Does this sound ok? UPDATED

[Miztiki]

The behaviorist who saw Boyden (edit: Lucy, not Boyden, duh.) yesterday has 6 BC's herself and gave me the contact info for someone not too terribly far who trains Aussies and BC's on different stock. For $35 they said they'd see what Boy does around stock and here's how they responded to me:

 

I prefer the dog have a good down but it's not mandatory. I have some dog-broke sheep and will use them in a small area. What I look for is:

 

1. Inner drive to work

 

2. Conscious effort circle around to the opposite side of the stock and keep his stock grouped.

 

3. A sense of balance or feeling of where he needs to be to move the stock to you.

 

4. Confidence to move stock.

 

5. I need to see the dog thinking and controlling stock and not just chasing them around in a circle.

-----------------

 

I don't expect much from Boyden really, I'd just like to see if he has any herding ability at all.

 

I don't want to waste their time or look like an idiot by bringing my mutt over there and have him run around and bark like a fool or worse, bite the sheep.

 

The neighbors have a pasture full of steers, mostly for keeping the pasture mowed. The park has lots of ducks. Is there something I could try with the cattle or ducks that might tell me if I should pursue this or not? He shows lots of interest, but he doesn't crouch or have the eye.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Wow, most of my dogs would have failed. OK, pretty much all. Maybe Ann would be ok but she's still a baby and that crazy prey drive hasn't kicked in yet! I've had quite nice dogs run around like a fool and bite the sheep their first few times on stock. YOu can't really tell much until you've put a bit of training into a dog.

 

Don't try to work wild ducks or unbroke stock (unless they are small steers and it's a very safe area). Later if you decide it's something you want to do with Boyden, a small flock of domestic ducks would be perfect for your situation - they weed at ground level and keep the bugs down. Yes, they eat mosquitoes and gnats by the pound! They produce eggs and, if you have the stomach to butcher them, a very nice occasional treat for the dinner table. Impressive for company to be able to set down a couple of organically raised roast ducklings - yum.

[Bill Fosher]

It should go without saying that you shouldn't even think about working your neighbors' cattle without their permission.

[kelpiegirl]

WOW, my two would have failed as well! What he mentioned in my opinion are the BEST outcomes. Most dogs, when first exposed to sheep fall somewhere in the chase and be nutty, eat sheep doo doo, or don't somewhere in between there. What was done with my dogs on the first time was to bring them in a small pen, on a long line, and see what the interest was- these were dog broke sheep. Then, put the dog away for a bit and do it again. This is a good way to see how the dog is, with a break in between. There are probably several herding folks near you who do this. As long as Boy is on a long line and cannot injure the sheep, you are in pretty good stead. Don't worry about feeling bad if Boy isn't interested- remember, you are doing this for him! As for the cattle nearby, I didn't get the impression you wanted to work your dog on them, more like you wanted to see his reaction? Best to leave them alone, unless they are dog broke, and the owner invites you. Cattle are not for the feint of heart. I brought one of my dogs to a herding instinct test- yes, there, I admitted it. In any case, this was about $30.00 and I was able to see my young girl show her interest, and we got a cutesy certificate too.

I would go ahead and meet with this person, and first watch him with other dogs, and if you are comfortable with him, then go for it!

Julie

[laurie etc]

This sounds like the written criteria for a formal "instinct test" (maybe AHBA's?)- not a first time meeting with stock. I would not be surprised at all if the first meeting did not produce these results. But maybe a first meeting would give you an idea of whether he has an interest to continue. Also, because you are not used to working with sheep, the instructor/rancher would most likely be the one in the pen with the dog and sheep. I would be leary of someone who just told you to go on in and see what happens. After a few visits and a bit of training (for you and for Boy, if Boy has the interest) maybe you could expect him to match up with that ideal.

 

PS- My personal experience - a dog who has a solid down and "call off" on sheep the first time is probably not that interested. I've basically had to corner mine, and drag them "kicking and screaming" away from the sheep, even those that had an obedient "down" at other times.

[laurie etc]

Here's what I copied from the AHBA (American Herding Breeds Association) Herding test requirements - their "instinct test". It is open to all herding breeds (and their different herding styles). Sound familiar?

 

QUALIFICATIONS FOR PASSING HERDING TESTS

 

First Leg:

A dog which, after a period of introduction, shows sustained interest in herding livestock, either going around them, gathering them and moving them toward the handler, or moving them ahead of the handler to drive them, or a combination.

