What should I expect to see in a 7-week-old dog?

[juliepoudrier]

I do think a rescue might be a better choice for him though. That way he can test its drive and start teaching it frisbee right away, instead of waiting a year.

This was the point I was trying to make. There's no real way to test a pup's aptitude for a particular sport. You just don't know until you are able to do the real training, and that's a year or two down the line. By then a person is generally already emotionally invested in the dog. So what happens if the pup one gets now turns out not to like frisbee? Or to love it, but have only mediocre aptitude (like the pittie in the photos the OP posted in the gallery)? What then? I have one dog who loves frisbee, would do flips and everything, but ONLY if the frisbee was a soft one. She wouldn't look at a competition style frisbee, let alone catch it. Fortunately, frisbee was just a fun thing we did together, so using a soft frisbee was fine by me. But if I had wanted her to be a competition dog, I would have been out of luck.

 

I would say the same to someone looking for a stock dog. If you want a guarantee, get one old enough to have already been started so you can pretty much see what you're getting. Or be prepared for the distinct possibility that the pup you got might not, in the end, be suitable for the task/sport/whatever you have in mind.

 

For people who have their hearts set on a pup, I really just want to point out that they really must consider that the pup might not end up being the exact dog they were hoping for, and hopefully they'll be okay with that, because most border collies can live upward of 15 years. That was my point about Plan B. If the pup you get today doesn't turn out to be the amazing frisbee dog you were hoping for, are you prepared to change your expectations? Rehome the young dog? Something else?

 

J.

[brady's mom]

Once upon a time, I wanted a Disc Dog, but Brady thinks a frisbee is more for eating than it is for chasing. So, I've let my dog's personal interests shape my dog sport goals--agility, fly ball, rally, etc.

 

But most of all, at the end of the day I just want him to be my boy.

 

That's what you should look for in your pup, but I second the rescue ideas (that's my choice for the next border collie I add to my family). You'll be able to more accurately test a potential adoptee and are probably more apt to find a dog that fits perfectly in with your interests.

 

Good luck on your search and I hope you find the companion that you're looking for.

[Blackdawgs]

This is a very interesting thread as I am in the market for an agility prospect and am wavering between a young adult in rescue and a pup. As others have said, the rescue seems to be more of a sure thing, but it would be a blast to have a pup while I am young and fit enough to keep up with it. And there is a training it your way thing, etc, etc.

 

The hard core sports people say that a dog can be shaped to like anything and you can build drive for any sports activity. If the dog lacks the drive, it's all the trainers' fault. Maybe this is true or maybe it isn't and perhaps it says that an awful lot of us are not good trainers.

 

I do know that I was born with certain preferences that have absolutely nothing to do with the way that I was raised. Could my parents have shaped me to love playing the piano? Maybe. But, I'm glad that they didn't try.

[D'Elle]

Please don't buy a puppy from a backyard breeder.

Please go to a rescue to get your dog.

[workindogs]

This is a very interesting thread as I am in the market for an agility prospect and am wavering between a young adult in rescue and a pup. As others have said, the rescue seems to be more of a sure thing, but it would be a blast to have a pup while I am young and fit enough to keep up with it. And there is a training it your way thing, etc, etc.

 

There are plenty of pups and adolescents in rescue.....there is no reason you can't both rescue and get a pup. There are very very good quality pups in rescue for the active pet, sport home (agility/frisbee/obedience/flyball) or hobby herder. You might have to be patient to find the right one....but you would have to be patient to find and wait for a good quality working-bred pup as well.

[Blackdawgs]

Unless the rescue knows exactly where the pup came from, I think that getting a pup thru rescue is very risky. A rescued pup is a complete unknown because one doesn't know the temperment of the parents or have the first clue of what they look like. Although a young adult rescue is also an unknown from a breeding standpoint, you can have a pretty good idea of the temperment and structure of a 1 year old. Not true with a 4 month old. And many rescues speuter very young pups. I'm not a fan of pediatric spay-neuter, so that also rules out a young rescue pup for me.

