Contact Behavior...which do you prefer?

[PositiveFirstDT]

Hello everyone, I am about to start end of contact behavior training with my Border, and I still have not decided on which I want to train. I have always done 2 on 2 off in the past with other dogs, but I am open to training something new. What do you train, and how do you like it? Pros, Cons? Good reference to something that compares the systems?

[brndlbc]

My first two dogs I ran with running contacts. Now that they are either retired or expired I can admit to myself that our running contacts were really "Hail Mary" contacts as I had to "pray" that the dog hit the contact zone. The A-frame and teeter were no issues as my dogs natural striding allowed them to hit the zone every time but the dogwalk was a different story. I had to be at the contact zone for the dogs to be reliable.

 

With the dog I run now, he is 2o2o and it was taught as an independent behavior meaning that I am not part of the contact criteria. My youngster I am teaching four on the floor via Ann Croft's method for the a-frame and dogwalk. The teeter is "four on" although she tends to slide off into 2o2o. So far so good with the "four on the floor". We are not at the point of fading anything out yet so it will be interesting to see how things go. This is the first time I have taught this. We are keeping all of our targeting skills alive in the event that I decide that I do not like what I am getting and switch to 2o2o for everything.

[in2adventure]

Have you looked into this for running contacts?

 

http://silvia.trkman.net/

[SecretBC]

I do feel that if you want to go for true running contacts, Silva's method seems to be one of the best out there. I know several people who have trained with that method or are in the process of training with that method and the results are fantastic.

 

Ultimately, I feel that a large part of it comes down to: How often do you train, how often do you have access to equipment, and how much space do you have?

 

If you want to really train a good, reliable running contact, I feel that you A) Must have your own equipment, B ) must have adjustable equipment and C) must have a large area in which to work.

 

On the flip side, a stopped contact (2o/2o, four on, four on the floor) is something that most people can train in their house simply using things like the stairs or a short plank. Daily access to full sized equipment is not necessary.

 

I shaped Secret's 2o/2o behavior using a teeter plank in the basement last winter. By the time spring rolled around, she already understood the behavior and she transitioned it to full sized equipment with no problem whatsoever. We did not school contacts much at all last year, but she has 100% reliable 2o/2o in training. First trial is in a couple of weeks, we'll see what happens. lol She has 2o/2o on all contacts for now. I may change the a-frame in the future, we shall see.

 

Both of my boys run the a-frame. I did not use any method for this. The little guy simply hits the contact 95% of the time by virtue of his size (that is not to say he's not capable of the odd random leap!). The big guy sometimes likes to one-stride the a-frame and occasionally gets called, but not often enough that I've bothered to worry about it.

 

Both of the boys have a four-on stopped dog walk. Will I ever train that method again? No. The criteria is too ambiguous to the dog and they often stop high and creep down. The big guy had to be retrained (poor foundations!) and that's what he chose -- He didn't like 2o/2o whatsoever. I didn't do 2o/2o with the little guy because it seemed *silly* to ask that of a 14" dog (I don't know why I thought that, but that was my reasoning at the time). Kaiser is finally understanding the stop at trials, but he is notorious for stopping high.

 

Because Kaiser was not stopping at trials, I briefly switched him over to a running contact last fall. I used hoops because my dog walk is not adjustable. It worked for one trial, then he was just all over the place. When winter came we went back to the stop because there was no way to school the running dog walk enough to come close to maintaining it. We'll see what happens this spring. He really does seem to prefer running, and I don't think there's any reason a dog his size *shouldn't* be able to run -- But yeah... Running contacts are a lot of work!

[Crawford Dogs]

I teach Linda Mecklenburg's 1RTO method. There is a free article download at http://www.awesomepaws.us/?page_id=702 I use her method because it allows the dog to move naturally (no "henpecking or strange movements required that may lead to repetitive stress injuries) and has clear criteria for the dog. I do keep an eye out to see if any other method might be worth trying but haven't found one I like quite as well.

[Root Beer]

I tried the Rachel Saunders Box method for running contacts with Dean, but he never really took to it. He did the striding perfectly on the floor, but never got the idea on the A-Frame. He does a running on the A-Frame, and a 4 on at the end of the dogwalk and teeter.

 

With Maddie we do a modified version of the down on the floor with her A-Frame. She actually runs to her CU Mat at the end of the A-Frame. In competition I turn that into a running contact and that works for her. I would not do anything that haphazard with a future dog, but she's 10 and it works for her, so that's what we do.

 

I am bound and determined to train a really good 2 on 2 off with Tessa. I think she is going to be very fast and I can see her being the type to bail off of the contacts once she gets her confidence on them. I am starting the stop with her now, even though she is only walking across boards on the floor at this point. My plan is to teach it through the good old fashioned backchain.

[huskerdog (liz)]

Running Contacts, hands down.

