What should I expect to see in a 7-week-old dog?

[juliepoudrier]

I wouldn't expect any young pup to show sustained interest in anything. At 7 weeks, they have no attention span. The OP never stated how much interest or for how long a pup showed, or what he expected.

Actually, he stated that the pups showed no more than a few seconds' interest. And then he compared that to his deceased GSD whose favorite game was to play with a towel and would do so for as long as the human would play the game (see the post Gloria quoted at the top of this page), the implication being that he expected the border collie pups to show that same interest.

 

He also stated that if the pup he chose didn't want to chase a ball or frisbee then he was in trouble because otherwise he wouldn't have a way to exercise the dog. Again, it seems pretty clear from the comments made thus far in this thread that he really wants some way to tell that the pup he chooses will definitely be willing to catch a frisbee or chase a ball. When I questioned him on what he'd do if he ended up without such a dog, he stated that he would look into something else and was really only interested in frisbee because it didn't take a lot of equipment or money to get involved.

 

So from the sum of the posts, I get the idea that he's looking for a way to ensure that the pup he gets will turn into the type of dog he wants. I personally think that with a well-bred working border collie, one ought to be able to shape a lot of that from puppyhood. But I also KNOW that there are no guarantees and no fool-proof tests, which is what I've said repeatedly, and that if one wants a guarantee of a dog that loves frisbee or ball, then it might make sense to get an adolescent in rescue that is already proven to love frisbee and ball.

 

In other words, all the discussion about prey drive notwithstanding, I'm still not quite seeing how one can decide that a pup will or will not be an excellent ball or frisbee dog. I suppose I encouraged fetching in my dogs, and all of them do fetch, but I never considered what I'd do if I had one who absolutely did not want to play that particular game. And only one really, really had aptitude for frisbee (but then again, when I realized the risk of injury involved, I didn't actually encourage frisbee games with my younger dogs).

 

So from my POV Im having a hard time understanding, given that we all agree that a well-bred working pup should have "drive," why anyone would believe there's some way to test a little puppy for aptitude at a particular sport. Take your own puppy. You chose carefully and presumably you're raising her carefully, but I'd be willing to bet you understand that she while she could be your next agility star she might also not be. And honestly, I think an aptitude for frisbee is a more nebulous thing than an aptitude for agility.

 

J.

[roscoe11]

Can a dog have drive with out prey drive?

 

Read the article the Rave posted. It was very good.

 

I would rather have I high prey drive dog. I think it would be easier to control a high prey drive dog then to try stimulate a dog with low drive.

 

I am reading the book Control Unleashed. It seems to have a lot of good ideas in it.

 

Saying that, I am use to a high prey drive dog and I do not have cats or children living in the house.

[Maralynn]

Can a dog have drive with out prey drive?

 

I would be the one who wouldnt want a pup trying to kill a towel at such a young age. For me too high of a prey drive is a liability for a pet home. I dont know if s/he mention but would it be her 1st border collie?

 

Border Collies come with prey drive. If one doesn't want it/doesn't know how to deal with it, one shouldn't get a Border Collie.

[roscoe11]

Actually, he stated that the pups showed no more than a few seconds' interest. And then he compared that to his deceased GSD whose favorite game was to play with a towel and would do so for as long as the human would play the game (see the post Gloria quoted at the top of this page), the implication being that he expected the border collie pups to show that same interest

J.

 

This post is: what can I expect from a 7-week-old BC!! I do not know what to expect. The only comparison I have was with my GSD. I have no idea if this was a fare comparison or not. I was trying to get an idea what is normal for a BC pup from people that have been around lots of BC pups at this age. Maybe signs of prey drive develop later in BC. How do I know? This is why i am asking! I have no idea; I am trying to find out. And yes I know puppy tests are not cast in stone, but MAYBE suggest a dogs potential.

 

All I know is that it was spot on with my DSG .

