebred", and you'll get the situation we have here, where they almost seem to have a vested interest in publicising their own lines as "the real purebred BC", and even denigrating the working dogs as "mutts".

And there you have it. This attitude is already out there. "Real BCs have a title on both ends!"

 

Why would we care? Because the AKC has the ear and eye of the public. If most people think the show BC represents the ideal, that breeding will inevitably work backwards into the gene pool. This will harm working breeders in several ways:

 

Reducing the variety available in the breed. Anyone want to hunt with a Golden Retriever? Or an Irish Setter?

 

Farmers will get dogs from people with "titles on both ends!", get disgusted, and either reject the breed, or worse, reject the idea of using dogs on livestock altogether. Once upon a time, a farmer could purchase a pup and with just a few tips from the breeder, or maybe none at all, start the pup himself and the pup would be useful by his first birthday. This is the backbone of our breed and is undermined every time a farmer tries a dog and crashes and burns.

 

Puppy buyers seek out the breeders of dogs with "titles on both ends!" believing that is the ideal. Yes, even the best breeders need a market for their puppies and not every pup can go to a top-notch working home. There just aren't enough of those out there to support a wide gene pool. So we need the pet homes, the sport homes, the hobby herders, the service dog homes.

 

ASCA has done a pretty good job in this department, though of course they have their own conformation program. They have done very good work promoting their registry as the source for all things Aussie. Quick! What's the AKC parent club for the Aussie? We need to move on these lines, and FAST.

[mjk05]

I have always suspected that's because border collies in Australia have become so thoroughly identified with the show dogs of that name in the public's mind that they reject the idea that the working dogs they've seen could possibly be border collies.

I think that's exactly the situation.

 

We have 12 working border collies, with pedigrees ranging from pure Australian (working) breeding to a variety of English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish imported dogs, very recent and decades old. They work (my bloke and his dogs had 40 thousand sheep to muster/drench/backline this week) and trial. I know they exist. If anyone wants more info on our dogs or Australian working border collies, feel free to PM me (Australians or those overseas). I have thousands of photos, and can get hold of a similar number of pedigrees.

 

All I know is that I don't want to see us reach that point in the US, and tolerance for the AKC definition of the border collie is what will push us there.

I don't know what got us here- its certainly not due to lack of numbers. Probably the very early importation of working collies, and the lack of a dedicated breed registry from the start, combined with the complete split between working and show dogs.

 

Please excuse me if I'm boring you all, but I imagine you'd all be similarly blown away to read on an Australian board that there were almost no working border collies left in the US.

 

Off to bed...

[Kyrasmom]

Well, it is kind of mocking them when photos are seeked out to insult and or critique a specific look and obviously a specific dog is picked. And then to add insult to injury, people get their panties in a twist when said owner shows up to defend their dog who is being used as an example to ridicule.

 

When you're not supposed to judge anything based on looks, how is it fair to judge a photo?

 

And I would feel the same way if the situation were reversed and show people were mocking a working dog. It's a waste of time in my opinion.

 

What should and can be judged (mocked if needed) is the contect of a website, the purpose and goals of a breeding program, the intent of the owner of said dog.

 

Personally I think people are fair game and the dogs are not.

 

Maria

[borderlicious]

Here's my contribution, so miss Ness won't feel alone. This is Dakota, Fluffbutt extraordinaire: never been on sheep, amazing at goose control, my first real agility dog, an AAT dog in training, a regular visitor at the local nursing home, my protector and my best friend. I owe him my life and then some, and I'd be the luckiest girl on earth if I ever have another dog like him.

 

 

 

I don't agree with breeding Border Collies for anything but working ability (Dakota was bred for sport. agility.) but I don't feel comfortable mocking dogs I've never met because of their breeding. What good is that going to do? I personally would rather have someone mock ME for buying a dog without heaps of research, than have a go at my dog.

 

I guess I really have no place in this thread. It's hard to not take it personally. I know it isn't the OP's (or the board's) intent to slam the dogs, but I get the distinct impression that these existing dogs are not welcome.

 

 

Grace

[border_collie_crazy]

 

hey Lance is related to Happy! lol Critter here is her grandsire

 

pssst Critter is a show champion reg name "Ch Shorlands Critter Getter"

[kelpiegirl]

The term "pretty is as pretty does" applies here

If your dog, Grace, is a kick butt goose dog, she does pretty well I'd say. If someone else's dog is a kick butt wording (working/herding) dog, same applies. If your dog is a kick butt companion, same hold true.

Basically, the only opinion that matters is yours.

Any others are "fluff" in your life!

Julie

[SoloRiver]

If anyone wants more info on our dogs or Australian working border collies, feel free to PM me (Australians or those overseas). I have thousands of photos, and can get hold of a similar number of pedigrees.

 

Can you get a hold of owners willing to submit pedigrees and DNA samples? I'm trying to expand our Border Collie sample at the Canine Behavioral Genetics Project to include Australasian dogs (both working and show bred). I've gotten a couple of interesting Australian dogs with pedigrees that look like they are all working dogs, but no names I recognize and going back five or six generations with no imported dogs. I'm interested in within-breed population structure so these dogs are fascinating to me.

[SoloRiver]

What I've found here in the states is that people who have been doing agility for any length of time generally do not want a show BC, at least not a show BC through and through. Someone truly interested in agility wants a dog built for speed and agility.

 

It seems like the people who consider themselves very serious about agility are buying dogs that were bred specifically for agility (what I call Sport Collies). These dogs might be racier but they are no closer to being real Border Collies than the show dogs are in my opinion -- at least not after several generations of sport breeding. Most of the ones I've seen can't work stock for beans. They'll be really interested, but only in a predatory way -- all of the Border Collies I've seen that looked like they would actually be dangerous to sheep were bred for agility or for flyball.

 

I think it's because people who breed for sports specifically tend to select for DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE without selecting for impulse control (which selection for stock work necessarily includes) or the ability to keep the brain turned on while worked up.

 

Sports people do tend to be drawn to the more unusual colors.

 

Oh yes, the candy-colored fashion collies. Solo was always VERY popular at agility trials because of his color.

 

The idea of breeding for, or wanting a dog bred specifically for, agillity just really confuses me. Why go for the lowest common denominator? Why not get a dog that was meant to be everything a Border Collie should be, which in and of itself includes the makings of the ultimate sports dog?

 

I think the Sport Collies are just as, if not even more so, dangerous to the future of the breed as the Barbie Collies are.