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MaggieDog

I'm curious

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Obviously we're not talking about CH Dame Fluffington the Third, blah blah blah who has no herding instinct, but rather an AKC dog that has an owner who puts in the time to work their dog and has an animal that shows skills. What level of skill would you want to see before considering breeding to an AKC dog - actively trialling and placing? What level? Working in "the real world"? Which venues (other than AKC)?

 

Would the AKC registration completely negate any talent in a dog? If so, why?

 

Keep in mind that this is just for my own curiosity after watching numerous threads on breeding unfold - I'm not interested in ever breeding, so no need to worry about that!

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Obviously we're not talking about CH Dame Fluffington the Third, blah blah blah who has no herding instinct, but rather an AKC dog that has an owner who puts in the time to work their dog and has an animal that shows skills. What level of skill would you want to see before considering breeding to an AKC dog - actively trialling and placing? What level? Working in "the real world"? Which venues (other than AKC)?

 

I guess I'd never say never, but I don't think I'd ever breed to a dog who was registered strictly with the AKC (vs., say, a dual-registered dog). For me, that's a matter of philosophy. If the owner of the dog has deliberately registered it with AKC and excluded other registries, then that to me says something about the *owner's* philosophy, and that's not something I would compromise on or buy into. If, hypothetically, I were to want to use such a dog for breeding, it would have to perform well in open-level USBCHA trials or I'd have to see it working in a number of different situations (places and stock) or have worked with it enough myself to determine that it was a dog I'd want a pup from.

 

Would the AKC registration completely negate any talent in a dog? If so, why?

 

I don't think where the dog is registered negates talent, per se; as I noted above it's about breeding and working philosophies and what the AKC stands for in that regard, which by extension is what the owner of the AKC-registered dog in question must also stand for. This is something of a sticky discussion because you haven't distinguished between dogs bred from AKC-registered dogs and themselves registered only with AKC and dogs who come from, say, ABCA- or ISDS-registered parents and are then dual-registered with AKC. Obviously dogs from the latter category would hold a greater interest for me as far as a working breeding goes, but even then, I'd want to know the owner's reasons behind the AKC registration and I'd want the dog to be working to a standard that satisfies me WRT consideration as a breeding prospect.

 

I suppose that if there were a dog who was only AKC registered and was lighting up the stockdog world with its obvious talent I might consider that dog as a breeding prospect, but of course there is so much more that goes into a breeding decision than the dog's registry that even if such a dog existed it might not necessarily be the best dog to cross with my own dog. The other side to that is that it's just as likely that there would be plenty of exceptional breeding choices for my dog who were NOT solely AKC-registered, so I shouldn't have to compromise on that point anyway.

 

JMO.

 

J.

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Hello everyone,

 

I fully agree with Julie, and her response reflects my thoughts regarding breeding worthiness, as well.

 

In Julie's reply, she wrote, "If the owner of the dog has deliberately registered it with AKC and excluded other registries, then that to me says something about the *owner's* philosophy, and that's not something I would compromise on or buy into."

 

As someone who was an active participant in "The Dog Wars", that is the clincher for me. I will not compromise my values to support anything or anyone associated with the AKC.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

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A question form an outsider: what is the average level of success for dog to be considered for breeding in ISDS or a similar association?

 

Maja

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Maja,

I think the answer to your question depends on who is doing the evaluating. If, for example, Tommy Wilson were looking at a young dog, maybe just started in training, and determined he'd like to breed from that dog, I wouldn't question that. But for most of us, who don't have that type of experience and knowledge, the dog should at least be doing well on a full-size trial course, which would mean running and doing well in open, nursery, or ranch (east)/P-N (west). For me personally, if the dog is not trialing, I would still want to see the dog working in unfamiliar situations (that is, not always at its home farm or on its home stock) or working under difficult (i.e., not just on a small acreage with relatively tame stock) conditions over a long period of time. A dog I was personally training would be considered for breeding as well, since I would know its strengths and weaknesses through the training process. But for those latter dogs (the ones not trialing successfully in open), I would also want to make sure that the other half of the cross was trialing successfully in open or similar. That's just me though, because I would want to stack the deck in my favor WRT to getting a good worker out of the cross.

 

Registries being what they are, anyone can breed their dogs and register them of course, regardless of ability or lack thereof, and here in the US, you'll see plenty of novice handlers breeding their novice trial dogs, sometimes to well-respected open trial dogs, sometimes not. My main complaint with this sort of breeding practice is that I feel the novice handler doesn't have enough experience with dogs or stock to make a true, honest evaluation of a novice dog. I would hope that if such dogs are being bred to well-respected open dogs that the owners of the open dogs are considering the merits of the cross and not just the money-making side of it. I'm sure some do; but it's also likely some don't.

