Help! Orijins made the allergies worse.

[janeinthemtns]

Antonia is doing very well now. She is an expert cow herd - just naturally gets in the right place. But her food allergies have gotten much worse. When I first got her she was about a year old. Very tiny. She was terrified of everything. I started her on Wellness food. After a month I realized she was having allergy problems. Got her Go Natural Salmon. That was better, but hard to get. Then I got Wellness Salmon. Determined that chicken and pork were real trouble for her. Next I tried Wellness salmon,lamb,barley. Gradually over 3 months, it all got worse. Her hips started bothering her again. I got some probiotics. I got some Lubriflex - this had worked initially while I was looking at different food. Last week she began to cry at night again, scratch ears, etc. Still zipping around the ranch, but not as happy as before. I stopped all the dog food and fed her quinoa and potatoes - that's all I had in the house that she would eat. STopped the supplements. She has nothing to eat but the Orijins Fish, Seemed to get better. I ordered Orijins fish. The nutrients looked great. Now it's all getting much worse. She will not eat sweet potatoes or much besides dog food. I have not found a treat she likes without pork and chicken in it.

 

What should I try now?? If meat is the problem, and grains are not digestible, what do I need to do? It seems like she might be developing a hot spot, but might just be a scratch from a wire fence.

 

Thanks for any advice. I have terrible allergies including chemical sensitivity so I am familiar with rotating food in and out. But what? I can order exotic raw food if I need to, but money is an issue so don't want to waste more - like $77.00 sacks of dog food. Now it's winter so I have time to cook for her, and get organized with what she needs.

 

Thanks, Jane

[timberviewfarm]

I too have dogs with food allergies. Both of my dogs got very thin and always had runny poo. I have tried several different foods along with some supplements. The older of the 2 dogs has kind of grown out of her allergies and can handle some other types of food (not large quantities).

 

Here is what I did. I found that they did best on "fish" food. So I started playing around with the different brands to see what worked. I just got small bags and was able to tell within a few days if it was going to work. I think every dog is different so no one can tell you exactly what to feed. I started out letting them both fast for 24 hrs, then adding in oatmeal and then back to food.

 

I also add pro/prebiotics to the younger dogs food as well as prozyme enzyme supplement. This was on the recommendation of my vet who thinks that if you can get their systems to stable out then you can stop the supplements.

 

Just my experience and it totally may not work for anyone else!

[WildFlower]

I second finding a good probiotic and digestive enzyme.

 

I also like fish based foods. Devon had a sensitive digestive system when he was younger and I fed Fromm's Whitefish. Which I highly recommend if it is an option for you.

 

I also would like to suggest Seacure. (Here is just a list that came up from my yahoo search.)

 

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7m.kxghNNwEBnC9XNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGFvAzEEZnIDeWZwLXQtNzAxBGhvc3RwdmlkA25XdHpIRW9HN3Y1aC4ueU5TODJuLndaQURDbEJTazBJeHFRQUJSSksEbl9ncHMDMwRuX3ZwcwMxBG9yaWdpbgNzcnAEcXVlcnkDU2VhY3VyZSBmb3IgZG9ncwRzYW8DMQR2dGVzdGlkA01TWTAwNw--?p=Seacure+for+dogs&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701

 

I used it after my Daisy at some fertilizer off the sidewalk. (I of course took her to the vet after that happened.) But after the incident she had a horrible time digesting any type of food - I think the fertilizer injured some of her digestive tract. I gave her this with her meals for about three months and she has been great ever since. I also gave it to Devon with his sensitivity issues and shared some with my mom for her BC that had a hard to shake of giardia to supplement the treatment that the vet prescribed.

 

I hope that you are able to find something to help Antonia!

[Sue R]

*Disclaimer* I am not a raw feeder.

 

Have you tried a simple raw diet, not a purchased raw diet? Just raw meaty bones, or meat and bones, plus some form of veggie (like pumpkin, squash, sweet potato, beans) to provide some fiber, and a supplement (once you may have found a combination of meat and veggie that works for your dog) to round out the diet?

 

Since I am not a raw feeder, I am not familiar with all the ins-and-outs of raw feeding, but am wondering if a very simple raw diet might not help you eliminate *something* that is in prepared kibbles that is not working for her.

 

Or, have you been able to try something like a very simple kibble that is made to avoid allergens, like California Natural? Their formulations are made of limited ingredients, with the idea of avoiding potential allergens.

 

The other, and more worrisome aspect, is wondering if there is simply something she is allergic to that can't be avoided in her environment that might be exacerbated by her diet.