[Rave]

Roscoe, in all honesty, it sounds like you need a medium-drive dog, especially if this is your first BC. BC's are unlike any other breed out there. High drive BC's are NOT an easy dog to live with. Are you really prepared to handle a dog who can be non-stop GO-GO-GO 24/7? You may think that's what you want, but from someone who lives with dogs like these, it is NOT easy. Especially when they get injured (and they will because they're like kamikaze freight trains on crack) and you are forced to lived with a bottled tornado ready to explode at any minute from lack of exercise. I can take my dogs running off-leash, racing back and forth at top speed for about 3 miles (my distance, they cover much more), then take them swimming until they're completely water-logged, then go do a flyball demo (more top-speed running), then work on some mental training, then come home and let them run around the yard playing with each other (or play frisbee/ball) on and off the rest of the night, with some more training thrown in around dinner time. Then still have them wrestling and playing at bed-time, but they've outplayed all the other dogs, so I have to crate them so the rest of us can sleep. I once devoted an entire day to wearing one of mine out to the point where she took a brief nap. *ONCE* in her 9 years and it took all day. Of course if I had access to stock, it might have happened more than once. ;-) Are you sure that is what you want?

 

I strongly urge you go meet some young adult or pup rescues and interact and play with them. See if you can find what you want there. Then you can test their drive in many different ways.

 

I leave you with this saying that I've found oh so true over the years: Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

[Shetlander]

I would be the one who wouldnt want a pup trying to kill a towel at such a young age. For me too high of a prey drive is a liability for a pet home. I dont know if s/he mention but would it be her 1st border collie?

 

One of the earliest photos I have of Quinn is him tugging fiercely on a little girl's shirt. He was about 5 weeks old at the time. By 7 weeks, he fetched small toys or wadded up paper, though often only once or twice before moving on to some other exciting activity. His intense love of play was one of the things I wanted to see for my first Border Collie and fourth agility dog. As it turned out, I dropped out of dog sports before Quinn turned two but he was a blast to train and is a ton of fun as a companion dog only. He was a bit of a wild ride until he turned 6 months, then became incredibly easy to live with. Of course, I put a lot of time and energy into helping him become easy to live with, but it was worth it

[SS Cressa]

Will read the link when I have time.

 

When you say prey drive I was thinking dog who is VERY reactive to movement and nips.

[roscoe11]

Roscoe, in all honesty, it sounds like you need a medium-drive dog, especially if this is your first BC. BC's are unlike any other breed out there.

 

Thanks for the warning and maybe I do need a medium-drive dog. I just don't know.

 

I think most BC people assume that a GSD does not have the drive as a BC and if all they have seen are AKC German Shepherds they are right. My German Shepherd Dog's lineage was all German. This is a completely different dog. I have not seen an American German Shepherd that had the drive to compete in Schutzhund competitions. It's not just drive it's also how a dog can control their drive. They have to be in very high Prey Drive or Defense Drive one minute and then not the next. If they bite when they are not supposed to they are disqualified. This is the quality of a German German Shepherd that an AKC German Shepherd usually does not have.

 

I have only been hanging out with the Frisbee people (so my research maybe skewed), but only the top dogs out there have the same drive and focus as my German Shepherd. To tell you the truth I am a little nervous about ending up with a dog that is just bouncing off the walls. People have told me on this list that a good herding dog has an "off switch" because the dogs can't be out of control around sheep. That a good breeder will breed for this trait. This is why I have only been looking at breeders that breed stock dogs.

[Gloria Atwater]

Maralynn and Rave, thank your for your responses. I agree with you both, really. I think it's mainly a matter of semantics: the use of "prey drive," which I suspect we're not seeing in the same light. Of course "drive" is essential for any dog activity, whether running a trial course or chasing a frisbee. And I do tend to think of the border collie's "drive," or working instinct, as an abbreviated/abridged hunting behavior.

