Getting a dog to grip in a pressure situation

[kimkathan]

I have a 2yo who will not, under any circumstances right now, grip a sheep when she is in a corner or being put into a situation where a dog would otherwise grip. Today, while moving the sheep out of the barn into the pasture, a lamb got behind her and of course mom went after the dog. The dog will bob and try to move out of the way, but in this situation, she got pushed into a corner, and was knocked down before I could get to her. She wasn't hurt at all, and continued to finish moving the sheep. I was extreamly suprised to see this, as everyone I have talked to about this around here said that when she was to be put in this situation that "she would know what to do". She will go in for cheep shots while working the sheep (high flank grips) but this is lessining as get gets more confident. However if a sheep stands her off, she'll circle around behind it and bite another sheep that wasn't doing anything. When working Cattle, she will head and heel with no problem. It seems to be this problem is only with sheep. I don't know if it is the eye level thing or what. Any way, I'd like to get her to be able to grip when necessary, so that if she is ever in a situation worse than today, she'll be able to get out of it.

[Pipedream Farm]

I was hoping someone with a few more ideas than me would reply. I'll give it a shot. First of all, don't yell at her for grippiing --even the cheap shots. I taught my first dog to never grip because I was all over her for any little grip. I was worried about being dq'd on the trial field and missed seeing the big picture. Now I have an uphill battle anytime I want her to grip. Next, get the sheep in an enclosed area (in a sturdy pen or stall. Have your dog put them in a corner fairly tightly. You may need to walk with her to sort of give her confidence and back her up. Have her hold them in the corner while you go to the sheep and hold one by the head. Be sure you're braced well and the sheep can't get away. Also make sure you have a good enough hold of the sheep to prevent it from head-butting your dog. Try to encourage your dog to be a little wild and crazy. Wave the sheep's face around a bit and try to encourage her to bite it. Try to say a particular command with this if you can get her to do it. If she seems too intimidated to grip on the nose, see if you can get her to grip a sheep's back leg for now --hold the back leg up a little to try to get her excited about it. Be sure to praise her any time she grips. After you do this, let her drive them a little in the open. Stay very upbeat and don't worry about it if she gets a little silly. You're just trying to keep her confidence level up high. This isn't something to way overdo --you don't want to create a monster. This can be very stressfull for a lot of dogs, so keep it short. I'd also recommend wearing gloves and don't yell if your dog accidentally bites your hand! Speaking from personal experience on that one. Maybe someone else will have more to add for you.

Renee

[kimkathan]

thanks for the advice. I have been putting her in a small stall with a few sheep in a corner. She'll curl her lip almost in a "smile " like fashion and bob around alot, but still no contact. I havent't tried the hind leg approach, maybe that would get her turned on a bit. Now when you say not to yell at her for the cheep shots, what do you think about some sort of correction. In the beginning I used to get after her a bit, but then she was going in for a take down at times. Now I usually give her a growl, or a low what are you doing, and if I can see it happen BEFORE it happens all the better, I don't want to take the grip out of her, but don't want her to think it's OK either.

[Pipedream Farm]

It's all realative. Certainly, if she's going in for the kill, you've got to put a stop to it. What I'm talking about are just minor nips because of lack of confidence about what she's doing or the tension got too much for her. If you feel you need to correct it, just don't go overboard with it. As you stated earlier, a lot of these types of grips go away with confidence.

Renee

[NancyO]

I try and get a wool lamb that is about 6 months old that is going to be sent to market. The wool gives you something to help hold onto and the size makes it so the sheep isn't took big to keep hold of. Depending on how strong you are, you might want to tie a sheep to the fence, with it's head pulled down (as it would look if it was going to attack your dog). I've also done it with holding the sheep's head between my legs, but ended up being bit on the calf when the dog came around for a bite. I now have a grafting head gate and am going to give that a try for holding the sheep.

 

This is what I've been told about teaching a grip. When teaching the grip, you want to get the dog excited by slapping the nose of the sheep, don't worry if the dog bites the neck or ear, you just want the dog to bite something. If the dog is always coming around to the rear to bite, push the head of the sheep towards the dogs face, you can give a very very soft heh, if the dog keeps going to bite the rear, but you don't want to discourage the dog too much. Decide on what your grip command will be and say it in an excited voice. If possible, after the dog has bit a few times, let the sheep back away from the dog. Which is the reponse you want to accomplish.

