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What should I expect to see in a 7-week-old dog?


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Thanks for the warning and maybe I do need a medium-drive dog. I just don't know.

 

I think most BC people assume that a GSD does not have the drive as a BC and if all they have seen are AKC German Shepherds they are right. My German Shepherd Dog's lineage was all German. This is a completely different dog. I have not seen an American German Shepherd that had the drive to compete in Schutzhund competitions. It's not just drive it's also how a dog can control their drive. They have to be in very high Prey Drive or Defense Drive one minute and then not the next. If they bite when they are not supposed to they are disqualified. This is the quality of a German German Shepherd that an AKC German Shepherd usually does not have.

 

 

I would consider my BC medium drive as far as BCs go. My dog's "best friend" right now is a German-bred, all German, imported GSD. The guy who owns this GSD works in the same office complex as me and we both bring our dogs in frequently. So we have about 2 playdates a week or more with Abby the GSD. She is younger than my dog Odin and is really still somewhat of a puppy at 2 years. She is considered a high drive dog by her owner and I guess he would know as this is not the first German-bred GSD he's had (I think the 3rd). He does not do Schutzhund but he does nose-work which also requires prey drive.

 

My observations are that STILL my medium drive border collie has more prey drive than this GSD. Odin the BC also has better impulse control, so it is not just a case of the "Border Crazies"**. Abby the GSD is no slouch for sure and I would not be unhappy with her level of drive if I had gotten her instead. But basically, her "unharnessed" prey drive seems to manifest as fixation on other dogs. She charges running dogs, stalks them, slinks around like a cat, etc. My BC's "unharnessed" prey drive tends to manifest as a desire to chase squirrels, which he only does when released to do so.

 

What do I mean by "unharnessed?" Well, both of us "harness" the prey drive our dogs have for training, and particularly use toy drive. Both dogs have very high toy drive and toys are an effective means of both motivating and rewarding both. Abby the GSD's toy drive is used for nose work and my underastanding is she is at the top of her class. Odin the BC has learned basically every and command he knows (off sheep) using toys. Between the two dogs, it is VERY clear that Odin's toy drive is much higher than Abby's even though I have not put much work into building it. In fact, it verges a bit on "obsessive" which IME is not uncommon with pet BCs that are not from conformation lines. Obviously Odin's prey drive is quite useful when we train stock work too.

 

In general, Odin is more "drivey" than Abby. But the main difference I see between the two of them in terms of something that would affect future training is that Odin is a lot more biddable, because both of them have as much drive as the typical pet person is ever going to need. Abby just does not seem to care as much about pleasing her owner, although she does care and IS trainable. But it's more like if I yell "jump" at both of them (asuming neither one already knew this command), my BC will start trying to figure out what I mean immediately. He will literally turn himself inside out trying to give me the right behavior, offering behaviors, and always looking for any little gesture I might intentionally or unintentionally be giving that could give him a clue as to what I want him to do. Abby is a lot more like my previous dog, who was a very smart husky. If you yell "jump" at Abby, she basically stares at you blankly and then dismisses you because clearly that isn't a real command (we tried this once). If you let her know that NOW we are training, she is willing to work with you. If you issue a command (and are serious), she will mostly comply. If she gets too hot or tired though, she basically checks out (this could also be due to her training?). If she "thinks" that a recall isn't ACTUALLY required and is more of a "test" from her owner, she will decline. Odin though, he is ALWAYS trying to figure out what I want. ALL the time. And if he gets too hot or tired, *I* have to be super careful, because he will literally go-go-go until he has heat stroke if I keep asking things of him. He naps during the day because he does have an off switch, but all you have to do is *hint* that you might want to do something. And he is THERE before you even realize it.

 

Now, I'm not saying this across the board makes him EASY to train. He picks up a lot of stuff that I don't intend to train, too. Mostly I don't care about that but I imagine in a dog sport setting getting a consistent response to the cues is a bigger deal than me just training him to balnace something on his nose while spinning around or whatever. It HAS been an issue with our sheep training because he tries SO hard to figure out what I want and I am not good enough to always (or even usually!) give off the right cues.

 

Sorry for the long rambly post, but just saying IME even a mid-drive BC is likely to be as much or even more prey drive than you are used to, even with German-bred GSDs.