 

My Celt has had some allergy issues over the years, thankfully, not as serious as your poor dog's. This summer, we tried an antihistamine from the vet (which helped) and noticed that his symptoms declined over several months to the point where he no longer scratches at all and is off the medication.

 

Sometimes an irritation causes scratching, scratching makes the problem worse, and it becomes an endless cycle of irritation, scratching, increased irritation and inflamation - and some animals may be helped by a medication that helps break that cycle and allow healing.

 

Very best wishes for you in dealing with this - she must be miserable and I feel for her (and you).

[Carson Crazies]

The Orijens formulas have a LOT of ingredients. If your dog does indeed have food sensitivities foods with many different ingredients may be difficult to handle. Why not try something like California Naturals - maybe try the Herring and Sweet Potato or the Lamb & Rice? Dogs DO digest grains, by the way, so if your dog doesn't appear to have a grain allergy I wouldn't necessarily avoid grains specifically. One problem you're going to run into is that if the dog has joint problems (arthritis or HD) then grains in a food will contribute to inflammation. It looks like California Natural has put out some new grain free formulas - what about the Venison one? I think it's something like Venison, Peas, and Potatoes. And yes, I know that Natura has been bought out by P&G. However, at this stage in the game I would still personally try these foods.

 

ETA- I see Sue has suggested CA Nat but I'm going to leave this anyway.

[urge to herd]

Your vet may have a product that has the proteins reduced to non allergenic molecules - I think Purina makes it. Maybe try that?

 

And I agree with what Sue says, try raw food only for a while. Allergies can be very, very difficult to pin down, as they do sometimes morph in new ways. Good luck with your girl.

 

Ruth

[2 Devils]

The food could be part of the problem but so could the different supplements you are adding. Between grain allergies, gluten allergies, certain meat allergies, etc... you have to review the supplement ingredients just like you would for food.

 

1. You could also look at trying an elimination diet with your dog. You should be able to get info from your vet or even online.

 

2. Change foods to a food with just a couple ingredients

 

3. Try a raw diet

[Lewie'sMom]

It may be time to spend the money for an allergy test, if you haven't already. That was going to be my next step if Lewie's biopsy came back inconclusive. A vet tech told me they run about $250, but it would be well worth the money especially when you're feeding $77 bags of Orijen Fish. That's what I feed Lewie, by the way. I have to go way out of my way to purchase it, but from what I've read, it's worth it and he does well on it.

 

Good luck. We all know how frustrating and concerning it is when our beloved BCs aren't well.

[The Good Shepherd]

I second (or third?) giving RAW a try!

 

(PS my entire pack "does" RAW )

[in2adventure]

I would try raw. This way you know for sure what is going into your dog. It could be almost anything causing the allergies. There are several brands out there that sell a minimal ingrediant food too. If Go Naturals worked before, try that one again. I feed Go and order it online when not living in WY. www.k9cuisine.com sells almost every brand of food on the market and they have free shipping over $50. NOT real hard to make that total A nice perk for the site too is, they will send you up to 10 free samples of food and treats of your choice with every order.

 

Go Naturals now makes a duck formula too. I rotate through the different flavors, but mine don't have the chicken issue. Another brand to try, if raw seems too icky, is ZiwiPeak. They are VERY pricey, but it's made with venison and has no other ingredients.

 

Good luck!

[MyTDogs]

True food allergies are very rare. Studies have shown that maybe 10% of itchy scratchy dogs are food allergic. Instead of running around, jumping through hoops to get a diet that works you should invest the $ and the time to see a good dermatologist [ACVD.org]. They can methodically go thru the issues with you to determine the cause of your dog's problems instead of playing the guessing game. Those $77 bags of food should be warrantied by the mfg so the store should be able to take them back do an exchange for you.

 

 

Good luck!

[sixx]

Seek eats the 6-fish orijen, it's the only one that has calmed her allergies. No more scratching

 

You mentioned you use probiotics. You should start the pup on prebiotics as well, they help the probiotics, etc. There is a brand called In Clover-Optagest that is about $40 for a big bottle. It last months. It's a powder that you sprinkle on the food, only 1/4 tsp. a day. Works great! http://www.inclover.com/optagest.html

Also a good fish oil to help the skin/coat. Dry skin on pups can be very itchy... just ask Seek.

 

Maybe you could try a dehydrated raw diet. Seek loves that food soooo much, but I found out I was feeding her food that contained one of her allergies... I didn't know at the time. I switched to a different meat - Brushtail - and she was fine. It's pretty expensive though!

