Who can be ROM'd

[Soda-pop]

I've always wondered: To be ROM'd into ABCA does a dog HAVE to be a border collie? If I had some magical Aussie (let's say parents KNOWN to be an aussies) that could meet the rigorous standards set forth, would they be registrable as a border collie because they could work like a bc? Also, what if it was a border collie of totally unknown breeding?

 

I'm just curious.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I've always wondered: To be ROM'd into ABCA does a dog HAVE to be a border collie? If I had some magical Aussie (let's say parents KNOWN to be an aussies) that could meet the rigorous standards set forth, would they be registrable as a border collie because they could work like a bc? Also, what if it was a border collie of totally unknown breeding?

 

I'm just curious.

 

Any dog can be ROM'd if they can do the work well enough to pass the ROM requirements, except dogs that have been de-registered due to receiving a conformation championship. Border Collies of unknown breeding, other breeds, etc. I had wondered about this recently too, more specifically in reference to other breeds. It was pointed out to me if an Aussie or some other breed worked well enough to pass the ROM requirements, why would the owner want the dog to be registered in the American Border Collie Registry? There's no advantage to the owner of an Aussie to have the dog registered with a Border Collie registry. A good point! I guess the exception to this might be a dog who can't qualify for their own breed registry for some reason (unknown pedigree, unregistered parents, some disqualifying characteristic perhaps). Then maybe it would be worth it to have the dog registered with ABCA, where it might be bred with other working dogs and have its working ability carried on, by folks who care more about the dog's working ability than its pedigree.

[kelpiegirl]

Well, I can say that it sure would be a kick in the pants, if say, I, or someone I knew got an ROM on a Kelpie

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Well, I can say that it sure would be a kick in the pants, if say, I, or someone I knew got an ROM on a Kelpie

 

Sure, there are definitely Kelpies who would pass, but would the owner want to register their dog with ABCA? Would you want to? If so, why? Asking out of sincere curiosity, not in a "questioning" or sarcastic way.

[Pam Wolf]

It should be one way of stopping the AKC from allowing ABCA BC's. If we 'allowed' mix breeding of our dogs then the AKC couldn't consider them 'pure"

 

Beardies dont' realy count as they are 'just a coat variety" But add a Kelpie or AS toit and I think AKC might shut the door on BC's

 

Anyone want to try it with paying for the ROM on my Kelpie

[Eileen Stein]

It's been done. What AKC does is just say that the particular dog submitted to them for registration is "not of pure breeding," and either refuse to register it, or de-register it (with no refund) if they discover it after the fact. It does not keep them from registering ABCA dogs in general. See previous discussion here. In that case the ROM ancestor was a beardie, but I'm sure they'd take same approach with a kelpie or the offspring of a kelpie.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Megan

It wouldn't matter if I registered my Kelpie with the ABCA. Basically, when you ROM your dog, you have a dog recognized as a BC, because of it's performance on the trial field. Registering with the ABCA? Well, I can tell you that if that occurred with one of my Kelpies, I would definitely not be bothered at all, as long as he/she kept the WKC registration.

 

Sure, there are definitely Kelpies who would pass, but would the owner want to register their dog with ABCA? Would you want to? If so, why? Asking out of sincere curiosity, not in a "questioning" or sarcastic way.

[Pam Wolf]

It's been done. What AKC does is just say that the particular dog submitted to them for registration is "not of pure breeding," and either refuse to register it, or de-register it (with no refund) if they discover it after the fact. It does not keep them from registering ABCA dogs in general. See previous discussion here. In that case the ROM ancestor was a beardie, but I'm sure they'd take same approach with a kelpie or the offspring of a kelpie.

 

 

As I wrote I don't think the beardie would mean the same as a Kelpie. Since AKC has other registries that consider coat variations as one breed where as AKC considers them different breeds, the Beardie would be considered a coat variation. EX: Belgian Terverun, Belgian Sheepdog and Malinois are 3 diff breeds in AKC, but one breed with coat variety elsewhere.

 

Now, If the American Border Collie Registry recognized a definitely 'different' breed, not just a coat variety it might work.

 

It would most likely keep them from registering any kelpies w/ AKC as Border Collie, but if it were known that a Kelpie was 'considered' a Border Collie it might work

 

And Kelpiegirl, wouldn't bother me at all, don't plan on breeding Kelpies And I doubt the WKC would have little issue since they recognize Station or Ranch bred Kelpies

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Hi Megan

It wouldn't matter if I registered my Kelpie with the ABCA. Basically, when you ROM your dog, you have a dog recognized as a BC, because of it's performance on the trial field. Registering with the ABCA? Well, I can tell you that if that occurred with one of my Kelpies, I would definitely not be bothered at all, as long as he/she kept the WKC registration.