 

**I hate this term. Have any of you heard it? Usually this comes up in a situation where MY dog is behaving fine and the other dog is acting like a lunatic. :rolleyes:

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....And, I should have realized there would be a much better description than this on the 4th page. :) Maralynn sums it up very nicely.

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Just thought I'd note that my nearly 8-week-old border collie found a hand towel on the floor in the dog room (where I'd left it to soak up water spilled from a crate pail), and was racing around the house with it this morning trying to kill it and wanting someone to play tug. No encouragement from me needed, lol!

 

J.

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Just thought I'd note that my nearly 8-week-old border collie found a hand towel on the floor in the dog room (where I'd left it to soak up water spilled from a crate pail), and was racing around the house with it this morning trying to kill it and wanting someone to play tug. No encouragement from me needed, lol!

 

J.

:) I've had a few go astray as well when the boys were pups...I hung a really tough rope in the yard that they still play with spontaneously...especially Robin and Ladybug

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Just thought I'd note that my nearly 8-week-old border collie found a hand towel on the floor in the dog room (where I'd left it to soak up water spilled from a crate pail), and was racing around the house with it this morning trying to kill it and wanting someone to play tug. No encouragement from me needed, lol!

 

J.

 

Now that's what I am talking about.

 

A little pouncing on the towel, a little head shaking and wanting to play Tug of war. That sounds like a good puppy to me.

 

Thanks

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Just thought I'd note that my nearly 8-week-old border collie found a hand towel on the floor in the dog room (where I'd left it to soak up water spilled from a crate pail), and was racing around the house with it this morning trying to kill it and wanting someone to play tug. No encouragement from me needed, lol!

OK, that's it! That's at least the third reference to this new puppy. Where are the pictures?!?

 

ETA: Oh, never mind, I see you posted some. Thanks! Great name too!

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Here's another prey drive photo for you (also posted in the gallery). The cat toy no longer has any feathers on it, surprise. It's attached to the back of the rocking chair, but fortunately she hasn't managed to pull it over yet. Kestrel likes the toy way better than the cats ever did....

 

IMG_0592_edited-1.jpg

 

Oh, and thanks to Ranger she thinks pine cones make fine toys.

 

J.

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Now that's what I am talking about.

 

A little pouncing on the towel, a little head shaking and wanting to play Tug of war. That sounds like a good puppy to me.

 

Thanks

 

Don't all puppies do this???

 

ETA -- every dog I've owned has been willing to tug or grab something and run with it to play -- either with me or with each other...sometimes I've considered it misbehavior when it was something I valued :)

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Don't all puppies do this???

 

ETA -- every dog I've owned has been willing to tug or grab something and run with it to play -- either with me or with each other...sometimes I've considered it misbehavior when it was something I valued :)

 

I started this thread out saying that I had gone to see some 7 week old BC pups and was surprised that they did not seem to have much prey drive (there was not much interest in chasing a towel for example).

 

I asked what one should expect to see in a BC pup at this age in regards to prey drive. I asked, from your observation does a 7 week BC like to pounce on a towel, shake his head with the towel in his mouth and want to play Tug of war or does this drive seem to develop later in BC pups. The reason I was asking was because the only thing I have to compare it to was my GSD, and from what I could remember (it was 12 years ago) my GSD showed a much more developed prey drive at 7 weeks then the few BC pups I had seen. Again this surprised me and I was trying to find out if this was normal.

 

If all goes well I will be selecting my pup from the litter in 5 weeks. I was trying to get a baseline understanding on what to expect from a 7 week old CD pup concerning their prey drive at that age. It seemed like a reasonable question, some people apparently did not think so.

 

Anyway I am particularly interested in peoples observations that have noted how developed their 7 week old BC pups prey drive was and can compared this observation to how there adult dog turned out. I know it's a generalization and an anecdotal observation but it's the best I have right now.

 

Thanks

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Anyway I am particularly interested in peoples observations that have noted how developed their 7 week old BC pups prey drive was and can compared this observation to how there adult dog turned out. I know it's a generalization and an anecdotal observation but it's the best I have right now.