 

Also, I had Seek tested for her allergies. It cost about $200 and it was so worth it!! It has saved me a lot of stress and money and time to know what they were, as well as help my pup feel a lot better!

 

Good luck

[Jedismom]

I just wanted to second the Optagest. I just started Cadi on it, and for the first time I've been able to switch her foods without stomach upset. She'd been stuck eating Solid Gold Lamb and nothing else for the the longest time.

[janeinthemtns]

Thank you all so much for your thought an effort. I was nearly frantic yesterday - well, just plain frantic. GOOD NEWS! I hope it lasts. Antonia is much better today. No ear scratching, no crying. There is nothing worse than hearing her crying in the night while she is scratching or miserable. I did see her standing and scratching her belly with a hind leg once today. When she does this her little tongue starts going in and out really fast. I think this is mostly odd ball BC behavior than anything else.

 

I chose the Origen because it has so many whole food nutrients in it. That was dumb. I have life threatening allergies myself and have had to do many rotation and elimination diets. I think the raw food diet sounds like the best and I would already be feeding it, but she has reacted immediately and definitely to chicken, pork and, lately, beef. I am going to print out all your suggestions in case my computer dies again.

 

Antonia had a very hard start on a big cattle ranch in Colorado. She was a little less than a year old when I adopted her from San Luis Valley shelter. When I met her she streaked into the room and dove under my chair. That was it. So little! She was so afraid of a leash that she was impossible to move off the ground. The first few days I had her we spent a lot of time in the yard. Just sitting with her. She would wrap her front legs around my neck from the back and hold on. After about a week, she came around and gave me the BC bead from about 6" from my eyes. She was terrified. I did some investigating and discovered she had been on a big working cattle ranch with a bunch of Mexican hired guys. Just from watching her here, I could tell they had been running her down on horses and throwing ropes at her. They had a bunch of working BC's and I am sure it was terrifying to be set loose with them. Cattle on big ranches are pretty wild sometimes, too. She was terrified of the horses, but immediately and expertly moved 12 cow/calf pairs without ever pushing them out of a slow walk. She was shocked and so proud of herself when she got a lot of praise. Several times she left the meadows and streaked back to the house. I didn't tell her she was naughty for about 3 months. I figured she felt safe at the house. She still does. She has never left the yard without me.

 

She was terrified of the dogs on the surrounding ranches. But one day the guy who puts up hay here brought two BCs with him. Antonia was overjoyed and took off to see them. Of course, they wanted to kill her. She made a big arc and came home all excited and happy. Signs of life!

 

She is still terrified of the diesel pickup. I figure she must have been thrown in the back of one a lot of times. I don't know if you have ever seen Mexicans work horses, but it is horrendous - Texas rowel spurs, bull whips and vicious bits. It must be worse with dogs. After about 6 months she started throwing her toys at me from across the room if I didn't get moving. Good dog. She likes to ride around in the pickup and attracts tourists from England in the summer. They think she is mad at them, but she is smiling. Big grin. Sometimes she will sing to the radio which amuses people on the freeway. Also loves Merle Haggard! Puts her nose up in the air and sings away. She is very useful in the winter herding the elk and deer out of here. Also, excellent guard dog. After many months, she started helping me move the horses from one meadow into another. She always gets in the right spots to work with me. She will lie down 300 feet away if I ask her to, and lie down every twenty feet coming towards me if I give her a hand signal. She will not run out on her own to gather anything, but gradually her confidence is improving. Last summer she got after a bull that was mean and did a good job moving him by herself. I am thrilled to have her.

 

My dog is with me 24/7 on and off the ranch. She is my best friend, so thank you all very much for your help. I am going to give it a few days to see how the Orijen works. She only eats about 2 cups of food a day, so it's not that bad. I think she may get sensitized to anything she eats for a long time, so I plan to rotate the good ones. I will try all the suggestions. Certain combinations of food bother me, so it may be the same with her. Gradually, the Wellness Lamb, Salmon, barley made her worse. I think gluten and grain free is the best. However Go Natural Salmon and Oats worked very well. I think I tried the Wellness because it was much less expensive.

 

All your dogs are beautiful. Still trying to figure out how to post photos.