 

Hi Julie,

 

Maybe I'm not asking my questions the right way. The original question was,

To be ROM'd into ABCA does a dog HAVE to be a border collie?

 

And no, it doesn't, so based on your first post, I wondered what would be the motivating factor for you or anyone with another breed to desire ABCA registration so much that you would pursue a ROM (hypothetically)? What would the owner of another breed gain if they registered their Kelpie (or Aussie, or whatever), if they gained ROM with ABCA? Proof that the dog can work to a high standard? That could be proven by using the dog in real, challenging work situations or on the Open trial field, right? I guess they'd be eligible for certain ABCA sponsored awards at the Sheepdog/Cattledog Finals. (I don't know what those awards or prizes are and whether the value is such to motivate someone to go for a ROM.) I can't see any other advantage, unless the dog was for some reason ineligible for registration with its own breed registry.

 

Again, just want to emphasise that I'm not making an argument (there's nothing to argue about). I'm sincerely curious.

[kelpiegirl]

Megan

 

Until you run a non-BC in BC trials, I doubt you would understand. There is a pretty strong contingent of folks out there that believe only the Border Collie can/should excel in Border Collie trials (sic), and that it must be some sort of collossal fluke for say, a Kelpie to consistently do well. Comments abound. And, anytime a Kelpie errs on the field, you can rest assured, whispers about why the dog can't do the work will start. Oh, and if the dog really flubs up, then it is considered that maybe non Border Collies shouldn't run at all. It's basically bigotry. When in fact, it's all supposed to be about the work.

 

There are also lots of well respected folks out there who don't see the dog's paint job, or build, and just see a sheepdog, and judge it by the work it does, and the affect it has on the sheep.

 

So, in answer to your question, maybe the answer is, "Just because we can".

 

Hi Julie,

 

Maybe I'm not asking my questions the right way. The original question was,

 

And no, it doesn't, so based on your first post, I wondered what would be the motivating factor for you or anyone with another breed to desire ABCA registration so much that you would pursue a ROM (hypothetically)? What would the owner of another breed gain if they registered their Kelpie (or Aussie, or whatever), if they gained ROM with ABCA? Proof that the dog can work to a high standard? That could be proven by using the dog in real, challenging work situations or on the Open trial field, right? I guess they'd be eligible for certain ABCA sponsored awards at the Sheepdog/Cattledog Finals. (I don't know what those awards or prizes are and whether the value is such to motivate someone to go for a ROM.) I can't see any other advantage, unless the dog was for some reason ineligible for registration with its own breed registry.

 

Again, just want to emphasise that I'm not making an argument (there's nothing to argue about). I'm sincerely curious.

[C Crocker]

Megan

 

Until you run a non-BC in BC trials, I doubt you would understand. There is a pretty strong contingent of folks out there that believe only the Border Collie can/should excel in Border Collie trials (sic), and that it must be some sort of collossal fluke for say, a Kelpie to consistently do well. Comments abound. And, anytime a Kelpie errs on the field, you can rest assured, whispers about why the dog can't do the work will start. Oh, and if the dog really flubs up, then it is considered that maybe non Border Collies shouldn't run at all. It's basically bigotry. When in fact, it's all supposed to be about the work.

 

There are also lots of well respected folks out there who don't see the dog's paint job, or build, and just see a sheepdog, and judge it by the work it does, and the affect it has on the sheep.

 

So, in answer to your question, maybe the answer is, "Just because we can".

 

 

Wow that is certainly the downer side of looking at things. Has it occured to you that there are not as many ( actually almost noe where I live in the western states ) that run a kelpie on these types of courses? They can enter up as well as a border collie, as can any breed for that matter. These are not "BC trials", they are sheepdog trials, or cattle, etc trials

 

At this time in the areas where I trial there is one lovely Kelpie trialing and I feel making great strides, especially considering her owner is a novice. Funny I never hear the kind of remarks you state are said when this man runs his Kelpie. Maybe I hang around with a higher class of people at these trials than you have spoken about.

 

 

I feel your explanation is too simple, although this may be what what you have seen or heard of.

Please do not paint the trial world with your brush.