 

So, for me it's probably either buying a pup or adopting a young adult. Unless the rescue could tell me exactly where the pup came from. If the rescue just grabs a litter of pups from the county shelter or a puppy mill that would be a total no go for me.

[Rave]

You certainly can test a pup for characteristics/traits that tend to make a good sports dog. It's not a guarantee either way, but can be a somewhat telling predictor. It's also certainly possible to take a dog without these traits and turn it into a good sports dog, but it's a whole lot easier when you have an easy to work with dog, especially if you're not an above average trainer.

 

If you're getting an older dog, I really recommend testing its hips before making a commitment. If you're getting a pup, I highly recommend researching the health of the parents lines.

[ejano]

I pick the one I'm drawn to. The more I'm drawn to a dog and connected to a dog the more I'll try for the dog.

 

 

And the more the dog will try for you .

 

Roscoe, I've only had two pups in my life -- one when I was a kid, and one just two years ago...it's been a long time since I was a kid. I've never been disappointed in the older dogs we've brought into our home -they've been anywhere from 8 months to four years old. If you feel you need a clearer picture of what the dog's personality and talents are, go to rescue for an older dog that will be a good fit for you - or perhaps you might consider purchasing a dog from someone if you are "into" certain pursuits in which BCs excel. If your heart is set on getting a pup and you just want to enjoy life with a dog, pick the one you like the best and discover life together...there are no certainties and the dog will lead you to activities that you can enjoy.

 

ETA -- My advice...leave the towel at home...as I said, I've only had one pup (well, two if you count the fact that we raised litter mates - don't do that!) , but he needed no encouragement to shred anything!

 

Best,

Liz

[geonni banner]

This is a very interesting thread as I am in the market for an agility prospect and am wavering between a young adult in rescue and a pup. As others have said, the rescue seems to be more of a sure thing, but it would be a blast to have a pup while I am young and fit enough to keep up with it. And there is a training it your way thing, etc, etc.

 

The hard core sports people say that a dog can be shaped to like anything and you can build drive for any sports activity. If the dog lacks the drive, it's all the trainers' fault. Maybe this is true or maybe it isn't and perhaps it says that an awful lot of us are not good trainers.

 

I do know that I was born with certain preferences that have absolutely nothing to do with the way that I was raised. Could my parents have shaped me to love playing the piano? Maybe. But, I'm glad that they didn't try.

Is that like my friend's little brother? He used to say, "I'm glad I don't like mushrooms, cuz if I liked 'em, I'd eat 'em - and I hate 'em!"

[roscoe11]

Roscoe,

A quick question. Have you considered what you'll do if you get a pup and it turns out not to like doing frisbee? Just curious. Do you have a plan B?

 

J.

 

 

I am not getting a dog so I can compete in Frisbee dog competitions. I want to get a Border Collie and it seems like Frisbee dog competitions are the most accessible of the dog sports. All you need is a park and some Frisbees to train. I know he will need exercise. If he is like my GSD a walk around the block will not be enough. If the dog does not turn out to be a good Frisbee dog I guess I would look in to agility. Herding sheep would be my first choice but i live in the city.

[roscoe11]

Once upon a time, I wanted a Disc Dog, but Brady thinks a frisbee is more for eating than it is for chasing. So, I've let my dog's personal interests shape my dog sport goals--agility, fly ball, rally, etc.

 

But most of all, at the end of the day I just want him to be my boy.

 

That's what you should look for in your pup, but I second the rescue ideas (that's my choice for the next border collie I add to my family). You'll be able to more accurately test a potential adoptee and are probably more apt to find a dog that fits perfectly in with your interests.

 

Good luck on your search and I hope you find the companion that you're looking for.

 

Absolutely! This is exactly how I feel. I am looking for a dog the will fill the hole left in my hart after I put down my 12 year old German Shepherd. With him, as with a Border Collie he needed a lot of exercise and a job to be content. I am looking at Frisbee dog competitions as a source of exercise so we both can be happy.