 

But when people say prey drive, I tend to think of something more raw and specific than just a dog's willingness to do. IMHO, prey drive is chasing and snapping up a chipmunk. Prey drive is chasing a rope toy and shaking it like a crazy thing. Prey drive is chasing down the bad guy and tackling him to the ground, and holding him until his brother (human) officers arrive to take the dude into custody. But even if sheep herding is an abbreviated form of the hunt, I guess I don't think of the border collie's working instinct as prey drive. It's been shaped for too many hundreds of generations to be as simple as that - or so it seems to me. But perhaps I'm all wet, and you guys have it right.

 

So, it's just different perceptions of a phrase, here. But I was concerned that Roscoe wanted a BC to act like his GSD, and they are entirely different dogs.

Best regards,

 

Gloria

[roscoe11]

One of the earliest photos I have of Quinn is him tugging fiercely on a little girl's shirt. He was about 5 weeks old at the time. By 7 weeks, he fetched small toys or wadded up paper, though often only once or twice before moving on to some other exciting activity. His intense love of play was one of the things I wanted to see for my first Border Collie and fourth agility dog. As it turned out, I dropped out of dog sports before Quinn turned two but he was a blast to train and is a ton of fun as a companion dog only. He was a bit of a wild ride until he turned 6 months, then became incredibly easy to live with. Of course, I put a lot of time and energy into helping him become easy to live with, but it was worth it

 

 

That is awesome. That is exactly what i am looking for. It sounds like you have a great dog. thanks

[Maralynn]

Thanks for the warning and maybe I do need a medium-drive dog. I just don't know.

 

I think most BC people assume that a GSD does not have the drive as a BC and if all they have seen are AKC German Shepherds they are right. My German Shepherd Dog's lineage was all German. This is a completely different dog. I have not seen an American German Shepherd that had the drive to compete in Schutzhund competitions. It's not just drive it's also how a dog can control their drive. They have to be in very high Prey Drive or Defense Drive one minute and then not the next. If they bite when they are not supposed to they are disqualified. This is the quality of a German German Shepherd that an AKC German Shepherd usually does not have.

 

I have only been hanging out with the Frisbee people (so my research maybe skewed), but only the top dogs out there have the same drive and focus as my German Shepherd. To tell you the truth I am a little nervous about ending up with a dog that is just bouncing off the walls. People have told me on this list that a good herding dog has an "off switch" because the dogs can't be out of control around sheep. That a good breeder will breed for this trait. This is why I have only been looking at breeders that breed stock dogs.

 

IMO, there are many similarities between working line shepherds and working Border Collies in the area of drive, work ethic and stability. They want to work, they need to work. Differences I've noticed are that Border Collies to tend to be more athletic, faster, and softer in nature. They have a strong desire to work with a person (similar to a WL GSD, but more so) and tend to learn a bit faster, both bad and good. They can take a fair correction, but not a strong handed one.

 

If you've had a WL GSD, you can handle a BC. Just realize that training for a BC is a balance between using drive and self control, physical exercise and mental exercise. And quite posibly the dog will learn faster than you ever thought possbile - just for the sake of learning.

[roscoe11]

 

So, it's just different perceptions of a phrase, here. But I was concerned that Roscoe wanted a BC to act like his GSD, and they are entirely different dogs.

Best regards,

 

Gloria

 

I have heard of border collies doing Schutzhund but I have not seen it. My guess is that they have the Defense Drive for it. if they can stand there ground with a cow or ram they have the right drive.

 

No! i want a dog that acts like a Border Collie. If i wanted another GSD I would get one, but I think it would just brake my hart.

[Gloria Atwater]

This post is: what can I expect from a 7-week-old BC!! I do not know what to expect. The only comparison I have was with my GSD. I have no idea if this was a fare comparison or not. I was trying to get an idea what is normal for a BC pup from people that have been around lots of BC pups at this age. Maybe signs of prey drive develop later in BC. How do I know? This is why i am asking! I have no idea; I am trying to find out. And yes I know puppy tests are not cast in stone, but MAYBE suggest a dogs potential.