 

 

Carolyn

[Sue R]

I have to agree with Carolyn that, at least where I have been to trials (VA, OH, and KY primarily) that dogs of other breeds have been "judged" by the work they do, not by appearance or breed per se. I was very impressed by an Aussie at the Bluegrass (last year, I think) who did a very fine job - good stock sense, good biddability, a nice dog for anyone's farm. I also watched an Aussie win a USBCHA-sanctioned Open cattledog arena class with a stellar run in OH. Brave dog, tons of grit, a cattleman's dog. And seen an ACD that does wonderful work, who also saved his owner's life from a mother cow in their day-to-day cattledog work. Worth any amount just for that heroic deed. And I've seen a Kelpie that is a fabulous dog, with instinct, style, and biddability, and a wonderful personality, to boot.

 

A good dog is a good dog - people who dismiss a good dog for appearance/breed are no better than people who judge a dog solely on appearance in the show ring. Too bad you, Julie, have run into some of those who do not have an open mind.

 

That said, the ISDS/USBCHA-style courses are designed in general to test and showcase the Border Collie in particular - so many other very capable farm/ranch/stock breeds may show their excellence on different types of courses and challenges.

 

As for seeking an ROM (or any other goal) "just because you can" - that reminds me of someone who ran a Sheltie in a USBCHA-sanctioned Open arena sheepdog trial - and won. For the handler, it was for admittedly "for bragging rights", which I've never felt was a good reason to do anything. To me, what was the point? What you do is really only as good as why you do it, IMO.

 

Enjoy Lucy, run her when and where you want that is suitable for you both, and ignore those with closed minds and open mouths.

[Liz P]

I've run in some of the same trials you have probably run in and have never heard comments like that. In fact, I have heard the opposite, glowing remarks from people who said that they were good dogs. I even saw a kelpie win an award for the most promosing young dog. That kelpie beat a whole lot of BCs. Maybe you have just run into the few bad apples.

[Lenajo]

I ran an Aussie through Novice and then ProNovice over a period of several years and I can't remember anyone saying so much as a cross word to me.

 

Of course, I road a paint pony in dressage long before color or short was popular and never had a problem either. A few people grumbled about the kid kicking their butt, but it was in good spirits.

 

I don't know about your region of the country, but in the South and midwest where I went I found that anyone was welcome, regardless of dog breed, who had a good attitude and presented themselves in an appropriate manner. Now those that came in with a chip on their shoulder or tried to excuse sheep abuse as "because those are Border Collie sheep or <insert breed here> work style," they were made short work of.

 

I hate to hear that this is different in the NE. Hopefully your presence is changing things for the better - opening a few minds.

 

As to the ROM, as far as I know right now it's restricted to Border Collies. It used to be more open (ISDS taking full Beardies, etc) but I believe that has changed.

 

I'm fine with a Kelpie ROM. Anything that keeps this genepool wide is a good thing.

[CLW1]

I have run in many, if not all, of the same trials in the Northeast that Kelpiegirl has been to and I do think she's off base. It's not been my experience that those sort of comments are commonplace at all.

 

I recently saw the Aussie that Sue R is referring to run at a trial...a very nice worker and he was able to find the sheep on an outrun that many border collies were unable to do!

[Mark Billadeau]

While these two breeds (Border Collies and Kelpies) were developed to do similar tasks; they were not developed, tested, and selected (for breeding) to perform exactly the same tasks; which in my mind is why I would not expect either breed to excel in the other breed's trial format. It's not that I wouldn't expect either breed to be able to compete in the other breed's trial format but that the subtleties in instinct selection may not lead them to naturally excel in the other breed's trial format.

 

This history of sheep dog trials in Australia by B.M Cooper indicates the different focus of the trial formats (THE WORKING KELPIE COUNCIL OF AUSTRALIA INC).

 

Competitions between owners of sheepdogs has been a part of Australian pastoral history for over 100 years - with trials being held in Australia earlier than the 1873 Bala trial. Whilst the sport was developing in both countries at roughly the same period of time - the course and test requirements were developed differently. In the U K the trials appear to have been conducted on the commons and the dogs required to work 3 and later more commonly 5 sheep with a driving and shedding component. In Australia, possible because of the large unfenced areas, the trials took place on local Showgrounds with the dog required to 'gather' 3 sheep, not necessarily liberated on the arena, and work them through a test as directed by the judge and pen them.

 

This does not mean I wouldn't welcome and accept another breed to compete; good work is good work and the stock will be the judge of it.