 

DogSport magazine actually just had a great article about this.

[PositiveFirstDT]

Running Contacts, hands down.

 

DogSport magazine actually just had a great article about this.

 

How often do you train your dogs? Do you have your own equip? How long have you been competing with the running contacts?

[Mariah]

I trained my BC's and Pyre's contacts with Silvia Trkman's method. I am very happy with the results. I would say you don't HAVE to have your own equipment, but if you don't, you definitely need access to some on a regular basis. Training RCs is a process that can take months and months. Lots of problems can arise not only early in your training, but later as well. If you are willing to put lots of time and effort into training contacts, then RCs are a great experience. However, I know many people that try it then go to 2o2o, simply because getting the criteria down for RCs can be very difficult. My Pyre is 2.5 and has a near 100% hit rate. My BC is 15 months and has been learning RCs since last summer and he still isn't very consistent. All in all it is a very frustrating but rewarding experience.

[Olivia]

2o2o for me. I've seen running contacts that look good but I've never seen really solid, 100% consistent ones. I went to a running contact workshop on a Friday of a weekend long show and was very interested to watch the woman's dogs the rest of the weekend. She said that one of her dogs was 100% and that he had a 5 stride dogwalk. I watched and videoed all of her runs and saw several different stridings (which I am under the impression is the big way to train so that the strides are always the same) and 2 missed contacts.

 

I've also seen a running contact be called for a missed contact when they did hit it (saw the video) but it was so fast and the hit was higher on the zone so the judge called a miss. With a good solid 2o2o the judge won't miss it and you can quick release it and still have a very fast contact performance.

 

Also, while I love to train I have a life outside of agility and I found that the 2o2o gave my dogs the clearest, easiest criteria so they got it quickly and happily so we didn't have to worry quite as much about those contacta and get to do other stuff. I also know that 2o2o is supposed to be easier on the joints but I wonder a little about the sheer number of repeats that have to be done to teach the skill vs. a faster taught method that doesn't have to be repeated as much.

[gcv-border]

Good Question. I think that the method you ultimately choose should be one that fits your dog's running style, your ability to train a specific method and your personal investment in a particular method.

 

Currently, I am retraining from a 2020 to a "true" running contact (i.e. ST's running contacts method). I define a "true" running contact as one where the dog actually accelerates on the down ramp and through the contact zone. The method where the dog decelerates on the down ramp until the handler 'releases' them (quick release) is not a 'true' running contact. It can look pretty fast until you see a dog with a true running contact. It blew my mind. (but can you manage the speed?)

 

I chose to retrain to a RC because my dog had a shoulder injury (not from agility - it occurred when he was playing with a ball) which required surgery. When asked, the surgeon indicated that he felt a running contact would be better for my dog in the future. If you are interested, Clean Run ran an article in which someone evaluated the stress on dogs' joints from stopped contacts. It is a good argument for not using stopped contacts.

 

I just attended a Sylvia Trkman workshop on running contacts last week. (She was in the U.S. for three weeks.) It was only 2 hours and thus quite superficial WRT running the dogs, but I felt the value was in her description of why she uses RCs and the logic of how she trains it in different situations. For your situation (new dog), it may be helpful to know that it is easier to train RCs to new dogs. Retrains take longer and may be less successful depending on how good a trainer you are (this is where I may have a problem ;^)

 

I think another tip is that dogs seem to learn her method better if a dog is used to clicker training and shaping.

 

There is a lot of help on the internet for RCs. Just type in 'running contacts' on Youtube. Sylvia Trkman also has a FAQ on her website for how to train running contacts. There is a Yahoo group, Run_Dont_Walk that is specific for discussing RDWs.

 

Here are a few pros and cons IMHO:

Pros: super fast (1.2-1.4 seconds for a fast BC), less stress on joints

Cons: can you handle the speed?, retrains may be less consistent and require more training

 

As far as training repetitions: most of the training takes place on a flat or slightly elevated board until the dog really 'gets it' (i.e. hits the contact) so it is not any more stressful that normal running. Training sessions shouldn't be more than 10-20 reps in order to keep motivation high. Supposedly, once you your dog knows the dogwalk, the Aframe comes for free (i.e. requires very minimal training.) I am nowhere near there yet so can not speak from personal experience.

 

Jovi

[in2adventure]

Lots of good info about the running contacts. Grady is in rehab due to a freak injury (not agility related) and his training is on hold. I was in the process of retraining the Sylvia way and was hoping someone would pipe in about it. I'm convinced this is the way to train him and since he was never reinforced with any one method (my own mistake) I'm hoping it won't take too long to train him to it.

 

I do a modified running contact for Lucia. I didn't know about 2O2O when we first started agility and this is what I ended up with. She does VERY well with it and it's reinforced with a target during training session. It's really not an orthodox way of training, but it works for her. I would recommend it as a regular training method.