 

However if a sheep stands her off, she'll circle around behind

for this problem, you would need to be near the dog, stop it from moving around behind the sheep or even to the side, and walk with the dog, with you moving the reluctant sheep if necessary, even whacking it on the nose if needed to turn it. With you walking with the dog and moving the sheep,the dog will think it is doing it and will gain confidence. This will teach the dog to walk directly into pressure. Do you have a problem on the drive with the dog flanking back and forth alot?

 

Nancy O

[Guest carol campion]

With the USBCHA issues being in the spotlight, I have been staying abreast with the general thinking by checking in with the lists. I was greatly appalled to read this particular thread and see information that was being disseminated to people and was additionally upset to see that no one commented on its content, so much so, that I have joined solely for this purpose.

 

Someone had asked for help getting a dog to grip. The last response from someone is so cruel sounding that it breaks my heart to read it.

 

We are supposed to be the care takers of the sheep, using the dogs to help us. God help if any animal rights people decide to take the list to task. They would be right based on the advice given out in this particular post. And part of the problem I see is that this is being told to possible beginner as well as a large captive audience with varying levels of ability ?people who you may not know. You have no idea how they will implement the advice running the risk of them being even crueler to the stock than you intend for the sake of "building a dog's confidence".

 

I don't know how you all feel about this but I was appalled that people thought it OK. Read it as an objective observer and try to see how it sounds.

 

I have indicated particularly offensive phrases anyone who truly cares for livestock would object to?offensive because they are giving advice based on the trainer's experience with being bitten by the dog?showing clearly how painful this is. And tying or holding a sheep to force it to experience this is cruel. I also find it heartless that the idea of using a market lamb makes it OK?one that will be killed anyway??

 

<< get a wool lamb that is about 6 months old that is going to be sent to market. .......

 

you might want to tie a sheep to the fence, with it's head pulled down......

 

I've also done it with holding the sheep's head between my legs, but ended up being bit on the calf when the dog came around for a bite.

 

I now have a grafting head gate and am going to give that a try for holding the sheep.

 

...get the dog excited by slapping the nose of the sheep, don't worry if the dog bites the neck or ear, you just want the dog to bite something....

 

push the head of the sheep towards the dogs face...

 

after the dog has bit a few times, let the sheep back away from the dog. >>

 

To me, this is NOT good dog training. It is NOT good shepherding. It is NOT sound economics. An injured sheep that may require medical help and/or antibiotics is costing the operation money. When you take on the responsibility of shepherding livestock, you are taking on the responsibility of caring for living creatures. These are not play toys for our dogs and should not be treated as such.

 

This sport of trialling is replicating a way of life?that of the shepherd. The shepherd protects his flock. Overseas they just get rid of the dog that doesn't have enough. It seems to be a popular idea that teaching a dog to grip will give it power. Anyone that knows stock knows that a dog that has to grip is usually scrutinized pretty heavily by the stock and stock usually won't turn because they don't trust that kind of dog. Gripping is not power. Power is the ability to move the sheep without gripping. They turn readily off a dog with true determination and power?not just the short fuse. If you are not careful, you can end up teaching the dog to grip whenever it meets up with any resistance from sheep. I have seen seen top dogs sold on account of the problems with gripping in unwanted situations on the trial field that arose from teaching it this way. It may not really give the dog more power?just a short fuse.

 

A 2 year old is not often mature enough to take on the task of countering a protective ewe with her lamb. I'd say from the original post, you have put her in a situation where you have undermined her confidence by asking her to do something that was well over her head. My advice is wait to use this dog to move difficult sheep or sell her on. Ewes with lambs are particularly difficult.