[Belleview]

"Now those that came in with a chip on their shoulder or tried to excuse sheep abuse as "because those are Border Collie sheep or <insert breed here> work style," they were made short work of."

 

Well said.

 

I have a friend who ran a kelpie in the NE successfully thru Ranch (open course minus a shed) several years ago...though she didn't trial him much and no longer owns him. He got alot of positive attention. Sure, he was a bit of a novelty, but more importantly, he was a very well trained dog, good to sheep & handled nicely. Are there currently any kelpies in the NE running above NN or PN who consistently do well at trials?

 

I suspect good work attracts positive attention, and not so good, the opposite.

 

Lori Cunningham

Milton, PA

[bcnewe2]

There is a pretty strong contingent of folks out there that believe only the Border Collie can/should excel in Border Collie trials (sic), and that it must be some sort of collossal fluke for say, a Kelpie to consistently do well. Comments abound

 

I've heard this same argument about bc's that are different colors. But a dog of different breeding or coloring will get glowing comments when the work shows it to be a quality dog.

The rest, is sore losser excuses.

At least that's been my experience when I'm at USBCHA trials. Sorry if your experiences haven't been as nice.

[Donald McCaig]

Ms. Megan Wrote;

 

Until you run a non-BC in BC trials, I doubt you would understand. There is a pretty strong contingent of folks out there that believe only the Border Collie can/should excel in Border Collie trials (sic), and that it must be some sort of collossal fluke for say, a Kelpie to consistently do well. Comments abound. And, anytime a Kelpie errs on the field, you can rest assured, whispers about why the dog can't do the work will start. Oh, and if the dog really flubs up, then it is considered that maybe non Border Collies shouldn't run at all. It's basically bigotry.

 

 

Phooey. Butch Larson ran a registered Kelpie at the National Finals at Oklahoma 1. In the last five or ten years I've seen some pretty good Kelpies here and I saw some tremendous Kelpies in Western Australia in 1986. Since Australian handlers believde a dog cannot outrun a Merino wether, they do very little driving and the biggest outrun at an Australian trial is very short, 100 yard or so. Consequently, I'd be surprised - but pleased - to see a Kelpie outrun 500 yards as well as Border Collies routinely do.

 

On the other hand: Kelpies start working younger and they're loose-eyed which means they don't burn out as quickly as Border Collies. If I were working inbye all day in hot weather I'd rather have a Kelpie than a Border Collie.

 

Like most Border Collie trialers, I'm delighted to see other breeds that can handle sheep kindly and efficiently. The Kelpies, Beardies, McNabs and Australian Shepherds are gene pools we may one need to draw upon.

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

Donald,

 

A minor correction, Ms Megan did not write that statement, Kelpiegirl did.

[juliepoudrier]

I always understood ROM to be a program for people with unregistered members of the breed of dog of the registry in question (in this case ABCA) to be able to get a good dog registered so that it's offspring might also be registered. In other words, it's a way of including unregistered (for whatever reason) dogs into the gene pool. The one person I know personally who ROMed a dog had to provide evidence of the dog's breeding/ancestry to the best of her ability, which makes it seem to me that the unstated purpose of ROM is to include dogs of the same breed in a registry. Beardies are an exception as someone else noted because before the KC co-opted the breed it was simply considered another coat variation among border collies. So I really don't understand why someone would want to ROM a dog that is already registered with a breed registry.

 

The issue of needing to expand a too-small gene pool is a separate one. I see no problem with including good working examples from other breeds in the gene pool if there ever came a time when the working genetics were being compromised by too small a gene pool. In that case it would make sense for me to either ROM the parents or ROM the crossbred offspring, but this is a situation of ROMing for a real genetic need and not just "because we can." I think if a dog of another breed is good enough tobe ROMed, then it's probably good enough to go out and do well on the trial field, and frankly, for those who want to prove something, ISTM it would be much more satisfying to take home the prize money or get the USBCHA points and go to the finals than to be able to ROM my dog.

 

As for other breeds and USBCHA trials, IME people are impressed by good work, no matter what the breed. Cattiness seems to result from people with attitudes (on both sides), and certainly people who are really competitive might say something (sore loser effect) if they are beaten by someone else's dog, whether a border collie or some other breed. But that's not the same as saying the border collie community is wholesale ugly about other breeds competing in USBCHA. In fact, I think that as a community we pride ourselves on the fact that we don't exclude any dog that can do the work--hence the open trial.

 

J.