 

Thanks

 

My BC showed literally no prey drive when I met him as a pup at the breeder's. It did not even show up on my radar of things I needed to consider so that didn't worry me. I wanted a great companion that would work well with my personality and not be too much dog for me, first and foremost. Of the puppies I chose from, Odin showed no interest in playing with a soccer ball and tug toy that the rest of the pups and a couple of the older dogs, including the dam, were playing with. Instead, I chose him because he was the quiet sweet one that let his littermates inspect my DH and I first, but then when they all went rambling off to do other things, Odin came up and actually spent time with my DH and I, and seemed to really really enjoy the attention we were giving him.

 

When I first took him home I actually tried to play with him, although not specifically with a towel or anything, but I bought a kong wubba I think...for a day or two he showed no interest and mainly stayed very close to me and was super quiet. Then he got used to our house I guess and within a few days was starting to become the crazy fun happy dog I know today.

 

Oh, and I showed him fetch like ONCE, and then he went nuts over that and the rest is history. Within the first week of being home he wanted to fetch and tug and tackle and "kill" random objects on the floor (in a cute puppy play way, not a psycho way) and was even stalking the cats, so although I didn't see any prey drive for the first couple of days, it was just because I didn't see it! It was there all along and became totally apparent as he felt more comfortable AND as I got to know him better. And I described his adult drive level to you in a previous post. I'm not saying my dog would be a guaranteed sport dog champion or anything, but it certainly would not be his prey drive level that would ever be the limiting factor.

 

Honestly, the pups you saw may be weird in some way (I don't know, I wasn't there and don't know anything about the breeder) but their apparant lack of interest in a towel after they had only met you for a few minutes would not be something that would worry me. *I* personally would wonder about the prey drive or toy drive of the sire and dam if that were something high on my list, that might tell you more.

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Sammie= :wub:

 

sammie1_711.jpg

 

wow--that is one cute dog!

 

I've been trying to think about the drive in the four 7 week old BC puppies I've been involved with--I honestly don't remember. What I remember is how blasted quick they were to learn and how short their attention spans were regardless of what they were doing. Plan to set up an X-pen or something or you'll be in for a merry ride for sure!

 

None of the puppies grew to have the qualities we'd guessed they'd have from their breeding and early personalities.

 

The two we bought from sports breedings have little of the ball or Frisbee drive that would have made them good at dog sports and indeed neither one took to flyball or agility or Frisbees. The three we have from working breedings are maniacs for both balls and Frisbees (even though we did nothing to foster that in any of them).

 

I don't think off switches are genetic--I think they are a trait that is pretty much entirely socialized (and they are totally worth socializing into a border collie right from the beginning). We have six border collies in the house and they are all "off" when we're not doing stuff with them. When I read what some folks here do with their dogs, I wonder if there are drugs in our water because ours don't get anywhere near the activity that's been described and yet they are remarkably calm.

 

Good luck with your search for a pup (but man, I'd snap up that Sammie dog in a heartbeat if I were looking for the kind of dog you describe in your posts.) I haven't raised any kind of puppy but Border Collies--but I'll say, I don't find them for the faint of heart--fun for sure, but not easy.

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Ooky thanks. It sounds like you have a wonderful dog. That is one of the characteristics I will be looking for in my pup, a pup that would rather hang with me then go run off with his littermates.

 

Both the dam and sire are herding dogs so I am not sure how much these dogs are encouraged to play. They are however very focus when it comes to sheep.

 

I have been reading a lot about developing drive in puppies and teaching them to play, so I am going to do what most people have suggested. I am going to pick the puppy with the personality traits I am looking for and be confident that the prey drive will come along.

 

Wish me luck.

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I don't think I've ever had a dog come through my house that didn't/couldn't/wouldn't show some version of "drive". Even Zippy, the papillon, who isn't very toy motivated turned out to be a big fan of tugging on socks. Go figure.

 

Pretty much like everyone else said: I would be surprised if a well bred border collie had no prey drive whatsoever - and even those with lower levels could be taught to have the levels of drive you're looking for. That being said, be careful what you ask for and be careful that you keep in mind that you need to balance this "drive" with self control and the ability to turn it all off when not in use. If you don't balance these things out you'll be REALLY sorry.

 

For my first border collie I'd probably be inclined to go on the lower end of this prey drive scale. :)

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I started this thread out saying that I had gone to see some 7 week old BC pups and was surprised that they did not seem to have much prey drive (there was not much interest in chasing a towel for example).