[kimkathan]

I didn't PUT her in the situation where I wanted her to work the ewe, she just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (actually it was the dumb lamb that walked behind the dog, and mom was just doing what she should do.) I just don't want my dog to ever be in this position where she needs to be able to get out of harms way for what ever reason, and not have the "tools" avaible to her. In general she's able to move the group of ewes and lambs from one paddock to another for feeding and such, and does so without any problems. There have been a couple of times, not this bad though, that she's been in a position similar, that I just can't get to her in time before something happens. Like I said, I don't want her just gripping for the sake of something easier, but rather as a form of "protection" when she can't get out of the way. She hasen't been really turned off by this, and has been working outside without any problems. I too don't agree with the "sacrificial lamb" approach, I was just wondering if there were any way of building her up to be confident enough with herself, she'll curl her lips, but that's about the extent of it, and the sheep could care less about looks.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I also have a two year old that was having some issues with aggressive ewes. I have two that are real dog eaters, however they are also my best, always twinning ewes- here to stay. Personally, I think the situation you described (dog gets knocked down by ewe but still gets up and manages to move them) is not so bad. She's still young, she may learn to defend herself or to get out of the way and try another approach. If I were you, I would be far more concerned if she got knocked down and wanted to quit. Teaching her to grip in a situation where she is already handling it in her own way (at least she is handling it, and not giving up) may create more problems than it solves. My own Jane, who is my two year old, had an adjustment period this year when I had all my ewes lamb as opposed to the past when I just had one or two lamb at a time (difference was I finally had a ram on the premises). So she had to deal with several more testy ewes than she was used to dealing with, and with my super-aggressive ewes she was backing off too much at first. But I got in there and helped her, if she got bullied to hard, I stepped in there (a little ewe whacking with the stick was in order sometimes, but not too much of course) and she got better and more confident as the ewes got with the program and she realized she was allowed to get into it with them if needed. She still is more likely to do a body slam than a grip, but she will grip now if the ewe tries to butt her or won't move.

 

On the holding a sheep thing- I did it with one of my first dogs. I regret it every time I use her to catch and/or doctor sheep. If I can't pay attention to her, she will fly in and grip anything that points a nose her way. I taught her that at a very impressionable age and I wish I could go back and undo the damage. This dog always had an effective heading grip and didn't need any encouragement to do it- for the life of me I can't remember why I used that method or for what purpose. My current dogs never were exposed to that, and I can do tasks where they hold sheep and I can forget about them and do what needs to be done.

 

J. Green

Las Vegas,NV

smokinjbc@msn.com

[Guest carol campion]

Kim

 

I am not at all critical of you and your situation. Let me rephrase and rather than say you PUT your dog in that situation, say you allowed you dog to be in a compromising situation. When you learn more about how sheep think, you will have better responses to situations and know what is compromising and know to avoid it.

 

When I have protective ewes with lambs, I never ask a young dog to bring them out of a tight corner or enclosed area when there is a possibility that the dog can get smacked or charged. Sheep feel very threatened by close proximity and in tight areas, the dog has no choice but be too close to the sheep for comfort. Mothers will then often charge a dog. That is their instinct?to protect. In that situation, I get MYSELF into the corner WITH the dog either behind me or on a line and drive the sheep out. If the ewe turns, you are there to help defend your dog rather than leaving the dog to do this on its own when it might be clueless as to how to do that.

 

In some dogs, once they are knocked and especially when they are taken by surprise or hurt, they have a hard time ever getting in a sheep's face again. Why should they want to? They know they can get hurt from first hand experience. It takes some dogs a long time to build their confidence again. And teaching some helpless lamb a lesson when it isn't the sheep that caused the problem, is not teaching the real culprit respect for the dog.

 

I would not ask my dog to deal with this sheep or any that charge her and leave her to work in the open where she is comfortable til hopefully the memory becomes a thing of the past. Then start teaching her to walk into pressure when the ewes have no lambs and the sheep are more likely to turn from her.

 

She may never be the gritty dog you want. Then it is a handling issue to teach her to work the sheep in such a way that they never know she couldn't move them if push came to shove. Many dogs that don't have that grit can do well on tough sheep, but are handled by people that know how to keep them from being compromised?keep them far enough off the sheep that the sheep never know the dog is lacking.

 

An exercise you can try is to put grain out for the sheep. Let the sheep start for the grain and encourage the dog to walk into them while they are moving toward her. You can have her on a line so she can't flank around or dive. The diving makes sheep suspicious. I believe they know a dog is scared when they dive. Move her forward til the sheep turn and drive then them away a bit.

 

Pull her off and let them come toard the grain again. Repeat the process. Teach her a phrase for taking the initiatve herself to turn them. Make sure she feels she has turned them. In time, she will hopefully build the reaction to come forward into sheep that are coming toeeard her. The contact is important ?keep her coming forward into them. They will turn. I think someone else may have already posted something to this effect.