 

By the way my German Shepherd as a puppy would chase a towel as long as you would play the game. He grew up to be a dog with a very strong developed prey drive. This made him a lot easier to train and to exercise. i can't believe anyone that has ever trained a dog does not understand the importance of prey drive as a motivator.

[Maralynn]

By the way my German Shepherd as a puppy would chase a towel as long as you would play the game. He grew up to be a dog with a very strong developed prey drive. This made him a lot easier to train and to exercise. i can't believe anyone that has ever trained a dog does not understand the importance of prey drive as a motivator.

 

I do understand it pretty well

 

BUT, a well bred working BC comes with prey drive as part of the package - they wouldn't work sheep if they didn't have prey drive. To me, get a working BC and prey drive is pretty much a given, not really something you have to worry about not having. You just channel it and teach self control.

 

ETA - Also, while most BC pups would chase a toy all day long, it's better to plan on 50/50 mental and physical exercise. Trick training, manners work, self control games. They love learning, often time just for the sake of learning and they want jobs to do - not just physical exercise.

 

My Missy wanted to learn just for the sake of learning - no treats, no toys (though she dearly loved her ball and would chase it all day long) just tell her what I wanted and that's what she wanted to do.

 

Kipp likes clicker work. I can get a bowl of kibble and he'll focus for 1/2 hour learning tricks. The breed wants to learn.

[gcv-border]

I am not getting a dog so I can compete in Frisbee dog competitions. I want to get a Border Collie and it seems like Frisbee dog competitions are the most accessible of the dog sports. .... Herding sheep would be my first choice but i live in the city.

 

" ... a dog with a very strong developed prey drive. This made him a lot easier to train and to exercise. i can't believe anyone that has ever trained a dog does not understand the importance of prey drive as a motivator. "

 

Similarly, I would prefer to participate in herding, but lack of access to sheep and the time to drive the 4 hour round trip (plus the lesson time) to a good trainer channeled my dog activity into agility. Other accessible activities you may want to consider include - nosework, cani-cross, being pulled on in-line skates by your harnessed dog (you live in a city with the cement and asphalt needed for skates), hiking with your dog wearing a doggy backpack and probably a few others I haven't thought of.

 

Luckily, the BC is usually toy- or food-driven which makes training a lot easier. But as another responder has mentioned, the top trainers can build intense prey-drive into their agility dogs. (The dogs run by one top European trainer are the left-over pups from a litter i.e. she doesn't choose the pick-of-the-litter). Probably the average trainer may not be able to develop that type of intense drive in a dog without prey drive, but it can be done.

 

P.S. A long time ago I read one hint for developing frisbee desire in a dog - use the frisbee as a dinner bowl! I am sure there are other (and better?) ways to accomplish frisbee fanaticism, but I am just throwing this out.

 

Jovi

[Journey]

This made him a lot easier to train and to exercise. i can't believe anyone that has ever trained a dog does not understand the importance of prey drive as a motivator.

 

Roscoe, your above statement concerns me on many levels. This isn't the first time you've mentioned *prey drive* so I ask what is your understanding of it and how do you use it as "motivation"?

[juliepoudrier]

Regarding using prey drive for training: I for one have never even considered prey drive in any pup I have raised, and yet I have managed to train them all to have good manners and basic obdedience, rock-solid recalls, to play fetch (or frisbee), including fetching in water (and including redirecting a swimming dog for a ball in the water another dog has missed), and to work to the open level on stock. As Maralyn said, the working genetics in a well-bred border collie are a form of prey drive, but these highly intelligent dogs don't always like mindless, repetitive activities. The pup I have now would probably chase a towel for a bit and then get bored and go find something else to do. Would I consider that behavior a trait of an untrainable (or difficult to train) dog? No. To me it shows a certain level of intelligence to not want to do the same thing endlessly. Of course, I'm the type of trainer who doesn't enjoy drilling and so I don't do it and perhaps am also drawn to dogs that don't have that sort of temperament.