[gcv-border]

Regarding the worry that judges will sometimes call a close RC as a 'miss': I think that judges are having to get used to the fact that more competitors are using a RC. That means that the judge may have to work/run a little more to make sure that they are in the correct position to judge the contact zone hit. I have been at trials where I KNOW that the judge was not directly in line-of-sight with the contact zone and was judging based on experience.

 

One funny suggestion I heard was that all competitors should start declaring their contact method when they step to the start line so the judge can be ready for the fast RCs.

 

Jovi

[airbear]

I'm teaching a RC for the DW and frame, and a 2o/2o for the teeter. The RC is being trained under Daisy Peel's instruction (modified Trkman?) and so far, I'm enjoying the process. My first agility dog had PnP (point and pray) contacts, my current trial dog has 2o/2o, which I'm happy with, but they're not super-fast, even with a quick release. Like Jovi noted, inasmuch as one 'quick releases' the dog, the dog was never trained to accelerate down the ramp like a true running contact.

 

This is a true running contact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2egE9-b5JiU

 

 

I'm using the board from my teeter for the plank work, but I'll probably be buying a DW soon. I have a very long backyard.

 

The process of training the RC is what made me choose this method. I also like the challenge of flat-out running with my dog. It's not for the faint of heart, that's for sure!

[Andale]

I use independent 2/o-2/o with both of my dogs (border collie and aussie) on all contact obstacles. I'm old, have bad knees so it gives me a chance to catch up. One problem that has popped up with my aussie is "lawn darting," where the dog stops so abruptly at the bottom of the A-frame, the rear feet actually lift off the contact surface. I was penalized for this at an AKC trial last summer. I'm using a target at the bottom of the contact to fix this.

[alligande]

I use 2o2o, although our contacts are terrible. My older dog was my first agility dog and I did not understand why we were doing what we were. We are still trying to solve those problems, and really he has what I have heard described as a managed running contact, as in I want him in the 2o2o but we do not stop.

The young one I wanted to have a 2o2o as he is very fast and I do not think my handling skills would be capable of managing a RC. The other reason is after studying Slyvia Trckmans videos, I do not have space in my yard for full size contacts, and when we go to training it is not set up to work on indiviual obstacles. So I do not think I would be able to train it well.

I attended a handling seminar where the trainer loved my dog, hated his contacts, we are going to a foundation seminar in 3 weeks that focuses on contacts so I am hopping to get some ideas to resolve the problems. My regular trainer is not as picky, and as we get the contacts in class it is not commented on. So we work on our own to improve the situation.

[Mariah]

Would just like to add something I forgot: The RC process goes much more quickly if the handler, and the dog, are very clicker savvy.

[SecretBC]

A point of note to those who are still up in the air about which to train -- So much of the initial RC training focuses on the dog running straight off the DW. But judges are taking note of this and many courses lately involve hard turns off the DW -- Not hard at all if you have a stop, but certainly much more difficult with a RC (especially if they plant an off course obstacle straight off the end!).

 

Silvia does address turns in her training, but most people don't start turns until the straight RC are solid. This can delay the point at which some people choose to start trialing their young dogs -- Or you may simply choose to NQ on courses with turns until your dog is trained to them.

 

Just something to consider. I am in awe of dogs with awesome RC, but I just know I'm too lazy to follow through with the training. I don't have World Team aspirations, so we'll stick with a stop.

[in2adventure]

The RC Sylvia teaches doesn't really take that long to teach. Just my opinion though. A dog doesn't compete until it's 18 months old, at the earliest. Even if you start training your dog at 1 year, getting to an acceptable contact shouldn't be that hard in 6 months. If the dog isn't trained to perform an obstical correctly, then you shouldn't even think about trialing him/her yet. You wouldn't trial a dog that can't weave, why would you trial a dog that can't do it's contacts? You're only doing the dog a diservice unless you plan on throwing the run out right from the start line and are planning to use the run as a training tool.

[gcv-border]

I am of the same understanding as in2adventure WRT training the RDW - if you start with a "fresh" dog (i.e. not one that has already learned a contact behavior), it doesn't take that long to train a RDW. Of course, it depends on what your definition of long is. To train a 2020, my dog learned the behavior on a flat plank in about 2 sessions, he was pretty good on the individual obstacle within a couple of weeks, but it took longer to incorporate the correct contact 2020 behavior into a sequence when he was screaming around the course (he did not want to stop and had to be reminded). With a retrain (as my dog is), it will be taking longer. I am taking 6-8 weeks off from trialing to try and retrain, but am not sure if it will be long enough since my dog LOVES to jump the contact zone.

