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I have always heard that if you do not catch your dog in the act and correct it within just a few seconds that it is a waste of time to correct. The dog does not associate the "bad act" with the correction. They don't understand what they are being corrected for - or why you are being so mean.

 

Is that true? That's what I go by. If I don't catch them doing it then I just clean it up and go on. If I actually catch them then I correct them.

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In general, a correction after the fact is more of a punishment than correction, and punishment has a poor track record to actually changing behavior.

 

But does the dog have any idea what it is being punished for? I think someone told me that you have about 3 seconds or you are too late.

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I have always heard that if you do not catch your dog in the act and correct it within just a few seconds that it is a waste of time to correct. The dog does not associate the "bad act" with the correction. They don't understand what they are being corrected for - or why you are being so mean.

 

 

Yes, that is what I have heard too. If I catch my dog doing something I don't want him to do, I will say Ah Ah and then try to get him to do a substitute behavior and treat the deisred behavior - rather than a negative correction and leave it at that. Sometimes I am not quick enough to think of something else to do or just too lazy, and I leave it at an Ah Ah. I think it is more important for younger dogs/pups to be distracted or given a substitute behavior, whereas an older dog may be better able to handle an Ah Ah and just leave it at that. Not sure if this is right, but would be interested to hear other opinions.

 

Jovi

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I was always told this too, but what I came to believe is this:

A normal dog is easily capable of learning specific behaviors and the rules that he must follow, laid down by a consistent trainer.

 

When teaching a behavior, (sit) or a rule, (stay out of the garbage) a trainer must employ corrections the instant the unwanted behavior appears, and reward desired behaviors equally quickly. I think most people who work with dogs will agree with this. (except for those people who don’t believe in corrections of any kind – but that’s a whole ‘nother issue.)

 

But once the behavior or rule is demonstrably learned, i.e. the dog sits reliably, the dog keeps away from the garbage reliably, IMO, the situation/dynamic can change. Just as a normal dog can learn the rules he must follow, a really intelligent dog can also quickly grasp the rules that you must follow in interacting with him. One rule that some intelligent dogs come to understand quickly is if you don’t see him do it, you can’t correct him. And we all know how intelligent the average Border Collie is…

 

In the case of a dog that breaks well-understood rules out of sight, he is either taking advantage of this “loophole,” or he has been insufficiently proofed. I have worked with both. And I have no problem correcting the former, as long as you are sure the dog is not misbehaving because of the latter.

 

I stress that this can only be an acceptable response if you are certain the dog is trained & proofed on the behavior/ rule.

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I was always told this too, but what I came to believe is this:

A normal dog is easily capable of learning specific behaviors and the rules that he must follow, laid down by a consistent trainer.

 

I have found this to be true, also. How many times have you gotten home and Fido was slinking around looking extremely guilty? They often know when they've broken a rule.

 

But once the behavior or rule is demonstrably learned, i.e. the dog sits reliably, the dog keeps away from the garbage reliably, IMO, the situation/dynamic can change. Just as a normal dog can learn the rules he must follow, a really intelligent dog can also quickly grasp the rules that you must follow in interacting with him. One rule that some intelligent dogs come to understand quickly is if you don’t see him do it, you can’t correct him. And we all know how intelligent the average Border Collie is…

 

Who are you and why have you been watching Cerb?

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Is that true? That's what I go by. If I don't catch them doing it then I just clean it up and go on. If I actually catch them then I correct them.

 

The point of a correction is to interrupt the behaviour you don't want to happen. Punishing or "correcting" the dog after the fact does not accomplish that, so what's the point of correcting once the behaviour has already happened and the dog has moved on?

 

Corrections work when timed correctly, which is why they are effective for skilled handlers, and less effective when people with poor timing try to employ them. Too many people view corrections as a means of punishing a behaviour as opposed to stopping it in its tracks, and that affects their ability to employ them correctly.

 

RDM

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The point of a correction is to interrupt the behaviour you don't want to happen.

Certainly that is the purpose of a correction in the training process.

 

Punishing or "correcting" the dog after the fact does not accomplish that, so what's the point of correcting once the behaviour has already happened and the dog has moved on?