 

All I know is that it was spot on with my DSG .

 

 

Roscoe, please do read Rave's post closely. A high drive border collie is different from a GSD, even your good German lines. What I think you should do is what Rave said: go to some events, meet as many adult border collies as you can, and get a feel for them. Talk to the owners. Watch the dogs in play and in action. Understand what sort of dog you're getting into. The thing with a BC is not just that they're physically active, but they are mentally very active. A bored collie is apt to be a destructive border collie.

 

I'm not sure a 7 week old BC pup can tell you much about who he'll be when grown, unless you're very familiar with the breed and have seen a lot of pups. Clearly I'm not one of those. My boy, Nick, was a very sober and thoughtful puppy, but he's one hella high-drive working dog. His younger sister, Gael, I subsequently chose because she was the second most forward-seeming, assertive girl in that litter - and she turned out to be a busy little dervish who never. stops. moving. From the minute she came home, everything up to and including the bedroom carpet wound up in her mouth. I spent a lot of time reprimanding her and stuffing the correct chew-toys in those busy teeth. (And yes, she does have a crate!) She obsesses on one of the cats - only one of them - she rockets across the room or yard every time you reach for the door, and loves nothing more than to run asfastashecan. (This makes teaching her stops on sheep an ongoing process. ) She does have an "off" switch ... but when she's "on," I remind myself that she's only 2, and time will settle her down further.

 

If you get what you want, you have to be prepared for everything that comes along with it. And before you choose a pup, learn about the parents, see what they are like and what they do, and if possible, find out what any previous pups are like.

 

Border collies can be a lot of dog, and as you're coming from another breed, I think you should get to know the breed you're looking into, now, before you make any decisions or choices.

 

Best of luck,

 

Gloria

[Rave]

Thanks for the warning and maybe I do need a medium-drive dog. I just don't know.

 

I think most BC people assume that a GSD does not have the drive as a BC and if all they have seen are AKC German Shepherds they are right. My German Shepherd Dog's lineage was all German. This is a completely different dog. I have not seen an American German Shepherd that had the drive to compete in Schutzhund competitions. It's not just drive it's also how a dog can control their drive. They have to be in very high Prey Drive or Defense Drive one minute and then not the next. If they bite when they are not supposed to they are disqualified. This is the quality of a German German Shepherd that an AKC German Shepherd usually does not have.

 

I have only been hanging out with the Frisbee people (so my research maybe skewed), but only the top dogs out there have the same drive and focus as my German Shepherd. To tell you the truth I am a little nervous about ending up with a dog that is just bouncing off the walls. People have told me on this list that a good herding dog has an "off switch" because the dogs can't be out of control around sheep. That a good breeder will breed for this trait. This is why I have only been looking at breeders that breed stock dogs.

 

Roscoe, I know several nice GSD's and some very-high drive ones. The working, German-type, not the wreck that the ACK has created. If you've lived with a high drive GSD, I think you could do well with a BC. Some BC's do have an off switch, some do not. Pretty much none do if they don't have a regular outlet for their mental and physical needs. There's no way I know to predict this, other than possibly if the parents had this trait. Part of it is training too though.

 

Most of the working BC breeders are breeding for working ability, not for an off switch. Of course having a dog they could live with (one for example that has an off switch) would be another secondary factor to consider, but it's not the primary one. Some even keep their dogs in barns, so even less of a factor for them I would imagine. But I'm not a breeder, so can only go off what I've personally seen and read here. I'm sure others here could better explain what priority an off switch has in their breeding program, but that's a whole other topic.

[Rave]

IMO, there are many similarities between working line shepherds and working Border Collies in the area of drive, work ethic and stability. They want to work, they need to work. Differences I've noticed are that Border Collies to tend to be more athletic, faster, and softer in nature. They have a strong desire to work with a person (similar to a WL GSD, but more so) and tend to learn a bit faster, both bad and good. They can take a fair correction, but not a strong handed one.