 

With a puppy, Sylvia said it depends on the dog of course, but 6 months old is not too young. But she only trains the RC with young ones on a flat plank, maybe 1 or 2 times a day for 10 repetitions for a couple of weeks and then may take a few weeks off - since it is a young puppy, she doesn't want it to get stale. Remember, early RC training is only running on a flat plank, usually chasing a toy - no different than just running around the yard. So yes, they should be ready to do a RC when they are old enough to trial.

 

WRT turns off the RC: they are certainly a challenge. But my understanding is that one teaches the dog a verbal indicating a tight turn separately from the RC training. Once both the RC and tight turn behaviors are consistent, then you meld them together for turns off the DW or AF. At least that is what I am doing (still teaching the separate behaviors) and hope they sync together without too much confusion.

 

Of course, Sylvia seems to make everything seem simple (and it is for her) whereas many of the rest of us have our struggles. ;~)

 

Jovi

[Northof49]

FWIW, we had Dave Munnings here for a week long seminar, (for those who aren't familiar with the name, he has been one of the top World handlers consistently over the past few years) and there was a lot of discussion on contacts.

 

He has gone to a running contact on the Aframe, as it is easy to teach the dog the four strides which brings them into the down contact and because he is always there with the direct to re-direct the dog after the Aframe, however, people with the running contacts on the dogwalk, no matter who, does not have consistent running contacts, and if you look at the World Championships, etc, they are not won on the contacts but on the ground - tighter turns on the jumps, faster weaves.

 

He has a 2o2o on the teeter and dogwalk and will do a quick releases. He had us work three quick releases in a row with our release word and the 4th time just run by without giving the release word. If the dogs self-released, more work making the bottom the best place to be. It was amazing how well dogs progressed in this. Most of his contact work is done on the down ramp, not even the entire dogwalk.

 

We also discussed the fact that up here in Canada, gamblers is a big part of the game, so that makes a difference on what we might want on the Aframe. They don't run Gamblers in the UK so there is no need for stopping and re-directing like we often need to do in AAC Gamblers.

 

If anyone gets a chance to go to one of his seminars, take the opportunity. He is such a nice guy and a very good teacher. It's about making the dog happy and wanting to work for you and its rewards. We had experienced dogs, and beginner dogs, high drive and not so drivey, and everyone was given the same amount of time and his attention. His handling is based on the more information both physically and verbally you can give to your dog, the better your team work will be.

[brndlbc]

FWIW, we had Dave Munnings here for a week long seminar,

If anyone gets a chance to go to one of his seminars, take the opportunity.

 

So you think he is worth the time and money? Ironically I just sent him (as in right before coming here) an email about doing a seminar for us here in the states so I am glad to hear good things about him. I also have communicated with some of his students and they too think he is great.

[Root Beer]

He has gone to a running contact on the Aframe, as it is easy to teach the dog the four strides which brings them into the down contact . . .

 

You know, it strikes me that doing this repeatedly over the course of the dog's lifetime can't be particularly great for the joints, either. Especially with a drivey dog.

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't train a running A-Frame, but the four stride thing just seems like it would cause a lot of wear and tear over time.

 

Thoughts?

[Mariah]

I'm not sure how it is hard on the dogs. A 4-stride a-frame lands my 21" BC in the top half of the contact zone, and it is much lower impact then slamming into 2o2o. When you think about it, a very high percentage of 2o2o positions are really hard on the dogs' fronts. I suppose you could argue that the landing after leaving the a-frame is harsh, but it is similar with jumps, and yet we still run our dogs at 26". Even people who train 2o2o teach their dogs to leap the apex, stride down again, then get into 2o2o. I'm not sure what the difference actually is between the two except with running, they leave the contact and continue, and with 2o2o, the dog takes an extra little stride and gets into 2o2o. A dog that is well conditioned and has proper structure shouldn't break down from having a running a-frame. So I don't know if you would prefer a 3-stride a-frame...because hitting the down ramp once, right at the top of the yellow, would cause a significant impact after a huge apex leap, and also on the jump from the actual contact on to the ground.

[mum24dog]

A point of note to those who are still up in the air about which to train -- So much of the initial RC training focuses on the dog running straight off the DW. But judges are taking note of this and many courses lately involve hard turns off the DW -- Not hard at all if you have a stop, but certainly much more difficult with a RC (especially if they plant an off course obstacle straight off the end!).

 

The same is happening here in Europe and I believe Silvia Trkman got caught out more than once at the last European Open.

 

I'm sure those handlers who are faster and younger than I am will figure out a way to deal with the traps that they are faced with but for the average handler and the average dog 2o2o is a more felexible method and with clearer criteria for both dog and handler to understand. (It also adds points on the course where a fizzy brained dog has to gather its concentration.)

 

I'm training a new dog now and have had this discussion with myself. She is perfectly built to run contacts but I'm not so we'll stick with 2o2o.