 

J.

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Thank you! :rolleyes: it all makes sense. I think the bigger problem in deciding (this a little off topic) is that for a female you have to decide pretty early. I don't know about the US, but In Poland the bitch must be at least 18 months but no older than 8 years to breed. Waiting for her to really show what she's worth would just about limit her to a couple of litters, wouldn't it?

Maja

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Thank you! :rolleyes: it all makes sense. I think the bigger problem in deciding (this a little off topic) is that for a female you have to decide pretty early. I don't know about the US, but In Poland the bitch must be at least 18 months but no older than 8 years to breed. Waiting for her to really show what she's worth would just about limit her to a couple of litters, wouldn't it?

Maja

Yes, though if she's a nursery star, she would be less than three. I bred my bitch at age 4 1/2, after she had taken me from novice to open and qualified, ran in, and placed in the top 50 at the national finals. The trick of course is that you would want to evaluate the offspring of that first litter before breeding again, which seriously limits the number of pups you can get from any particular bitch. Again, someone with years and years of experience, and knowledge of pedigrees, might decide that a young bitch who shows promise and is likely a good breeder (from knowing the lines) should be bred, but I presonally believe that there's no harm in the rest of us waiting and proving the dog and thus producing fewer litters overall.

 

J.

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I agree with you, although what you said opened yet some other interesting avenues for discussion :D , but I must go and feed my poor sheep - it's been blowing very hard and pouring rain for the last three days (hey, isn't Earl supposed to be over on your side of Atlantic or something? :rolleyes: ) and it's off topic anyway.

 

Maja

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Thanks for the replies so far! It's quite helpful to me to see all the angles to the whole discussion of breeding based on skill vs registry.

 

Would it make any difference if the person who owned the AKC dog had originally acquired the dog for something other than stockwork, yet then got addicted to stockwork and decided to pursue that instead? Then you'd be working with someone who theoretically espouses a view quite similar to your own instead of the AKC perspective and, by breeding their dog to a non-AKC registered dog, they would not be able to register the pups and thus no money would would going to AKC. Correct?

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by breeding their dog to a non-AKC registered dog, they would not be able to register the pups and thus no money would would going to AKC. Correct?

 

No. With ACK and their Open Registration a pup can be registered with them if they have ABCA papers or ISDS papers. So even if one of the parents wasn't ACK registered but the litter was ABCA registered they could obtain ACK papers.

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No. With ACK and their Open Registration a pup can be registered with them if they have ABCA papers or ISDS papers. So even if one of the parents wasn't ACK registered but the litter was ABCA registered they could obtain ACK papers.

 

What about the opposite situation? When I first got my (rescue) dog, I came within a few days of sending for an ILP number when I discovered the Border Collie Boards. I quickly learned that aligning myself with the AKC in any way was probably a bad idea. But what if I had? If I had registered her with the AKC, and then discovered that she was an incredibly great stock dog could I then register her (or progeny) with the ABCA or the ISDS?

 

All purely theoretical, of course - she's spayed! :rolleyes:

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If I had registered her with the AKC, and then discovered that she was an incredibly great stock dog could I then register her (or progeny) with the ABCA or the ISDS?

 

Only IF - she was able to meet the requirements (pass them) for a ROM. An ILP is not the same as a regular registration number, now to obtain the ILP or rather the PAL one has to be speutered :rolleyes:IF she passed the ROM then yes her offspring could be registered with ABCA - however, only if there was no CH obtained on her through ACK (which you could not have done had she gotten a PAL number as she would be required to be speutered therefore there would be no offspring anyhow!)

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Only IF - she was able to meet the requirements (pass them) for a ROM. An ILP is not the same as a regular registration number, now to obtain the ILP or rather the PAL one has to be speutered :DIF she passed the ROM then yes her offspring could be registered with ABCA - however, only if there was no CH obtained on her through ACK (which you could not have done had she gotten a PAL number as she would be required to be speutered therefore there would be no offspring anyhow!)

 

Oh, I see. So what the AKC is really saying is, "OK, kid, we'll let you pretend (for a fee) that your flat-coated, prick-eared, hell-for-leather little sheep-chaser is a real honest-to-pete Border Collie, but no matter how good she is at working stock, we simply can't have her engaging in dalliance with our fluffy-puffy-oohchie-koochie-hoity-toity real AKC Border Collies."

 

As if she'd give 'em the time of day... :rolleyes: I'd forgotten that they had to be fixed to get that PAL number. Heaven forbid that some little upstart workin' dog's pups should show up their "ring-dusters" in Westminster or somesuch...