 

Thanks so much, Jane in Tierra Amarilla NM

[sea4th]

Glad you hit on something that seems to be working. Let's hope it keeps working. In case it doesn't, I second the suggestion of a vet dermatologist. Also, for a case like yours, I also agree with a raw diet. If I were to go the raw route, the ONLY premade raw I'd go with is Morigins and supplement with bones. Morigins is pricey, therefore I can't afford to feed it to my crew, but if I had a special case, I'd certainly give it a try. If you look on their website, the link to "Pete's Story" is mine. But if you found something that's working, I'd stick with it unless things go haywire again.

 

Good luck to you and glad you found this girl. She's lucky to have found you too!

[janeinthemtns]

Antonia was a beserk ball of energy today from before day break. Throwing her toys all around in a happy state. She ran and ran in 6" of snow until I worried about her. She ran off into the meadows by herself (a little unusual) and bounced around until I went out there with her. She chased off a couple of escaped cows that were tearing into the hay and almost gripped! She kept looking at me to be sure she was doing the right thing. Of course, I was standing there clapping which made her spring around even more, then get right down to business. I think a lot of her timidity is due to feeling bad.

 

It is possible she will become sensitized to any food I give her within a couple of months. That's what happens to me. In two months without problems, I am going to gradually switch brands of food. Or I might try to introduce some raw food. I don't have a big freezer so that might be tough. I don't live within a 100 miles of a place to buy decent raw food. I need to figure out if the raw red meat was a problem for her or just pork and chicken. Whatever I do, I'm going to do it before any trouble starts. Otherwise I won't know what's going on again.

 

I'm going to watch her carefully tomorrow for signs of worse stiffness. She's really pooped right now. Thank you for all your great comments and suggestions!

 

Jane and Antonia

[janeinthemtns]

Glad you hit on something that seems to be working. Let's hope it keeps working. In case it doesn't, I second the suggestion of a vet dermatologist. Also, for a case like yours, I also agree with a raw diet. If I were to go the raw route, the ONLY premade raw I'd go with is Morigins and supplement with bones. Morigins is pricey, therefore I can't afford to feed it to my crew, but if I had a special case, I'd certainly give it a try. If you look on their website, the link to "Pete's Story" is mine. But if you found something that's working, I'd stick with it unless things go haywire again.

 

Good luck to you and glad you found this girl. She's lucky to have found you too!

 

Thanks for your nice post. I wanted to tell you that somehow I read through your For Love of Pete page on dogster in June, 2009, when my BC cross died. I was so distraught that I thought I was going to go right with her. I could not believe it when I saw For the Love of Pete here. There are thousands of dogs over there at dogster. That is the last time I am going to have only one dog. I was going to buy a BC puppy, but then I found all the homeless BCs stuck in shelters. Looking at them was almost worse than loosing my dog! But no one would let me have one. I gave the rescue people the local vet as a reference and a woman I know who has a rescue operation near here. Still wouldn't consider me. It was like they thought a Border Collie shouldn't be on a ranch! After 3 months of trying, I went up to San Luis Valley and found Antonia in a private shelter.

 

Next summer when the weather gets warm, I am going to start looking for a BC pup in a shelter. I would like to have a pup, but will probably come home with the first one I see no matter what age. I wish I could bring them all home. At least it's better to bring home dogs than horses. I do that too.

[Jedismom]

I remember when you had posted about your frustration in trying to find a bc. I'm glad you found her finally. You sound like a great mom.

[janeinthemtns]

Thank you for your post. I know a lot of dogs and other critters are mistreated on ranches, but some of us are still living the life and care more for our animals than ourselves really. When I was working on ranches I used to see the most awful things. Maybe if the people in charge of deciding who qualified for consideration for a rescue BC could evaluate the condition of stock on ranches, they could get comfortable. That is why I always included information and photos of my horses - they all look like giant sheared beavers due to $$$ diet and constant care. That said, a working ranch is probably not going to have time or energy to rehabilitate a BC who has ended up in a shelter because of a problem.

 

Arielle at the BC rescue in Santa Fe was considering doing some training in this area. Don't know what happened to that plan - no time!

 

I remember especially a dog who was much less than a year old who had been dumped at a shelter in Colorado because she "wouldn't work." This is what happened to Antonia. Working cattle is a speedy, scary thing to a baby dog that involves running for miles every hour of the day sometimes without water in summer heat. Then they are required to face down mad cattle in pens for hours. I have seen that a lot of times. Often times I would pull up and go back to look for a new dog and get in trouble for doing it. Sometimes a few words of encouragement was all it took for the pup to keep on keeping on.

 

It was interesting that some of these dogs and standoffish horses, too, would be greeting me and visiting while ignoring everyone else. What a cooincidence. I got in trouble for that, too. If you give a horse or dog a handful of water when they are pooped, they never forget it.