 

Also, if the sheep spread out on their way forward so they can get around you & the dog while you are getting things set up, put them in a place where there is a gate or opening so the dog can block them in the opening and kep them from spreading. This will help her learn to come forward into sheep coming at her.

 

Again, she may never be gritty but you can build her confidence in other ways than sacrificing a lamb.

 

Good luck.

[Guest carol campion]

Kim

 

Another thing I look for is any time that the sheep are facing my dog and the dog slowly takes initiative to walk towards them in a position to turn or drive them. In these instances, the dog is taking it initiative and I am always looking for that to encourage it. It is one of the few times I let a dog disobey. I would rather the confidence to turn sheep than the obedience.

 

Often, when I have a student and we stop to talk about something, the sheep will stop as well. They will often turn to face us to keep an eye on us while we talk. Usually the dog is still watching the sheep though lying by us. At some point, the dog will one day just slowly get up with deliberateness and walk into those sheep looking at it?it will walk into the conflict. I keep an eye out for this initiative and even if I/we have asked the dog to lie down, if that dog gets up to turn sheep facing it, I will let it go forward til it turns the sheep and then lie it down again. I do not interfere with ts deliberateness to turn sheep. I allow this type of behavior til the dog becomes good at it.

 

In other words, keep your eyes open for opportunities that allow you to build its confidence. They do present themselves.

[Denise Wall]

I don't do this myself but holding a sheep's head and encouraging a dog to bite is pretty common advice that I've seen expressed many times. Jim Varnon used to give this same advice all the time on other lists and forums and nobody ever said anything to him about it.

[Bill Fosher]

Denise,

 

I did. I got reamed. I was told I was novice handler and didn't know shit from shinola and was anthropomorphizing.

 

---------------

 

Carol,

 

Thank you.

 

--------------

 

Kim,

 

Carol has described pretty well what should be done. The main thing here is not to teach the dog to grip, but to keep situations from arising where the dog needs to. When working ewes with young lambs, it's crucial to stay with your dog and help it. If in the situation that you describe, your dog had taken hold of the sheep, things would have gone from bad to worse. That ewe would have been on her like white on rice, and the dog would have lost control of all the other sheep while trying to defend herself or escape.

 

--------------

 

Nancy,

 

Before the next time you "get a wool lamb that is going to be sent to market" so that you can hold it by the wool: take some time and go to a slaughterhouse and look at the carcass of a lamb that has been handled by the wool. There will be huge bruises and subcutaneous bleeding at the locations where the hide was pulled. It hurts them something horrible -- probably worse than the dog bite. If you're marketing a lamb that you've handled that way, you're doing a disservice not only to the lamb, but also the people you sell it to and the sheep industry as a whole. And, as Carol has pointed out, to the dog.

[NancyO]

This is what I've been told about teaching a grip.

As I wrote, this is what I've been told about how to teach a grip, and from some top handlers, who have also demonstrated how to teach the grip.

 

I did not work my 2 year old with ewes with lambs, for the reason that I felt it would shake his confidence if turned on by the ewes. But the reality is that I still needed a dog that could move sheep when needed, or to bring a ewe into the shed that was having problems lambing etc, etc. So I took almost a year doing as Carol suggests, with walking with the dog to give it confidence and walks directly into the heads, which has really worked. But still want the dog to know that when a sheep puts it's head down and comes forward, it can grip.

 

Carol wrote

My advice is wait to use this dog to move difficult sheep or sell her on.

Carol, not everyone is in the business of selling thier dogs on, or would even want to. But would rather learn a way to use the dog to meet thier needs.

 

Bill,

 

I've never have had a bloodied nose on a sheep, nor am I pulling on the wool. Have just found that holding a wool sheep between the legs is easier than a hair sheep. The only time I've had a bloody sheep was when i had been using a long line on a dog. The dog was walking off the field with me, dog went around one side of a pole and I on the other, for some reason one of the sheep behind us decided to run between us and ran into the line. I have not used a long line since. Sheep was OK.

 

Nancy O

[Howdyjabo]

There is a measure of lowered animal husbandry when starting a dog-- Our goal should be to minismise the level and time frame.