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Oh, I see. So what the AKC is really saying is, "OK, kid, we'll let you pretend (for a fee) that your flat-coated, prick-eared, hell-for-leather little sheep-chaser is a real honest-to-pete Border Collie, but no matter how good she is at working stock, we simply can't have her engaging in dalliance with our fluffy-puffy-oohchie-koochie-hoity-toity real AKC Border Collies."

 

As if she'd give 'em the time of day... :rolleyes: I'd forgotten that they had to be fixed to get that PAL number. Heaven forbid that some little upstart workin' dog's pups should show up their "ring-dusters" in Westminster or somesuch...

 

 

I think the intention behind requiring sterilization for an ILP (now PAL) dog was to prevent someone from foisting of a "registered" puppy from an ILP dog. Aside from any issues with the closed-gene-pool-registration mindset, it was intended to allow un-registrable dogs of a registrable breed to compete in performance events, not conformation events.

 

Dogs shown in conformation are all intact. You couldn't show your AKC registered dog in conformation if she was sterilized, either.

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I think the intention behind requiring sterilization for an ILP (now PAL) dog was to prevent someone from foisting of a "registered" puppy from an ILP dog. Aside from any issues with the closed-gene-pool-registration mindset, it was intended to allow un-registrable dogs of a registrable breed to compete in performance events, not conformation events.

 

Dogs shown in conformation are all intact. You couldn't show your AKC registered dog in conformation if she was sterilized, either.

 

Isn't that what I just said? Kinda? They have to be fixed to prevent them from breeding with the "real" AKC dogs. Pity. Some of those "ring-dusters" could do with a little infusion of new blood! :rolleyes: Not that I'd like to see their dogs getting bred any more than they are already. Too many of 'em as it is!

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Isn't that what I just said? Kinda? They have to be fixed to prevent them from breeding with the "real" AKC dogs. Pity. Some of those "ring-dusters" could do with a little infusion of new blood! :rolleyes: Not that I'd like to see their dogs getting bred any more than they are already. Too many of 'em as it is!

 

Kinda, yeah. :D You will have no argument from me re: the need for new blood (see: closed gene pool comment), I only wanted to point out that the ILP program was to be inclusive in performance events for rescued dogs, shelter dogs and back yard bred dogs so they could get involved with AKC events, as opposed to being afraid that your dog would show them up in the breed ring at Westminster.

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... I only wanted to point out that the ILP program was to be inclusive in performance events for rescued dogs, shelter dogs and back yard bred dogs so they could get involved with AKC events, as opposed to being afraid that your dog would show them up in the breed ring at Westminster.

In other words, it was just another way for AKC to make money.

 

J.

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From what I read about the regulations, ABCA registers on ROM only pedigreed dogs? Or is it like ISDS, they can be nonpedigreed (the text is slightly ambiguous to me)?

 

The ISDS does but the dog must (apart from working like a BC) must look like a bc:

Written confirmation by a currently serving Director of the Society that the dog seeking registration is a Working Sheep Dog and is true to type. This means that, irrespective of its coat style, coloring or size, the dog is a Border Collie as accepted by this Society.

 

Please take note of the teeny-weeny fact that the ACK sporting events are partially funded by the members of the ACK and all the fees they pay for various things. The money does not fall out of the sky and sporting events are rather expensive to organize (of course they have income from other sources too). What is so strange that an organization puts together an event for its members? Other organizations do something different?

 

In Poland, the problem was sort of solved in that it is the people's membership that is required. Dogs are not members, they are only KC registered (I think ISDS has the same division). If you are a member of the KC then your dog can compete in most sporting event, regardless of their origins. The dogs themselves cannot be registered unless the are pedigreed with the exceptions of a couple of Polish breeds that still have the so call Open Stud Books.

 

The interesting thing is that the only exception is herding events - in Poland only pedigreed dogs registered in either KC or ISDS and the handler registered in KC can compete in events at any level. Even a lousy herding instinct test, the dog must be a pedigreed pastoral breed.

 

I don't know much about ACK, but this I am pretty sure of - their view as an institution is that ALL dogs that are not to be used for breeding should be speutered as you beautifully put it. That means that all pedigrees should fixed unless from the start they are meant to be breed. One may dislike ACK, but the mission statement is that ACK is an organization dedicated to promoting purebreeds. You can't deride an organization for doing what they were created for.

 

At the same time, if you have a border collie, you can registered it with the ABCA on merit, right? So the best thing to do is to do ROM there, and then the ACK must registered the ABCA registered dog (open registration, not the PAL thing), right? :rolleyes:

 

Maja

P.S. I just checked the ISDS and both dog and owner must be members of ISDS to participate in National Trials, and if the dog has a different handler form owner, all three must be members.