 

A dog which works quietly, a dog which barks (a little or a lot), a dog which may feint as though to nip, or actually nips if on larger animals providing it is appropriate for the situation and not a threat to the health or safety of the livestock, are all acceptable. A dog may be loose-eyed or may show some degree of eye. A variety of approaches and styles are acceptable.

 

It is to be remembered that many dogs through inexperience will make mistakes in their early exposures to livestock, but at all time the tester must see clear-cut evidence of herding instinct, with the dog attempting to keep the animals grouped and attempting to control their movement. Dogs which merely chase, play or push stock around, not really herding, must not be passed; distinction must be made between herding behavior and chasing. Dogs should show some responsiveness to direction.

 

 

Second Leg:

In addition to the above, the dog must exhibit the following: moving the stock in a controlled fashion from one end of the arena to the other; a stop; and a recall.

 

 

NOT PASSABLE

 

First Leg:

A dog which, after a period of introduction, fails to show sustained herding interest in livestock. A dog which repeatedly leaves or attempts to leave the working area. A dog which makes little or no attempt to control the grouping and movement of the stock.

 

A dog which shows aggression toward the livestock so strong and of a nature to be considered a threat to the health or safety of the livestock. Any dog which repeatedly splits the group and attacks one or several animals, or grips any animal and holds on. A dog which evidences chasing rather than herding behavior.

 

Any dog which, for whatever reason, cannot be tested off lead or with lead dragging.

 

Any dog which shows fear of the livestock in such a fashion that the dog cannot demonstrate herding instinct.

 

 

Second Leg:

In addition to the above, a dog which fails to demonstrate the required additional skills, which does not move the stock in a controlled fashion, which constantly and unnecessarily circles the stock, which cannot be tested off lead, or cannot be handled by its owner or owner's agent.

[Jeanne Bell]

NOT PASSABLE

 

"Any dog which repeatedly splits the group and attacks one or several animals, or grips any animal and holds on. A dog which evidences chasing rather than herding behavior."

 

 

Well, I feel pretty good about this. Perhaps all the young working Border Collies will fail their "instinct tests" and AKC will close their books to our ill bred mutts.

 

Jeanne Bell

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

 

I actually think the AKC test is more "difficult", ie, they are pickier about the control the dog exhibits. I've often laughed to people coming out here thinking of trying the AKC test (not here, somewhere else), that my dogs wouldn't have been able to pass until they were ready to trial in Novice-novice. Steve didn't put a stop on Jen until she was driving fairly confidently.

[Miztiki]

Good morning.

 

Gawds no, I didn't mean attempting to work Boy myself on the cattle or ducks. I meant is there something I could try with him from our side of the fence, or with him on leash at the park, that would tell me if this is something worth pursuing. Maybe something specific I should look for? He shows lots of interest in both but I don't allow him to just run up to the fence, or lunge on the leash, and act like an idiot.

 

I'm sure he'll show a sustained interest in the sheep but that's all I can guess.

 

They said I could come some weekend in June (they're busy the rest of May). Do you think I should do it? Or find someone else?

 

Here's their website: Beret Farms

 

Thanks, and glad to know that even future herding dogs can show no herding ability their first time. I just want to see if seeing sheep brings out the BC in him. Of course, if it does and he likes it, then I'll have to oblige!

[ness_bc]

Well I thought I would add my experience with a dog that I suspected to have minimal herding ability. A BC that wasn't bred at all for herding. Well we had a bit of fun (so much so we had to go back a second time). Well she had fun, can't say the same for the sheep. First time in the pen both times it was total chaos - sheep and dog flying everywhere. By the third time in on the first session we were able to start working on teaching her to circle in both directions. Last two times we went to the come and try herding days she just chased the sheep - but that was only 1 5 minute session each time. I am sure if she had the opportunity to work sheep more regularly then she may settle out of this behaviour. Its because they are to "novel" to her every time we have been. She prefers to chase at the moment with occasional glimpses of herding.

 

So my thoughts are don't worry about being embarassed and go and have a nice day out.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Looks like they don't do conformation. They seem to do mostly ASCA working trials. That's probably fine for Boydon - after all, you don't know what all he is, exactly. You should have fun - and $35 is less than the cost of the average lesson.

[prosperia]

"Most dogs, when first exposed to sheep fall somewhere in the chase and be nutty, eat sheep doo doo, or don't somewhere in between there."

 

Well, I know what Jenna will probably be doing.

Scarf,scarf. Munch,munch,munch. Mmmmm,yum.