 

If you've had a WL GSD, you can handle a BC. Just realize that training for a BC is a balance between using drive and self control, physical exercise and mental exercise. And quite posibly the dog will learn faster than you ever thought possbile - just for the sake of learning.

 

Perfectly stated. Very important part about the softness of BC's.

 

BC's can be a bit OCD and develop quirky (and sometimes dangerous) behaviors. I tell people if BC's do it once "unchecked", it can become a habit. You have to be comfortable with and know how to handle a dog who may be smarter than you. ;-)

 

Something else to consider, contact your local rescue and ask to volunteer as a foster home. There is no better way to learn about BC's before jumping in to getting one.

[Rave]

So I searched around your other posts and saw you lived in Atlanta Roscoe. I also searched some nearby rescues and found a couple possibilities in just a couple minutes.

 

"Sammie absolutely loves frisbee and would love to be in a home where she could do that!"

http://www.bordercollierescuetn.com/adopt_sammie_711.php

 

"Cairo is a high energy, athletic young Border Collie. He would make an excellent herding, agility, frisbee or flyball dog."

http://www.bordercollierescuetn.com/adoptables1.php

 

List of rescues by area:

http://www.bordercollierescuetn.com/links.php#rescue

 

I saw a friend of mine listed for GA. I can ask her if she knows of a dog who might suit you, if you want to consider rescue, just let me know.

[roscoe11]

So I searched around your other posts and saw you lived in Atlanta Roscoe. I also searched some nearby rescues and found a couple possibilities in just a couple minutes.

 

"Sammie absolutely loves frisbee and would love to be in a home where she could do that!"

http://www.bordercollierescuetn.com/adopt_sammie_711.php

 

"Cairo is a high energy, athletic young Border Collie. He would make an excellent herding, agility, frisbee or flyball dog."

http://www.bordercollierescuetn.com/adoptables1.php

 

List of rescues by area:

http://www.bordercollierescuetn.com/links.php#rescue

 

I saw a friend of mine listed for GA. I can ask her if she knows of a dog who might suit you, if you want to consider rescue, just let me know.

 

 

Thank you vary much. I have been keeping my eye in the rescues. There are two in my area that have promise. I hope to be able to see them this week. It's amazing how slow the process is. i have been trying to set up a time to see one since last week.

 

Also i would like to get a puppy. Like you said

"BC's can be a bit OCD and develop quirky (and sometimes dangerous) behaviors. I tell people if BC's do it once "unchecked", it can become a habit".

 

If I get a puppy I know it's history, but i am open to a rescues.

[roscoe11]

I think one of the reasons that I am interested in Border Collies is that they are similar to GSDs in many ways, but they are not 100 pounds and they don't remind me of my old dog every time I look at them.

 

Thanks everyone for your help. This has been an interesting conversation

[juliepoudrier]

I just want to note that working-bred border collies don't come with an off-switch per se, but they have the temperament that allows an off switch to be trained. There's a difference there. Often what you put into a border collie is what you'll get back out, for better or worse. If you allow your youngster to be hyperactive and never settle, then you'll end up with a hyperactive dog that never settles. If while raising your pup, you exercise it for 5 hours a day, then you better expect that as an adult it's going to require 5 hours or more a day of exercise.

 

My dogs are working bred. They can work all day as needed (for example, I spent three long days setting sheep with just one of the dogs at a trial with sheep that were not easy to work and in temps of upper 80s and low 90s and my dog was perfectly capable of doing that without a hitch and could have continued probably indefinitely). But when I'm home working on the computer they all lay about the house. They don't pester me to go play, nor do they harrass the cats or do any other thing that's annoying. They lie around and sleep.

 

But they weren't born that way (aside from the breedings being expected to produce working dogs with stable temperaments); they were taught to be that way. If I get up from my desk right now and grab a ball or decide to go running on trails through the woods, they'd all be willing to go full speed ahead. But when I'm doing something else, they know perfectly well how to be quiet. That's what is meant by an off switch.