 

Now on the other hand--- artificial means of teaching the bite are mostly ineffective. Unless you are teaching a bite on command- but then the bite is already there.

 

Its natural for a dog to bypass a recalcitrant ewe and move the others. In a way its a very intelligent way to try-- once the others are moving and the recalcitrant one is not being challanged it will usually rejoin the group. But its not 100%

and the ewe will do it over and over it gets irritating- So a proper bite is necessary.

 

But.... it has to be the dogs decision. Begging or forcing the issue is ineffective.

 

Try this..... when being stood off have the dog just look at the ewe- its going to try and go around to something else- don't let it move off that ewe. Keep your attitude rather bored. And wait. If the ewe shifts its eyes or head- make sure the dog does not move.

Most standoffs are either started or intensified becasue the dog blocked the ewe when it tried to back down.Remember Flight or fight.

 

Eventually the dog will realise that its not going to get any other work. the ewe will get more uncomfortable and the dog will get more uncomfortable(you stay bored and keep your mouth shut- unless the dog moves off pressure)

It will (if its got any drive) eventually try to make something happen. Be there to make sure that the ewe moves off and accept whatever the dog decided to do.

And by wait I mean for up to a half hour-- if nothing happens by then(I have never seen it take that long) the only other thing I might think about doing is to push the ewe into the dog and force the issue.

 

The dog will get more comfortable each time with taking control of the situation.And that in itself will decrease the number of times its challanged.

 

Make sure that you have the other sheep in sight- you need that draw. And make sure that the ewes lambs are with the group and not standing with her.

 

There are some bad ass ewes(and even more does) that just like to harrass a dog. They are easily fixed by having a broom or yard rake and let them charge the dog and get met by a face full of broom. Then keep the dog back off enough to give her a chance to get back into the group.

 

And in pens sometimes a dog just has to accept a hit on the way around-- getting into it with the sheep in front is useless- they can't backdown- there is nowhere for them to go- remember flight or fight.The dog would get hit less if it didn't look at the ewes on the way round.

A good handler would spot the challangeing ewe and send the dog around to the opposite side. So it could get to the back before it had to take on a fight.

 

Hope this helps

 

Remember-- sheep get stupider when being bit -- Cattle get smarter-- the dogs know this and have to manage the bite differently. This may be what your dog is picking up on and just doesn't know what to do about it.

[juliepoudrier]

Great post Karen!

 

J.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Hi All,

 

When Tess was young we used to sit in a stall full of ewes....me with my cup of coffee and book and Tess on a down. She used to be terrifed to be in a stall full of sheep. After a bit, I would move my position in the stall and Tess would go with me....after a few times then Tess realized that sheep were more terrified of her than her of them and then after a bit, Tess would squeeze herself b/w the sheep and wall to move them and now is one great dog in the stall.

 

Later when I would feed sheep she would hold the sheep off the feeders when I poured the grain. The first time the sheep ran over her to get to the grain and she picked herself up and then got them off and learned to hold them off and now she just stands and they back off. She knew she had a job to do and learned to do it. She had to grip a few ewes to figure it out but now she just walks up.

 

Each yr after lambing she would work the ewes and lambs and it was a struggle for her. The ewes would charge, she would try to grip/move them and had a hard time but we kept pluggng away at it. I would lie her down and wait for the ewe to turn and have her walk up.....it was a battle and she wanted to fly in and grip but I was trying to teach her that she could move them without gripping all the time.

 

Then this year.....

 

I had to move the ewes/lambs from one field as it was flooding. I looked at my lineup of dogs.....most were too young or made the ewes too nervous. Tess, one week from having pups, was the best choice so I took her out.

 

She gathered the flock and the last few stragglers had the lambs going all over the place but not the direction they should have been. Several ewes turned to face her and I was ready for them to charge.

 

Tess froze and ever so slightly shifted her weight to one side, then moved one paw up in the air and held it. The ewes stepped back. She turned her body again and shifted her paw again to move forward. The ewes shifted back. (At this point I figured the best thing for me was to shut up)..... A faint shift here and there, Tess frozen in time, ewes moving back a step at a time, Tess shifting a paw, lambs moving in the right direction, Tess frozen in time....it was like a slow dance....and next thing I know the ewes are in the pen with Tess at the gate.