 

Sounds exciting. I cant wait to hear how he did.

[amc]

Miztiki,

 

the deShazos are great working dog folks. By all means take Boyden out there. Keep your ears open and you will learn a lot.

 

Good luck, and give us a full report!

 

Amy

[Eileen Stein]

The things they said sound fine to me, Miztiki. That's what I'd be looking for in a beginning dog, although I wouldn't write the dog off if I didn't see it all on the first exposure.

 

I must say reading that AHBA stuff brings home to me yet again how absolutely stupid the idea of a test/title for herding instinct is. The very concept is just downright bizarre.

 

But if I were you I would certainly take Boy to these folks for a session on sheep or goats and an informal evaluation. The fact that Amy knows and vouches for them makes it a no-brainer. Definitely go, and let us know how it turns out.

[Miztiki]

Well, we went this morning and had a good time! You can read the details, see pictures, and view two short videos. Try not to laugh too hard!

 

She said he has no natural herding instincts and I would agree. She said he could probably learn and I agree with that too. I'm interested in anything you care to comment on!

[Eileen Stein]

I looked at the pictures and the video. Many a dog starts out just chasing with his tail up (as Boy is doing here), or ignoring the sheep, or doing both alternately, but gets the idea with more exposure. When he's chasing the sheep round and round the handler like this, he has to widen out if he's to get them stopped and therefore get the sheep between him and the handler. A lot of perfectly good dogs don't realize this in all the excitement of their first couple of sessions. Boy isn't realizing it here, although he is responding to the handler's attempts to widen him out with her rake. He responded by turning when she blocked him, too, though it looks as if he definitely prefers his "come by" side. A certain amount of onesidedness is also not uncommon at first.

 

While it's probably not likely that Boy will make a useful working dog, since he's a mix, you can't rule it out from what we're seeing here. I've seen many first sessions just like this, believe me, and I'm sure the trainer here has too. But it's good that you don't have your hopes pinned on this, and if it were me I wouldn't pursue it more than a couple more times if he doesn't seem to be getting more serious and showing more innate ability. But mainly that's because I can't help looking at things from the sheep's POV. It's not as if you NEED a dog to help you with your sheep, so there's no point in doing it if he's not as well suited to it as he is to other activities.

 

Anyway, I certainly didn't laugh, and I'm glad you gave him his tryout. Looks like he had a good time, and you know more now than you did this morning. That's a good result.

[Miztiki]

Thanks Eileen. It was fun but I doubt I will take him back until we get our own sheep, hopefully next year. Unless I make it to NC and Rebecca needs some comic relief.

 

Don't know if you caught it, but at the end of one of the vid clips he runs past and quickly glances at me as if to say, "look at me mom, I'm chasing sheep!". Priceless!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

We're always up for a visit (though right now our house looks like a bomb hit it with the massive remodeling effort going on). I've worked dogs of all shapes and sizes - Boyden doesn't look nearly as laughable as the Cocker mix one guy brought out once and he certainly doesn't look anywhere as scary as the Akita/Dalmation mix that "worked" here once.

 

One of the things the AHBA folks likes to see is stock used to dogs with a less, let us say, sublte approach. I told my new friend with whom I'm working, about the Akita mix and she said, yup, shouldn't be any problem for the Bouvs . . . lol

 

Anyway, feel free to contact us if you do happen to end up through here. That goes for anyone. We've got a little place but the sheep are pretty nice. Heavier than the usual southern variety but not nasty. And of course come even if you don't have a dog! (c:

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Thanks Rebecca,

 

I may be stuck in the Cal Desert right now but I WILL be in NC some day. I'll be calling on you for sheep and dog advise. I promise, I swear! It's my mantra! (sorry all the sand is making sheep raising seem more like a dream and less of a reality than it was just a month ago.)

[J.E.S]

I may be stuck in the Cal Desert right now but I WILL be in NC some day. I'll be calling on you for sheep and dog advise. I promise, I swear! It's my mantra! (sorry all the sand is making sheep raising seem more like a dream and less of a reality than it was just a month ago.)

I live in the Cal desert and raise sheep and train herding dogs. It can be done. Have to work early in the morning or late in the evening tho because of the heat. Some green grass would sure be nice tho.

 

Joan

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Hi Joan,

 

Do you know of anyone who offers lessons on Sheep?

I'm in 29 Palms. Also (hate to invite myself over) but I'd like to see just how you manage out here. I thought having sheep was not possible without nice pasture.

 

Thanks,

Edit: taking this to another post