 

I asked what one should expect to see in a BC pup at this age in regards to prey drive. I asked, from your observation does a 7 week BC like to pounce on a towel, shake his head with the towel in his mouth and want to play Tug of war or does this drive seem to develop later in BC pups. The reason I was asking was because the only thing I have to compare it to was my GSD, and from what I could remember (it was 12 years ago) my GSD showed a much more developed prey drive at 7 weeks then the few BC pups I had seen. Again this surprised me and I was trying to find out if this was normal.

 

If all goes well I will be selecting my pup from the litter in 5 weeks. I was trying to get a baseline understanding on what to expect from a 7 week old CD pup concerning their prey drive at that age. It seemed like a reasonable question, some people apparently did not think so.

 

Anyway I am particularly interested in peoples observations that have noted how developed their 7 week old BC pups prey drive was and can compared this observation to how there adult dog turned out. I know it's a generalization and an anecdotal observation but it's the best I have right now.

 

Thanks

 

Okay. I suppose I never thought of this as prey drive...I met my pups the first time when they were about 3 days old -- as they grew, they became very playful at wakeful times so perhaps you caught your litter at a "down" time. Anything soft was quickly shredded so mostly chewy type toys and bones were provided, mostly for safety. They were attracted to things that made noise and things that moved quickly across their line of vision.

 

The pups came to me at about 8 weeks - in that first week I distinctly remember the pups discovering the cache of stuffed animals I had stored in a basket. I had been teaching a previous dog names of the animals. The pups, with a little help from Ladybug who can't abide to leave anything with a squeaker in it intact, tore them to bits in one gleeful evening while being supervised by my blissfully unaware husband. It looked like it had snowed in the TV room. It was the first of many hillarious puppy episodes....we'd never had puppies, my husband and I, though we had successfully raised a child :)

 

We've tried other so called "indestructible" toys over the first year....none of them lasted longer than fifteen minutes with any of the dogs. No more "stuffies" in our house. We have bones, we have rubber chew toys and nylon Frisbees that are put up on a high shelf when we are done playing, or they would be shredded too. We played tug a little -- with a rope.

 

We never played with towels. Towels are a grooming tool and are always for drying off with...and I've put towels in their crates with them -- they never touched or chewed them.

 

The pups are two and a half now...Robin really enjoys tug of war with a thick rope - a jolly ball comes with a rope threaded through it -- the rope lasts about a week. I never encouraged it -- he just likes it. It was useful for teaching "drop it" and "leave it." We hung a really thick tug rope outside from a pole and he'll go pounce on it and tug away on his own, as does Ladybug (12 years old). They grrrrr quite loudly... but they don't appear to be fighting with each other... Brodie, less so. He's very quiet when he tugs...he pounces at it. Ladybug and Robin pull as if they'd like to snap the rope.

 

Robin and Brodie are equally keen on sheep, though they do have different styles. Ladybug came to us as a rescue at 4 years old....she loves tug - it's her second favorite game (fetch being the first that's her "thing"). She's also a dedicated huntress -- mouses, bunnies, etc. She's not so sure of the sheep.

 

Liz

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If all goes well I will be selecting my pup from the litter in 5 weeks. I was trying to get a baseline understanding on what to expect from a 7 week old CD pup concerning their prey drive at that age. It seemed like a reasonable question, some people apparently did not think so.

 

Anyway I am particularly interested in peoples observations that have noted how developed their 7 week old BC pups prey drive was and can compared this observation to how there adult dog turned out. I know it's a generalization and an anecdotal observation but it's the best I have right now.

 

Thanks

 

Here is pic of my pup at just about 7 weeks old. It may not be clear but she was stalking the older dogs & they'd just trotted by when & took the pic (my cell phone camera is s-l-o-w).

 

IMAG0005-1-1.jpg

 

These pix were taken in the same time frame. She is showing sustained interest in playing with toys in the yard & the other dogs. She is 6 mos old now and is a ball fiend....I actually wanted to avoid having a ball crazy dog (she will work stock mostly)but she picked it up on her own. She has serious OCD tendencies but I expect she would give 100% at just about anything I asked of her.

 

IMAG0014-1.jpg

 

IMAG0012-1.jpg

 

IMAG0056.jpg

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I don't think I've ever had a dog come through my house that didn't/couldn't/wouldn't show some version of "drive". Even Zippy, the papillon, who isn't very toy motivated turned out to be a big fan of tugging on socks. Go figure.