 

"Hello mom, shut the damm gate will you"

 

God, I was so proud. This was a dog that would try to do cheap grips to move ewes to a dog that did a slow dance partially frozen in time to move ewes.

 

On a side note, she will move dumb lambs with her nose, she just nudges them towards the way she needs them to go.

 

She has come a long way and just being patient with her had paid off.

 

I am always being humbled by her

 

Diane Pagel

[Bill Fosher]

This story illustrates something that I learned from Molly: sometimes the best way to get a ewe to move is to relieve the pressure a little bit. Take it down a notch, let her think, let her get to a point where she can feel that if she moves, she will be taking her lambs to safety, as opposed to leaving them exposed.

 

Molly behaved very similarly to Tess: looking almost like a bird dog on point, she would turn her head about 20 degrees to one side or the other, taking the pressure down just a notch. The ewe was still under her control, but the control wasn't a threat anymore. The ewe would take a step back, and Molly would simply hold her ground. Then another step. Then a turn. The ewe would then trot off, head in the air, with her lambs by her side.

 

It's like the detective in the interrogation room who leans back in the chair and tells the suspect, "I've got all day. You can decide when you want to play ball." And the fact of the matter is that a dog can't make a sheep do anything; it can only make the options other than the desired behavior less and less desirable until the ewe takes the desired path. This is true whether the dog grips or not.

[Sue R]

This has been a great learning thread and I appreciate all the posts I have read.

 

I did read the posts about "teaching the grip" with dismay and must admit that I wasn't brave enough to express my feelings about the methods proposed.

 

I don't have sheep but really appreciate comments about handling them as I hope to have some someday. I had no idea that handling sheep by the wool would be anything but convenient, and surely not harmful. However, I am glad to know not to do that and realize that if I had hair (or the equivalent wool) on my body, that it would surely hurt and injure to be moved around by someone yanking on it.

 

I also am very grateful for these last couple of posts by Diane and Bill. They are very helpful in understanding how to work stock better with my dogs.

[Guest carol campion]

I want to add one last comment about this thread.

 

My objection has not been with the people but about the information on methods being given out. Nancy was trying to be helpful by responding to a woman's question on how to do this. We have all seen many posts on different lists all giving out the same info that Nancy did.

 

To me that is the problem. It has become acceptable and the norm. And because Jim Varnon or anyone else suggests doing this, doesn't make it right.

 

Again, this is a huge audience and you can never be sure how someone may take the info and run with it. People are quickly coming into the sport from many different walks of life and without meaning to, you can encourage the subtly pervasive attitude that the sheep are somehow a dispensible aspect of this sport.

 

As someone in a very wise post said, "There is a measure of lowered animal husbandry when starting a dog-- Our goal should be to minimise the level and time frame."

 

Respectfully

 

Carol

[Howdyjabo]

i have seen the abuse that is accepted by the people coming into the "sport".

Its usually not an intensity of the abuse but the durations that bother me.

 

They think it is fine for the dog to be aggitating the sheep week after week- and its not.

The goal is to make a working dog- if you can't do it quickly you really need to be doing something else for entertainment.

 

And as far as the intensity of abuse to the stock-- I have learned that people about have to overswing the issues at first get a good reaction-- from the dog or stock-- then learn to accomplish the same without having to go so far.

 

i am willing to put up with that-- as long as the goal is to get past it- not just week after week of the same stuff becasue its fun for the dog and owner or they are not looking for a better way(even if they don't have the skills to apply it now).

 

Again starting a dog or handler is not pretty-- if we try and make it pretty too fast we are shortchanging the dog and handler. if we do not activly work towards improving the issues then we are shortchanging the stock.

A tender Balancing act.

 

PS- Thanks Julie

[concrete]

Just to comment on your original post about a dog avoiding a ewe protecting its lamb instead of biting it. Tonight I was shedding a ewe with mastitis out to give it an injection. I have lambs ranging from a week to a month old in with these ewes. My dog lad, who tore my rams ear off when he charged him, put way to much pressure on a ewe with a young lamb and when she went after him he turned tail and ran back about ten feet and let her get her lamb and get out of there. This dog isn't afraid of anything just smart. Sometimes a grip is not the right thing for a dog to do when charged.