 

ETA: Rave makes an important point when she says that they can learn good habits as easily as bad. And something they learn to do that might seem cute in a pup might not be so cute in an adult, so you must always keep in mind what your border collie might be learning inadvertently as you go through your daily life.

 

Also, Rave asked about off switches and breeding. I don't think most breeders think in terms of an off switch, TBH. But I do think the breed as a whole (talking the working bred dogs here) have fairly stable temperaments that make them amenable to having an off switch trained in them. Some dogs live in a barn, but you can take that same dog, sell it to someone who wants it to live in a house and the dog will generally adjust pretty quickly. Dogs are sold from handler to handler fairly often. It takes a pretty stable temperament to be able to deal with such changes and still continue on with a high level of work. So I think that the abilty to have an off switch easily trained is an artifact of a breeding selection process that chooses dogs who are capable of coping with change, and perhaps a lot of change or changes that happen often, with equanimity. JMO.

 

J.

[Rave]

Thank you vary much. I have been keeping my eye in the rescues. There are two in my area that have promise. I hope to be able to see them this week. It's amazing how slow the process is. i have been trying to set up a time to see one since last week.

 

Also i would like to get a puppy. Like you said

"BC's can be a bit OCD and develop quirky (and sometimes dangerous) behaviors. I tell people if BC's do it once "unchecked", it can become a habit".

 

If I get a puppy I know it's history, but i am open to a rescues.

 

 

True, but that is why you go meet the dog and talk with its fosterer. They will be able to tell you anything about the dog's behavior and you can also see it for yourself.

 

Keep in mind rescuers are all volunteers. Most have regular 40-hour week jobs and rescue in their spare time and have way more work than people to do it. So yeah the process may be slow but is a rewarding one in the end.

[PSmitty]

So I searched around your other posts and saw you lived in Atlanta Roscoe. I also searched some nearby rescues and found a couple possibilities in just a couple minutes.

 

"Sammie absolutely loves frisbee and would love to be in a home where she could do that!"

http://www.bordercollierescuetn.com/adopt_sammie_711.php

 

Sammie=

 

[SecretBC]

If all you want is toy drive, I don't think you need to stress so much. It's not that hard to get a dog to play with the toys you want them to -- It might take TIME, but it's fairly simple.

 

Secret is not what BC people would consider high drive. I know I don't consider her drivey. I got her from rescue around four months old. I did get to meet her mom (she was dumped at a shelter with the puppies, so they all came into rescue together) and should have known better -- I say "known better" because I *wanted* a crazy, high drive dog. Mom was pretty quiet & mellow. Mom didn't play with toys.

 

Neither did *any* of the puppies. I'm in regular contact with the woman who adopted Secret's brother and she has had very similar struggles to mine in the toy/drive department.

 

Long story short, Secret now goes absolutely frothing bonkers for the frisbee and tennis ball. I built up her tug & toy drive to the point where I now use it (instead of food) as reward in her agility training. Doing so increased her speed, although she's not likely to ever be one of those blazing fast dogs with World Team speed.

 

The flip side is that I have a friend who DOES have a blazing fast bc with "World Team" speed. She won't even look at a frisbee and doesn't really give a rip about balls. He doesn't care about those things, so he never really introduced them to her.

 

Your dog will value what you teach them to value.

 

I have experience with GSD -- They are *nothing* like border collies. The energy is so very different between the two breeds. That is not to say the OP wouldn't enjoy a BC, but they are not comparable really in any way to the GSD.

[brady's mom]

I want Sammie so bad, omg. <3

[rushdoggie]

Sammie=

 

 

zomg, that FACE! I <3 Sammie too!

[roscoe11]

This is a good article about building prey drive in dogs. It suggests using a towel or some other object that can be whipped around to start building prey drive in a pup.

 

http://www.thedogathlete.com/playing-with-prey-drive/