 

But seriously, the really good trainers, IMO, figure out what motivates the dog (food, toys, praise, prey drive, etc.) and then use that to build the kind of behaviors they want for their specific activity (rather than insisting on prey drive as a prerequisite). So while prey drive may be important to you as a trainer based on your training style, that doesn't mean that one has to have prey drive in order to be able to train a dog, and train it well.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

By the way my German Shepherd as a puppy would chase a towel as long as you would play the game. He grew up to be a dog with a very strong developed prey drive. This made him a lot easier to train and to exercise. i can't believe anyone that has ever trained a dog does not understand the importance of prey drive as a motivator.

 

Roscoe, your understanding of exercise and a job for a border collie is commendable. However, in my very humble opinion, the "prey drive" thing seems misplaced in border collies. Border collies don't need prey drive to be motivated. Moving is what border collies do. They run, they play, they think, they learn, and if their bodies aren't in motion, their minds are.

 

Personally, I have never seen where "prey drive" is of any importance as a motivator in training a border collie. Not with the BC folks I know, whether for sheepdogging or agility. Border collies are born keyed to react to motion, and if a 7 week old pup doesn't choose to chase a towel, that is absolutely no indicator of how active, trainable, or vigorously athletic he will grow up to be. German Shepherds are apples to the border collie orange, and I hope you have spent enough time with BCs to understand different they are.

 

Please forgive if I seem sharp, but I guess the "prey drive" comment struck an off chord, with me. If you want to play dog sports with your dog, pretty much any border collie pup I've ever met could be easily trained to chase Frisbees, balls, sticks, boomerangs or any other thing.

 

If you want a good pup, look to quality, reputable breeders and for dog's sake, stay away from the backyard breeders! And if chasing a towel to demonstrate "prey drive" is your standard for choosing a pup, you are limiting yourself greatly. Let the parents show you who they are, if possible learn about pups from previous litters, and make your decision from there.

 

Best of luck.

 

~ Gloria

[Maralynn]

Personally, I have never seen where "prey drive" is of any importance as a motivator in training a border collie. Not with the BC folks I know, whether for sheepdogging or agility.

 

I use it. And I understand where the OP is coming from. The idea of drive building is central to schutzhund and other protection sports. I've used it with my two to build their interest and excitement for the reward I use in SAR work. I've done schutzhund style drive building with them.

 

But IMO it's different working with it in a BC than other breeds. Along with prey drive you have some strong, innate desires to please you, work with you and figure out what you want. And then they are good about chilling when needed.

 

It's more like you show them what the proper use of their drives is and they do it.

[Rave]

All breeds have (or have had before it was bred out of them) prey drive at some point. It's part of what makes a dog a dog. In some breeds, like BCs, that trait has been bred for, so it's usually there in abundance.... generally speaking of course. Some individual dogs and litters have less of it than others, especially if prey drive was not one of the factors selected for in that breeding. And the less you breed for it, the more it disappears. Sound familiar?

 

I think a point of confusion here is a well-bred working dog, and probably most poorly-bred working dogs too, will have plenty of prey drive. After all, it's a key component of working ability. Those getting working-bred dogs have never had to think about looking specifically for that trait because it's always been there, and hence laugh at a "towel test." I also think the understanding of what prey drive is is another point of confusion here.

 

In breeds that are further removed from their prey-driven ancestors by selective breeding practices, testing for prey drive is a common occurrence as prey drive is usually what we tap into for dog sports. It's not usually an issue in BC's yet, but I have seen a few couch-potato BC's who would score low on prey drive.

 

I've had the opportunity to work with a really awesome Schutzhund trainer in a class geared toward bringing out and building drive in all breeds of dogs and it was a great learning experience. The right amount of drive makes training so much easier. Too much drive and you better be a damn good trainer.

 

In dog sports, drive is of great importance.

[Rave]

Roscoe, your understanding of exercise and a job for a border collie is commendable. However, in my very humble opinion, the "prey drive" thing seems misplaced in border collies. Border collies don't need prey drive to be motivated. Moving is what border collies do. They run, they play, they think, they learn, and if their bodies aren't in motion, their minds are.