 

Kevin

[kimkathan]

I think that this situation is probably similar to what would have happened if it could have. We went to a different field last night, with different sheep and a friend who's seen her develope from the beginning. We put 7 sheep into a high pressure corner where they didn't want to come out of at all to see what she'd do. She approached there rear, as their head were into the corner, so tight that she couldn't get in between the fence and them. After a moment of thinking and trying ot get in there, she crawled down in between their legs and popped up in their faces, no gripping, no high stress. This suprised them that they promptly proceded to move out of the corner. We then put the sheep into a small 6'shed to see what she'd do getting them out. She started to approach from the heads and 3 split off and took them out. She went back in the same direction, one ewe was standing her off, stamping. The dog then proceeded to come in from the rear and move them out. I think that if there had been time for her to think in the previous posting's situation, that she probably could have gotten out of it, it was just that it happend in the wrong place, so fast and by suprise to both of us (the lamb just walked out of the creep at the wrong time) that she didn't have time to try and think out other ways. Oh by the way, she did "pop" a sheep on the nose last night, looked very methodical and a nice fast release, no holding on. The same obstinant ewe was getting her into a corner, and the dog was trying to pull around to the sides to get behind the sheep, but the ewe was just not letting any of that happen. After a while of trying this, I was backing around to open up a spot for her, my back was to her, but the other guy I train with said that she just popped up a bit her on the nose, the ewe backed down. This is what I was looking for. I don't want a dog to feel that the only way it has to get out of a situation is to bite, but if push comes to shove and it's getting into a position that it can't get out of, that it still has it as a resource. I have seen dogs get banged up so much so, that they have been compleatly turned off from work, or worse. I think highly of this dog, and think that there is some great potential there if I don't compleatly bugger her up first.

[Pipedream Farm]

That's wonderful news for you. Sounds like you have a good perspective on how to help her and work with her appropriately. I didn't think you ever had any intention of turning her into a "rip 'em shred 'em" type of dog. It's a shame this thread took such an extremist bent on both sides, but there is a lot of good information about handling to avoid escalating situations with the sheep and teaching the dog to deal with situations. If your dog is willing to grip in the right situation, you probably don't need to worry about teaching it to grip. The advise I gave you was based on my first dog who was taught to never, ever grip under any circumstances. Teaching a dog like her is a whole different thing than one that will grip. But like you, I merely wanted her to not risk injury to herself if she didn't have any other choice. I did accomplish what I wanted and it did not involve injuring or maiming sheep or having to dump them off at the stockyard later. After all, if she had that type of gripping potential, I never would have worked with her in this way to begin with.

Renee

[Sue R]

This has been such a wonderfully educational thread in pointing out to me that, sometimes, "less is more". In other words, a quiet, calm approach can accomplish good low-stress work.

 

I took my dogs out yesterday to mineral the cattle and did a little training work while we were there. Right now, all the herd except the bull is together, cow/calf pairs with newborn to young calves, in-calf heifers, and yearling heifers.

 

Since I don't really work the herd when calves are present (unless needed) and I need some work to do with the dogs, I thought about this thread and came up with some work that was very "illuminating" for myself and (I hope) for the dogs as well.

 

I would select an animal or a few that were placed a bit away from the main group. I would flank or outrun the dogs to the position where I wanted them, and down them. I would have them stay put and, if the animals didn't turn away or move off in a little bit, I would walk the dogs up but just a few steps and down them again.

 

I would do this until the stock finally would turn away and move off towards the main group. I would have the dogs walk along quietly (with frequent downs if needed) until I told them "that'll do". Then we would go find another small group to work.

 

I was absolutely amazed at how quietly the dogs could work the stock and how calm and stress-free the cattle remained. The entire herd stayed very relaxed and the animals that we were moving did not seem upset at all, just responsive in a calm manner to the dogs' quiet movements.

 

Thanks for this thread! It has really helped me think about how I AM working my dogs and how I SHOULD be working my dogs. Good husbandry (and dog handling) should minimize stress for all concerned, and get the job done in a manner that is most beneficial for all.

[Pipedream Farm]

I just wanted to add one other thing. When you're doing a lot of shed/corner work, it's a good idea to finish with something easy and less stressful to her such as some quiet balance work out in the open. Also, be careful not to overdo the amount of close work/challenging situations. A little bit is great, but there can be too much of a good thing as well --especially with a young dog. Good luck with her!

Renee