 

Pretty much like everyone else said: I would be surprised if a well bred border collie had no prey drive whatsoever - and even those with lower levels could be taught to have the levels of drive you're looking for. That being said, be careful what you ask for and be careful that you keep in mind that you need to balance this "drive" with self control and the ability to turn it all off when not in use. If you don't balance these things out you'll be REALLY sorry.

 

For my first border collie I'd probably be inclined to go on the lower end of this prey drive scale. :)

 

I'm just picking up on the puppy play - and thinking back to what I observed from the boys behavior. For a time, the boys would run and chase, then about ten months, it got to be a problem. I can remember Ladybug the "Nanny" taking Robin aside a time or to and saying look it Bub, this is how we romp around, it's sometimes just fun and games.... But for Robin it's not play - it's work. He can't just romp. He'll run through the field for exercise and exploration beside Brodie, but he won't run and chase and "play tag" with him. It always ends in hard feelings, with Brodie feeling like he's being "worked" and he's probably right.

 

Brodie, on the other hand, likes to play. Ladybug is twelve now and she's not quite up to speed anymore so I take him back to his home farm now and then, just so he can romp with his mother and a younger half sister -- They have a grand time. No hard feelings there. They all have the same laid back personality.

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Here is pic of my pup at just about 7 weeks old. It may not be clear but she was stalking the older dogs & they'd just trotted by when & took the pic (my cell phone camera is s-l-o-w).

 

IMAG0005-1-1.jpg

 

These pix were taken in the same time frame. She is showing sustained interest in playing with toys in the yard & the other dogs. She is 6 mos old now and is a ball fiend....I actually wanted to avoid having a ball crazy dog (she will work stock mostly)but she picked it up on her own. She has serious OCD tendencies but I expect she would give 100% at just about anything I asked of her.

 

IMAG0014-1.jpg

 

IMAG0012-1.jpg

 

IMAG0056.jpg

I think I could adjust to another puppy :) She's beautiful!

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Ok....I tried to describe 3 full sibling personalities at 7 weeks and then describe how they ended up.

 

Any one of them might have chased a towel (Craig maybe)....or not (Soot, maybe not...Ross would have been horrified). But what would that have meant to me in terms of predicting future drive/temperament/athletic ability??? I understand I'm not looking for an agility/frisbee/sportee collie....so we're looking for different things. Chasing a towel would not have meant a single thing....except it's cute and funny and playful.

 

So what...the puppy chased a towel....I guess I don't understand how it is a predictor of the pups future.

 

BTW I have owned a WL German Shepherd and volunteered/fostered/BOD member of a large CA GSD rescue for many years. Border Collies and GSD are very different....actually, GSDs are much harder in many ways because of less interest in pleasing and higher dominance/aggression/fear issues. Most GSDs (esp WL) need to be convinced that you are worthy of allegiance. Most border collies are eager to please and understand simply for the joy of understanding and being your dog. Whereas most common GSD flaws are in aggression (dominance and fear), border collie flaws are can be in quirkiness/hyperactivity/ocd/fear/reactive behavior....and yes, they are softer and most in tune to subtle communication (intended or unintended). You may need to 'tone down' your dominance....won't be necessary. You should do fine with a border collie....I found them much much easier. I would suggest that you don't seek out the 'highest drive' border collie....a normal energy border collie will be plenty of dog and more suited to your life in the city and concerns about exercising/stimulating the dog sufficiently.

 

BTW I started with a neurotic pet border collie 13 years ago in a home in town and now have 7 border collies and a farm in the country. Addiction is a possibility :-)

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now that's a cute puppy. Does everyone on this forum have 4 border collies. Is owning one addictive, if you get one you end up getting several?

 

Others can put it better - I'm not always up on the terminology...I've always thought Border Collies do better in pairs -- but that's just my personal thinking. They like people, but they like each other too, or at least the ones we've owned did and these do as well but perhaps I shouldn't generalize. Most recently, we had one male, one female - both rescue dogs. When we lost the male, we lost our minds and brought two pups home, which Ladybug "adopted." It worked out okay, but it took a lot of work and effort - and still does. I've got three dogs to exercise and they all require different types of individual attention as well as group interaction to make sure they understand who is in charge (not any of them). Best thing to do is get one dog, settle in with it for a year or two, then add another if and when you think you want one.

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