 

Personally, I have never seen where "prey drive" is of any importance as a motivator in training a border collie. Not with the BC folks I know, whether for sheepdogging or agility. Border collies are born keyed to react to motion, and if a 7 week old pup doesn't choose to chase a towel, that is absolutely no indicator of how active, trainable, or vigorously athletic he will grow up to be. German Shepherds are apples to the border collie orange, and I hope you have spent enough time with BCs to understand different they are.

 

Prey drive is a large part of what makes a BC a BC. BC's are motivated and move and think because they HAVE prey drive. BC's reacting to motion IS prey drive.

 

Personally, I have seen and experienced where prey drive is of GREAT importance to training any dog for sports, including BC's. I do not know one dog sports trainer out there who does not tap into prey drive when training for sports. They may not know that's what they are doing, or know what to call it, but it's what they're using.

[Rave]

Good reading:

 

http://kayehargreaves.com/articles/understanding-your-dogs-drives

[juliepoudrier]

I think a point of confusion here is a well-bred working dog, and probably most poorly-bred working dogs too, will have plenty of prey drive. After all, it's a key component of working ability. Those getting working-bred dogs have never had to think about looking specifically for that trait because it's always been there, and hence laugh at a "towel test." I also think the understanding of what prey drive is is another point of confusion here.

The point of confusion for *me* is why there's a need for a 7-week-old pup to show a *sustained* ("chase it all day") interest in a towel. My 7-week-old pup is interested in the chickens and other toys and will chase the other dogs, but she doesn't do it unendingly. If she gets bored with one toy/activity and moves on to another or goes and takes a nap, I don't immediately start worrying that she won't be trainable.

 

I get that prey drive is a good motivator for training dogs, though ISTM that some breeders have gone overboard on breeding for "drivey" dogs, but then those aren't breeders I'd go to anyway. What I don't get is how anyone can make decisions on trainability when a puppy isn't willing to chase a towel for a long period of time. Puppies generally have the attention span of a gnat (except when harrassing the big dogs, but even then it doesn't last all that long). And seriously, as I noted before, I think an intelligent dog is *more* likely to get bored with nonvarying play (chasing a towel and doing nothing but that) than a less intelligent dog, but that's JMO.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

I personally want a dog with some drive, but not drive overload. Not sure at all how this can be determined with a young puppy, so I'm not going to try to help with that one.

 

However, stupid question...I've always just heard it called "drive". When people talk about wanting a "drivey" dog, or a "high drive" dog, I never thought it had anything to do with prey drive. I just always thought about it as the dog's energy level, inclination to want to do things with it's people, focus, intensity, that kind of thing. Maybe I just never understood? Those things are related to prey drive?

[Rave]

I wouldn't expect any young pup to show sustained interest in anything. At 7 weeks, they have no attention span. The OP never stated how much interest or for how long a pup showed, or what he expected.

[Maralynn]

I personally want a dog with some drive, but not drive overload. Not sure at all how this can be determined with a young puppy, so I'm not going to try to help with that one.

 

However, stupid question...I've always just heard it called "drive". When people talk about wanting a "drivey" dog, or a "high drive" dog, I never thought it had anything to do with prey drive. I just always thought about it as the dog's energy level, inclination to want to do things with it's people, focus, intensity, that kind of thing. Maybe I just never understood? Those things are related to prey drive?

 

I've heard it explained that dogs have three different innate drives - pack, prey and reproduction.

 

Prey drive is the drive hunt/chase/catch. But you can transfer that from squirrels and rabbits to objects such as toys - movement triggers innate drives, chasing, catching biting fulfills those drives. Understanding how prey works gives a person a good understanding about how to motivate their dog using an object. Working dogs have been bred for extremes in their drives and those drives fulfilled in different ways. Border Collies want to control. Labs want to retrieve. Malinois want to bite and tug.

[SS Cressa]

Can a dog have drive with out prey drive?

 

I would be the one who wouldnt want a pup trying to kill a towel at such a young age. For me too high of a prey drive is a liability for a pet home. I dont know if s/he mention but would it be her 1st border collie?