 

Correcting the dog for transgressing a well-understood rule serves the purpose of telling him, "Yes, I know what you did, and so do you. And I don't want it to happen again." You shouldn't need to get physical or belabor the point - that would be punishment. I find that pointing to "the scene of the crime" and asking "What's that?" to be quite sufficient. Once the dog has been "busted" for taking adavantage of a "loophole" they rarely, in my experience, do it again. Incidentally, I never, ever correct for house-soiling errors, except for pointed territory-marking urination which I actually witness. It's always possible the dog was simply caught short, or there was some other physical factor beyond the dog's control.

 

Corrections work when timed correctly, which is why they are effective for skilled handlers, and less effective when people with poor timing try to employ them. Too many people view corrections as a means of punishing a behaviour as opposed to stopping it in its tracks, and that affects their ability to employ them correctly.

RDM

 

Absolutely true.

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I used to live in a wheelchair accessible suite so the cabinet under the sink had no doors so that the wheelchair would fit while someone did dishes. It was the only place that the garbage can fit and so we put it there even though we were concerned that Laska might get into it while we were away. She did in fact have a hard time resisting but very sporadically. Being total novices at the time, we gave her a talking to whenever we came home to garbage everywhere. We also tried to put the garbage up when we left. This went on for months and when she got into the garbage, she looked very guilty when we got home. We were certain that she knew that she was not supposed to eat the garbage but just couldn't resist. Then one day we came home and she looked very guilty and we went to check the garbage and she had not touched it. Needless to say, we quickly abandoned that tactic and i truly believe that you have to catch your dog in the act.

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I'm not sure that a dog who "looks guilty" is actually feeling guilty more than they are responding to your facial expression or anger at seeing the mess, or simply behaving in an appeasing way because you get mad when there is trash on the floor.

 

For example: I have a dog who was almost 2 years old and not housetrained when I got him. He was the most challenging dog to housetrain I have ever had. The weather outside when I got him was atrocious, and since he had no concept of toileting outdoors it was a real effort to get him to go, and he would end up holding it then going in his crate or in front of me. I diligently corrected him for going in front of me, so he always managed to move where I wouldn't see him when he went.

 

A year later, we were visiting my Dad and my Dad's dog pooped in the house. My dog saw the poop and freaked out completely. I realized then the lesson I had taught him was "She would gets very mad when she sees poop." It didn't teach him that I wanted was him to poop outside, I taught him I didn't like poop on teh floor, no matter how it got there.

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It's true. What looks like guilt to most people is usually only uneasiness or fear. This is not only true of dogs, but tiny kids as well, and sometimes even adults.

 

Rushdoggie's example is a good one. So is Puppytoe's. If I see a look of "guilt" on my dog's face, (fortunately for both of us, this is rare) I search for what is troubling her, not what she may have "done."

 

My dog is one of the clever ones that figured out that "loophole" I spoke of earlier. And she never puts on the "worry face" when she's "surreptitiously" broken a rule. She sashays around looking smug. Little smarty-pants. :P I've seen toddlers do the same thing.

 

And then there's the cat. "Rule? What rule? I have no idea what you're talking about." ;)

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Correcting the dog for transgressing a well-understood rule serves the purpose of telling him, "Yes, I know what you did, and so do you. And I don't want it to happen again." You shouldn't need to get physical or belabor the point - that would be punishment. I find that pointing to "the scene of the crime" and asking "What's that?" to be quite sufficient. Once the dog has been "busted" for taking adavantage of a "loophole" they rarely, in my experience, do it again. Incidentally, I never, ever correct for house-soiling errors, except for pointed territory-marking urination which I actually witness. It's always possible the dog was simply caught short, or there was some other physical factor beyond the dog's control.

The dog may know what he was doing was wrong while he was doing it, but he/she is not making the connection between that and why you're saying "What's this" in a threatening manner.

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I agree with the "guilty look" not amounting to much. I've seen plenty of dogs look guilty when they did nothing wrong (just anticipating that sometimes mommy or dadd comes home and gets mad), and dogs will often look guilty even if another dog was the culprit. I believe there was even a study done where another dog's poop was placed on the floor, and it still elicited the guilty look, just as Rushdoggie pointed out. So just because they did something wrong doesn't mean they KNOW that's why the owner is mad... they're just putting the presence of trash or poop or shredded pillows or whatever on the floor together with the owner being upset.

 

For what it's worth, I've been frustrated and shown dogs their accident after the fact while telling them "No". It has accomplished absolutely nothing. Norman lifts his leg in the kitchen once in a blue moon, and I've pointed at it and scolded him... and sure enough, I'll find another puddle a few weeks later.