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I think the intention behind requiring sterilization for an ILP (now PAL) dog was to prevent someone from foisting of a "registered" puppy from an ILP dog. Aside from any issues with the closed-gene-pool-registration mindset, it was intended to allow un-registrable dogs of a registrable breed to compete in performance events, not conformation events.

 

Dogs shown in conformation are all intact. You couldn't show your AKC registered dog in conformation if she was sterilized, either.

 

Yep, pretty much that's how I understand it works. I'm getting Sinead registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier with the UKC on Limited Privilege once she's spayed so I can compete with her in their weight pull events.

 

With that I can get her registered either as a mutt or as an APBT with photos. She physically conforms to the APBT standard (once she's back in shape, she'll look closer to an ADBA APBT than a UKC one, though), so I'm going to go the photo route.

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From what I read about the regulations, ABCA registers on ROM only pedigreed dogs? Or is it like ISDS, they can be nonpedigreed (the text is slightly ambiguous to me)?

 

The ISDS does but the dog must (apart from working like a BC) must look like a bc

 

The whole point of ROM is to get an unregistered dog into the registry, so the dog doesn't necessarily need to be pedigreed. The person I know who ROMed a dog did have to give as much information about the dog's bloodlines as she was able to provide, but a full pedigree was not required (she didn't have one).

 

 

Please take note of the teeny-weeny fact that the ACK sporting events are partially funded by the members of the ACK and all the fees they pay for various things. The money does not fall out of the sky and sporting events are rather expensive to organize (of course they have income from other sources too). What is so strange that an organization puts together an event for its members? Other organizations do something different?

 

I think this is one of those things where you need to understand the history behind AKC and its actions here in the US regarding pedigreed dogs before you will ever understand the vehemence with which folks approach the whole topic of the organization. If you haven't read it already, get The Dog Wars by Donald McCaig. It's a small book that details the story of how the border collie came to be recognized by the AKC here in the US. It is illustrative of how AKC operates with respect to any breed it chooses to suck under its umbrella.

 

This is the same organization that entered an agreement with a pet store known to get pups from puppy mills (as a money-making venture for AKC) and backed down only when its own membership protested loudly. Unlike in Poland, AKC registers litters from two registered adults, regardless of how those dogs are being bred (i.e., many puppy mills register with AKC, so AKC rakes in registration money without any regard for the conditions these animals are kept, and if you Google puppy mills here in the US, you will find out exactly what sorts of conditions I'm talking about--think factory farming for dogs).

 

There was a recent thread in the General Discussion section about Baird Border collies, the OP's attempts to inform the AKC of a bad breeder, and AKC's complete indifference to the situation.

 

So there's a huge backstory here that leads to the comments you've been reading about AKC. In principle, AKC does have a right to make money through its membership and its events (although they are, technically, a non-profit). But what AKC has done over time is compromise its principles on things like purebred dogs in order to make *more money* (e.g., by allowing mixed breed dogs to compete in AKC events, which is something of a contradiction for an organization that supposedly exists to promote the purebred dog).

 

I could go on, but I've got a deadline....

 

I don't know much about ACK, but this I am pretty sure of - their view as an institution is that ALL dogs that are not to be used for breeding should be speutered as you beautifully put it. That means that all pedigrees should fixed unless from the start they are meant to be breed. One may dislike ACK, but the mission statement is that ACK is an organization dedicated to promoting purebreeds. You can't deride an organization for doing what they were created for.

 

Unlike in Poland, there are no requirements for certain conditions to be met before a dog is bred. So anyone with two AKC-registered dogs can breed them and register the pups. If past history is any indication, AKC view is "the more the merrier." Certainly there are the AKC members who breed, show or otherwise attempt to prove their breeding stock, and try to do it the right way (if we ignore for the purposes of this discussion the actual ruination of some breeds through this process), but if someone wants to find the statistics, I'd be willing to bet that the bulk of AKC registrations come from mills and BYBs <---which of course makes these operations huge moneymakers for AKC, and thus is the reason AKC doesn't take a stand against mills.

 

At the same time, if you have a border collie, you can registered it with the ABCA on merit, right? So the best thing to do is to do ROM there, and then the ACK must registered the ABCA registered dog (open registration, not the PAL thing), right? :rolleyes:

 

Why would anyone *want* to do that? To most of us with working-bred dogs, AKC is the antithesis of everything we believe in. I know that when the border collie was first recognized by AKC there were working breeders who tried to stay within the AKC ranks and influence change from within, but of course that was futile. If I had an unregistered dog that was a great worker, I would certainly try to ROM it with ABCA, but I would have absolutely no desire to also include that dog in the AKC gene pool.