[workindogs]

I know of two handlers in District 1 that have run their Kelpies in Open over the past 5 years. There is a lady running a very nice Australian Shepherd in PN (Open Ranch in East). I've never known anyone to be anything but happy to see these dogs on the field.

 

There is an Open handler in CA that used to run his German Shepherd in PN (Open Ranch in East).....I think the dog had difficulty with the outrun but got there and was a lovely driving dog.

 

My first year attending Nursery Finals a fellow range a kelpie at the Nationals.....it didn't go so well (and it didn't for me either), but the dog had earned a place there and everyone was interested to see what it could do.

[kelpiegirl]

Carolyn

I can only attest to what I have heard said by *some* people. I will say that just as many people have been supportive to seeing other breeds running, when they do well. I had heard that there were more kelpies running out west.... On the east coast, there are not many running. One bitch, who just ran in Perryville, named Nara, is quite nice (runs in open). As to the comments, these are not said to my face, but from person to person, not announced.

 

I am not painting, or at least I am not trying to paint the world with the same brush, I am only relaying some experiences I have heard of/seen.

 

Do you run a Kelpie?

 

Wow that is certainly the downer side of looking at things. Has it occured to you that there are not as many ( actually almost noe where I live in the western states ) that run a kelpie on these types of courses? They can enter up as well as a border collie, as can any breed for that matter. These are not "BC trials", they are sheepdog trials, or cattle, etc trials

 

At this time in the areas where I trial there is one lovely Kelpie trialing and I feel making great strides, especially considering her owner is a novice. Funny I never hear the kind of remarks you state are said when this man runs his Kelpie. Maybe I hang around with a higher class of people at these trials than you have spoken about.

I feel your explanation is too simple, although this may be what what you have seen or heard of.

Please do not paint the trial world with your brush.

Carolyn

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Sue

Thanks. I have had lots of support from my compadres when running Lucy. Lucy is one of those dogs who can look VERY good and um, not so good at almost the same time She is one single dog, and judging the breed on one, or even a few dogs, just doesn't work. I hope I haven't given the impression that I have felt unwelcome- that's patently not true. I can't list the # of folks (and not a few a big hats) that have been nothing if not 100% supportive. Of course in any sport, there are purists. Lucy is just wearing chaps, that's all.

 

 

I have to agree with Carolyn that, at least where I have been to trials (VA, OH, and KY primarily) that dogs of other breeds have been "judged" by the work they do, not by appearance or breed per se. I was very impressed by an Aussie at the Bluegrass (last year, I think) who did a very fine job - good stock sense, good biddability, a nice dog for anyone's farm. I also watched an Aussie win a USBCHA-sanctioned Open cattledog arena class with a stellar run in OH. Brave dog, tons of grit, a cattleman's dog. And seen an ACD that does wonderful work, who also saved his owner's life from a mother cow in their day-to-day cattledog work. Worth any amount just for that heroic deed. And I've seen a Kelpie that is a fabulous dog, with instinct, style, and biddability, and a wonderful personality, to boot.

 

A good dog is a good dog - people who dismiss a good dog for appearance/breed are no better than people who judge a dog solely on appearance in the show ring. Too bad you, Julie, have run into some of those who do not have an open mind.

 

That said, the ISDS/USBCHA-style courses are designed in general to test and showcase the Border Collie in particular - so many other very capable farm/ranch/stock breeds may show their excellence on different types of courses and challenges.

 

As for seeking an ROM (or any other goal) "just because you can" - that reminds me of someone who ran a Sheltie in a USBCHA-sanctioned Open arena sheepdog trial - and won. For the handler, it was for admittedly "for bragging rights", which I've never felt was a good reason to do anything. To me, what was the point? What you do is really only as good as why you do it, IMO.

 

Enjoy Lucy, run her when and where you want that is suitable for you both, and ignore those with closed minds and open mouths.

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks- it is good to hear this

 

I know of two handlers in District 1 that have run their Kelpies in Open over the past 5 years. There is a lady running a very nice Australian Shepherd in PN (Open Ranch in East). I've never known anyone to be anything but happy to see these dogs on the field.

 

There is an Open handler in CA that used to run his German Shepherd in PN (Open Ranch in East).....I think the dog had difficulty with the outrun but got there and was a lovely driving dog.

 

My first year attending Nursery Finals a fellow range a kelpie at the Nationals.....it didn't go so well (and it didn't for me either), but the dog had earned a place there and everyone was interested to see what it could do.