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I used to live in a wheelchair accessible suite so the cabinet under the sink had no doors so that the wheelchair would fit while someone did dishes. It was the only place that the garbage can fit and so we put it there even though we were concerned that Laska might get into it while we were away. She did in fact have a hard time resisting but very sporadically. Being total novices at the time, we gave her a talking to whenever we came home to garbage everywhere. We also tried to put the garbage up when we left. This went on for months and when she got into the garbage, she looked very guilty when we got home. We were certain that she knew that she was not supposed to eat the garbage but just couldn't resist. Then one day we came home and she looked very guilty and we went to check the garbage and she had not touched it. Needless to say, we quickly abandoned that tactic and i truly believe that you have to catch your dog in the act.

I've had people relate this story many times. The notion that the dog understands what's been done and looks guilty accordingly is pure fallacy. I've demonstrated to clients on numerous occasions what you've described.

 

What actually happens is that the dog becomes conditioned to look guilty any time you come home. You only notice the look of guilt when the dog is, in fact, guilty.

 

More intelligent dogs will even become conditioned to look guilty when there is garbage on the floor and you enter the house, and will know that if the door opens and there's garbage on the floor you're going to be angry. That does not correspond to the dog understanding that you're angry with the previously enacted behavior.

 

It's the same situation as related by rushdoggie; her dog was conditioned to associate the smell of poop with her owner getting angry, but there was no link to the behavior of pooping on the floor.

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The point of a correction is to interrupt the behaviour you don't want to happen. Punishing or "correcting" the dog after the fact does not accomplish that, so what's the point of correcting once the behaviour has already happened and the dog has moved on?

 

Corrections work when timed correctly, which is why they are effective for skilled handlers, and less effective when people with poor timing try to employ them. Too many people view corrections as a means of punishing a behaviour as opposed to stopping it in its tracks, and that affects their ability to employ them correctly.

 

RDM

I agree with this completely.

 

I also agree with the folks who say that a dog who looks guilty has been *conditioned* to do so by the reactions of the humans when they walk in the door and find something amiss.

 

As for the correct and redirect thing, if it's a puppy I might redirect its attention (especially if it's bothering another dog vs. just being obnoxious), but in general, I simpy correct (ah, ah!) and then let the dog choose to do something else.

 

J.

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As for the correct and redirect thing, if it's a puppy I might redirect its attention (especially if it's bothering another dog vs. just being obnoxious), but in general, I simpy correct (ah, ah!) and then let the dog choose to do something else.

 

J.

I agree with this completely. The only time I can think of off the top of my head where I would redirect is with a puppy chewing. I'll say "aahh" and then give them something they're allowed to chew, but in general all I'm after is stopping the behavior.
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I always believed the bit about how the dog only looks guilty because the owner's mad, until about a week ago.

 

I walked into the room, said 'hello dog' to my labrador in a big happy voice, and the dog leapt away from the table with the cake on it and slunk to me with her tail between her legs. I hadn't even noticed the cake myself, or what she was doing. But she did the whole 'submissive' thing, which is not a normal greeting for her.

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I always believed the bit about how the dog only looks guilty because the owner's mad, until about a week ago.

 

I walked into the room, said 'hello dog' to my labrador in a big happy voice, and the dog leapt away from the table with the cake on it and slunk to me with her tail between her legs. I hadn't even noticed the cake myself, or what she was doing. But she did the whole 'submissive' thing, which is not a normal greeting for her.

You interrupted her at the scene of the crime. That's very different than connecting a punishment to a previous behavior that is over and done with.

 

Like I said previously, dog's can be aware that they are doing something wrong, and your dog clearly knew she was busted even though you hadn't discovered the problem yet. That's not at all the same as if you had come into the kitchen and seen the cake, gone and found the dog, dragged her to the cake and said "what's this"!

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Like I said previously, dog's can be aware that they are doing something wrong, and your dog clearly knew she was busted even though you hadn't discovered the problem yet. That's not at all the same as if you had come into the kitchen and seen the cake, gone and found the dog, dragged her to the cake and said "what's this"!

 

which is also different from wandering in to the scene of a "crime" with your dog and asking, "What's this?" (in a conversational tone) and having the dog either looking at you with an expression of bland disinterest or a slight lowering of the ears and a look of, "Oh, that..."