 

P.S. To compete in the USBCHA National Finals, the handler (and the owner, I think, if the two are different) must be a member of both USBCHA and ABCA. But there is no requirement that the dog be pedigreed. ABCA adds money to the winnings for ABCA-registered dogs, but the whole point of an open trial is that it's open to any dog that meets the requirements to compete, regardless of pedigree or lack thereof.

 

J.

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Please take note of the teeny-weeny fact that the ACK sporting events are partially funded by the members of the ACK and all the fees they pay for various things.

 

Teeny-weeny fact: AKC does not have individual members. It has "parent" or member clubs, of which individuals can become members:

 

AKC Delegate Directory and Member Club Search

 

The American Kennel Club is a not-for-profit organization devoted to the advancement of purebred dogs. AKC is a "club of clubs", comprised of over 500 member clubs and almost 5000 affiliated clubs. There are no individual members.

 

Not defending AKC in any way, just think we should speak from an informed position whenever possible. Carry on! :rolleyes:

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The whole point of ROM is to get an unregistered dog into the registry, so the dog doesn't necessarily need to be pedigreed. The person I know who ROMed a dog did have to give as much information about the dog's bloodlines as she was able to provide, but a full pedigree was not required (she didn't have one).

Thank you for clarification, I thought so, but wanted to make sure.

 

Dear Julie,

I will try to get the book.

 

Why would anyone *want* to do that? To most of us with working-bred dogs, AKC is the antithesis of everything we believe in

I don't know who would :D , but the complaint here was, I thought, that a non-pedigreed BC would have to be spayed to be entered in the ACK and not have the possibility to breed (unless I misunderstood the oochie-koochie part?), so I just pointed out that a BC can actually get into the ACK not only with breeding possibility but with a vengeance having proven in ABCA to be a very good stock dog :D.

 

I am not trying to defend ACK, not in the least. But:

 

In principle, AKC does have a right to make money through its membership and its events (although they are, technically, a non-profit).

It was not my intention to say that ACk can make money on events, I meant to say they have a right to organize their events for their members who bear part of the expense.

 

But what AKC has done over time is compromise its principles on things like purebred dogs in order to make *more money* (e.g., by allowing mixed breed dogs to compete in AKC events, which is something of a contradiction for an organization that supposedly exists to promote the purebred dog).

I don't think I would agree int this particular instance, seeing that those dogs aree supposed to be fixed. A person with a dog that is spayed/neutered can espouse the idea that only pedigrees should be bred.

 

But I understand what you feel, at least partly. I can see that there are numerous serious issues with the ACK, and agree with these criticisms. I have also a lot of criticisms fro the Polish KC, my pet peeve being that I can't be an ISDS member. But one more thing I wanted to point out: In Poland, the requirement for a dog to conform to the standard has produced one very bad thing: puppy mills always have a very strong "argument" so easily bought but naive buyers: "You only need a pedigree to take your dog to shows, our dogs are purebred without the pedigree for half the price." :rolleyes: (this of course is not true, but is sounds good).

 

This just to let you know where I stand as an FCI person:

Personally, I don't think showing a dog is bad as such. Only (1) it should be secondary to other considerations for breeding, and (2) conformation itself should first focus on the physical soundness of a dog. For me beauty and health are inseparable. That means, in my opinion, that some breeds the way the are now, should be completely banned from breeding and those breeds should cease to exist. I always feel I want do bodily harm some of the FCI folk who talk about the working BC as "ugly" when they are so beautiful (sorry folks, you may not breed them for looks, but you still end up with beautiful dogs in my book :D ). And I want to do bodily harm to some isds type people for calling FCI dogs "wimps" on stubby legs. I guess I will always be in the middle.

 

So now another question (I know, I am a pain in the neck): How does ABCA prevent bad breeding practices?

 

Sorry for rambling on...

 

Edit: Megan, thank you for your clarification.

 

Your Polish Pain in the Neck,

Maja

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"[A] BC can actually get into the ACK not only with breeding possibility but with a vengeance having proven in ABCA to be a very good stock dog."

 

I think this is not true because AKC requires a three generation pedigree. I would be surprised if anyone registering on merit with ABCA has one. The only people who might do so would have progeny of deregisted AKC conformation champions or maybe pedigrees from an unrecognized registry. I know that Emily, my ROM border collie, was unknown on my side although I owned her unregistered mother and unknown on the father's side. I knew the sire and even had a photo the mating. What I could not do was locate the sire's owner.

 

Penny

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