[Sue R]

Sounds like you have a very good heart, and it's too bad that there are many who don't, in all walks of life.

[MagicGirl]

I vote for Allergy testing. I was amazed at all the things that Magic was allergic to. I thought I was feeding her high quality food (Solid Gold Bark at the Moon). When we got the test back she was allergic to 22 different things, some food and some enviromental. Of all things she was allergic to carrots, peas and flax, all that were in her food. She is also allergic to oats which alot of dog treats are made of.

 

What was nice is that with the test came a list of foods that she should be able to tolerate. We went with Wellness Simple. It has only 1 Protein and 1 carb in the ingredients, not alot of the extra un-needed stuff.

 

This has helped alot. She still has several enviromental allergies that the only way to combat is to keep her away from the oak and grass pollens when they are at their worse. I wash her bedding at least once a week and bath her just as often. We use an antibiotic shampoo when she is at her worse and no shampoos with oatmeal, which alot of people use to help sooth itchy dogs.

 

Although the allergy tests are not a cure they sure are great knowlegde for keep them under control.

[janeinthemtns]

I am back to read through the raw posts again and figure it out. Antonia did OK on Orijens fish, but she began to gain weight. I read that some people have trouble with weight and orijens. I got her Wellness Core fish. As soon as she was getting mostly Wellness Core when I was gradually switching, she started acting not right again. Scratching, etc. Not crying yet though.

Today I was brushing her and noticed the hot spot is back and the flaky area is 3" now. I have clipped off all the hair and I am going to wash with a week betadine solution. I know betadine kills new cells. Just to clean up. Looks like it was not gone at all - just calmed down a little.

 

Has anyone tried Schreiners Herbal antiseptic on these things? I use it on my horses. Also I use goldenseal compresses on sunburned horse noses and all other trouble. Works like magic and it's also anti fungal. I think I will grind up some goldenseal root with calendula flowers. They are both anti bacterial and anti fungal.

 

I use Eskimo 3 fish oil for myself. It is never rancid and I have been giving Antonia 1t. divided between her 2 little meals. The Orijens has probiotics in it. I would like to be taking Seacure myself, but it is astronomically expensive. Maybe during summer when the horses are turned out. I also have Probiotic Pearls which are coated so they make it through stomach acid into the intestines. I don't know if dogs need the same probios that humans use. More research.

 

Any opinions? I have never had skin trouble before with any of my dogs.

 

How much meat by weight either on or off bones is recommended? Having worked in the cattle industry, I'm not very excited about feeding beef from supermarkets - full of hormones, grain fed, etc. If I knew how much by weight to feed, I would know if I could afford grass fed beef with different parts especially for dogs. There is an outfit in Missouri owned by a vet offering this. If I just go to the local market should I buy a pot roast and chop it up? I think they have some big knuckle bones also, but never have much meat on them. What about oxtails? Should I cut off all the fat? Maybe I will start with one thing and add to it some sweet potato?

 

 

Thanks for all opinions.

Jane in New Mexico.

[Jedismom]

Here is a good basic informational article about raw feeding. Hope it helps her. Let us know.

 

http://www.justamere.com/newsletter/rawfeeding.asp

[Chantal]

Having worked in the cattle industry, I'm not very excited about feeding beef from supermarkets - full of hormones, grain fed, etc.

 

 

Wouldn't the protein source in most dog food come from the same supermarket style beef?

 

As for raw feeding, I really like the community at dog food chat over in the raw section, http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/ I got lots of great information there and people are so helpful! I think I must of read every online content on raw and it was just SOOO much info. When I went over to that group, they really helped me wade through a lot of the crap. They feed prey model style.

[janeinthemtns]

Antonia has been eating beans, rice, coconut milk and tumeric for 2 days and is hopping around the house showing her teeth in a big smile. Also glancing hopefully at her bowl. I have not seen that before. Tumeric is the most effective antiinflamatory there is. I looked at some photos of hot spots on the internet and now I don't feel so bad. She has one on her hip, but the skin is not broken. Don't people check their dogs or what? It is a lot better now with goldenseal/calendula compresses. I am going to keep up with the beans and rice for a week, then start adding things in one at a time for a week to find all the problems. I met someone last year whose dog was allergic to an enzyme in meat. I might not be able to feed her meat, but will try egg, etc. Also giving her 1 gram of Eskimo 3 fish oil liquid and a probiotic pill.