 

People who drag their dogs to the "scene of a crime" are usually, and unnecessarily, (not to mention pointlessly) overreacting.

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People who drag their dogs to the "scene of a crime" are usually, and unnecessarily, (not to mention pointlessly) overreacting.

 

Definitely agree.

 

 

Thanks Barefoot, that's a good clarification.

 

She has done this as well when she's done the damage a bit earlier- when for example she's had an accident inside the house a short while before (the reaction didn't happen when another dog did it, only this once when she was the cause). She has a quick mind and absolutely no motivation. :rolleyes:

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While he's got his reactivity issues, my dog is exceptionally great at being a house dog. Doesn't get into garbage, counter-surf, chew things, etc., etc.. I have never come home to find a mess.

 

On maybe ten occasions over six years, he's been sick while I've been at work. I've found poop in the unused back bedroom a couple times, and most recently, down in the basement. (Such a good boy, that he goes to the most distant part of the house.) Since he is so well-behaved, I know it's just about being unable to hold it, and I always just clean it up and move on.

 

I've never scolded my dog after finding messes like this, and he's never once shown that submissive "guilty" behavior.

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which is also different from wandering in to the scene of a "crime" with your dog and asking, "What's this?" (in a conversational tone) and having the dog either looking at you with an expression of bland disinterest or a slight lowering of the ears and a look of, "Oh, that..."

 

People who drag their dogs to the "scene of a crime" are usually, and unnecessarily, (not to mention pointlessly) overreacting.

My point would be that any action directed at the dog after the fact is an overreaction on the part of the human.

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Wolfie had some stomach troubles a few years back. He was such a good housedog that he tried very hard to cover it up; he would either have his accident in the shower (much easier cleanup for me!) or pull clothing out of the hamper and cover up the mess (much harder cleanup for me, but I appreciated the effort).

 

I never scolded him because he clearly could not help it... but he was very disturbed by the presence of the mess.

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Wolfie had some stomach troubles a few years back. He was such a good housedog that he tried very hard to cover it up; he would either have his accident in the shower (much easier cleanup for me!) or pull clothing out of the hamper and cover up the mess (much harder cleanup for me, but I appreciated the effort).

 

I never scolded him because he clearly could not help it... but he was very disturbed by the presence of the mess.

Yeah, so much for the idea that dogs never feel bad when they break the rules... Sugarfoot has never been scolded for going indoors. Even when I was housebreaking her. It's happened maybe four times, and she always looks dispirited and embarrassed. Something went nuts in her gut a few weeks ago, and she had the screaming collywobbles. She got as close to the back door as she could, and then had a s**t storm. I was out at the time.

 

(The cat was circling around it making scraping motions toward it, as if to cover it up. You could hear him thinking, "Yeesh! Dogs... How gross!")

 

Sugarfoot looked ever so repentant, casting looks at the "scene of the crime." I sat down on the floor with her and commiserated. Then I gave her some shaved coconut and cleaned up the mess. She knew that mess belonged outside, and was visibly happier when it was cleaned up. She was kennel-kept as a pup, never indoors until I adopted her. But surprisingly easy to housebreak. So no, no one ever browbeat her about "accidents" on the floor.

 

The only times (2 exactly) I've asked Sugarfoot "What's that?" were the occasions when she took something that wasn't hers. One was a loaf of bread, out of my wagon that I use to bring my groceries home, and one was a stuffed animal of mine off the bed. No yelling, glowering or brow-beating. Certainly no hitting. Just "What's that?" in a quiet but serious tone of voice. That was all it took. She leaves my things alone - edible and non-edible. My last "overreaction" was two years ago. She got it. She remembered. Some dogs do. Some dogs don't.

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I wish I could convince the people that I meet that they have conditioned their dogs to look (ashamed, guilty, chagrined, fill in the blank) when they come home, or say to the dog "what have you done!?", or (fill in the blank). And that the dogs do not understand why they are being punished.

I wish I could get them to understand that, in fact, that kind of punishment is abusive. But they very rarely listen to me, because they are sooo convinced that they "know" their dog ever so well, and "know" that the dog knows he or she has done something bad, because that is the interpretation they are putting on the dog's behavior, and they are certain it is accurate. It is very sad, because I encounter this all the time, and I feel ever so badly for the dogs.

:(

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