Raw feeders

[urge to herd]

I've got a 15 yr old who's been fed kibble all her life, and a 14 yr old who has a couple chronic health problems. Years ago, I tried the 14 yr old on a raw, balanced diet, (I used the Volhard book) and she looked/acted awful. Even though I started feeding her twice the recommended amount, she was still underweight and her coat felt awful. She just Did Not Look Right. Every dog saavy friend I had agreed with me.

 

Put her back on kibble, her weight went back up and her coat normalized. Not every dog is the same.

 

The 15 yr old has old dog issues, but her coat is gorgeous and her teeth look pretty good for an old lady.

 

As far as pricing goes, I can't find the prices that others are able to. I live about an hour north of San Francisco, and believe me, they ain't no such thing here as .50/lb meat, even in a co-op. If there is, it's being kept secret from me.

 

Ruth

[bcnewe2]

out here meat is expensive no matter where I've found it. I don't know people to go in on a co-op or that sort of thing so for now expensive kibble is cheaper than cheap raw for us.

And I just don't get Wendy's big issue with Walmart meat. I know lots of people that shop at Sams (a division of Walmart) because of their meat.

I have 2 options here, a chain grocery store, or walmarts, I really don't see a difference in meats from one to the other and having something butchered from a local farmer isn't cheap at all. I saw elk being butchered for 300$ per elk. plus hunting permits that makes elk meat quite expensive. NO one seems to hunt deer out here and we're not hunters so I'm left with looking for sales where ever I can.

 

Like I said, even expensive kibble is cheaper than meat for us.

 

I'm glad RoseAmy told us about walmart and the deal she's getting. I only hope they do it out here.

 

Wendy...all I can say is, don't eat walmart meat if it makes you happy. And I'll feed it anyday to my dogs over any kibble if I can find it at the right price. I wish I made enough money to say I never shop at walmart but that just ain't so!

[RoseAmy]

People you all need to get a life. This was never intended to become kibble vs raw. Or how much money I spend on my dog.

 

If someone will please tell me how I can delete this topic please pm me.

[jdarling]

Might as well ... since you deleted the initial post and now none of the thread makes sense. Nice.

[Conner22]

I personally don't care what someone feeds. The only concern is that its a balanced diet.

For inexperienced raw people, trying to PROVIDE a balance feeding only cheap walmart meat is just as bad as feeding unbalanced dog food.

I dont care if you find the most expensive piece of lamb, if you feed too much Meat vs bone vs organ- its not balanced. now add in days old food, with even less nutrition. Balance *that*.

Thus why crazy Raw feeders CARE! Feeding poor nutrition is a very bad reflection on what raw is. and can cause just as many health problems- especially for a GROWING puppy.

I personally KNOW of a rescue (well known) and some breeders who've had SUCH a bad result with Raw, they actually don't sell, or give dogs to homes with Raw (or at least HIGHLY discourage it). I will NOT name names.

[bcnewe2]

Shaneen

Can you site a study where "aged" meat loses in nutrients? I do not think meat that isn't spoiled has any sugnifiant loss in nutrients, but I could be wrong. link this site is from MNU and it says nothing about meat losing it's nutrients.

Yes someone uneducated in raw feeding might run into some problems but I really don't think it would be due to old meat. More the balance part might be the issue.

 

If you have any idea what they put into kibble then I think feeding meat that's almost or slightly expired would still be much better. at least that's my opinion.

[sandyleew]

I looked into this program and it looks like zoos are using it. It seems to me that if the meat wasn't of good nutritional value that zoos would not be feeding it. Just saying...

[Conner22]

Aged Organ meat- the main source of alot of vitamins/minerals. Organ meat is more volatile than muscle meat, breaks down faster, looses nutritional value faster. Enzyme activity does not stop even after slaughter. In the meat this causes the protein to break down (which is not necessarily a bad thing for predators) and why old meat can be used still.

Exposure to air, and enzyme activity eats away nutritional values, and any food with more bacteria in it also has nutritional quality compromised. Simpy because bacteria EATS the nutrition- such as taurine, etc. Bacteria is present in higher quantitiy in meat/organs as time goes by. Meat already has a short shelf life- approx 2 weeks at best.

the attatched document is simply information on what happens to meat as it is slaughtered, effects of diet and slaughtering. Effects of refridration/freezing, etc.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0562e/T0562E01....Acknowledgments

 

The effect of using enzymes on organs to improve meat tenderization. All I really care about is the fact that enzymes over time render organ meat useless nutritionally, and organ meat is the first effected. And always remember that enzymes are not destroyed, they are slowed down by refridration or freezing.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic...p;#entry1567099

[Conner22]

Be very careful when you use "what zoos are using" as proof that its adequate nutrition. One of the biggest problems plaguing many zoos is reproductive success, of which nutrition plays a major roll. Some predators CAN live successfully off of older meat but always remember that most predators only eat this in the wild when nothing else is available, and the first thing any good predator eats (of course highest nutrition too) is organ meat. If they are the type to return to a kill days after (many do) like your big cats or wolves, remember that its the MEAT thats left over. Organ meat would not survive several days, its the first thing broken down by enzymes. Again, the balance is key. While most older meat is fine, you still have to supplement heavily (zoos do) with vitamins/minerals. Then add in bioavalibility of vitamins/minerals in Vitamin tabs vs actual source (say liver) and again, you loose with the supplements.

No offense, in both my lines of work Nutritionist are used, and I have little respect for many "ADEQUATE" nutrition practices. In prison we HAVE to feed nutrionally adequate- and I DARE you to come live off of our food for any period of time. Haha.

[Conner22]

I am never one to criticize Kibble. First there is a huge variation within kibble quality, so I hate using "kibble" as a term.

But in my mind, each dog/human is an individual. What works best for each is different. Some people do very well eating alot of grain, some don't.

Dogs from what I've seen are similar- what works for one may not work for another.

Then add in quality of life.

I honestly believe that 80% of homes out there feed kibble provide excellent homes for their dogs, until the dog dies. So quality of life, hands down, goes to loving home vs food fed.

The dog cares more that he has a family than what food he eats, and many dogs live very old with not much health concerns on EITHER raw or kibble.

Do not misinterpret the effect of obesity on health, but that you can get from ANY food. Not just kibble, but is more predominate in kibble fed dogs. Unfortunately skewering these results is the fact that a majority of dogs are FED kibble. And many raw proponents have dogs that work (low fat dogs no matter what they eat).

[rushdoggie]

The dog cares more that he has a family than what food he eats, and many dogs live very old with not much health concerns on EITHER raw or kibble.

 

EXACTLY. Well said!

 

arguing about who the better dog owner is is silly.

 

Do not misinterpret the effect of obesity on health, but that you can get from ANY food. Not just kibble, but is more predominate in kibble fed dogs. Unfortunately skewering these results is the fact that a majority of dogs are FED kibble. And many raw proponents have dogs that work (low fat dogs no matter what they eat).

 

Yup. I have a very fat dog who is raw fed. My DH has a real issue dispensing the tiny amount she needs per meal (shes a tiny dog...he says: but its only 1 oz! she says: I'm starving!) and therefore shes fat. Eating too much of any food equals obesity.

[RoseAmy]

EXACTLY. Well said!

 

arguing about who the better dog owner is is silly.

Yup. I have a very fat dog who is raw fed. My DH has a real issue dispensing the tiny amount she needs per meal (shes a tiny dog...he says: but its only 1 oz! she says: I'm starving!) and therefore shes fat. Eating too much of any food equals obesity.

 

FYI this thread had nothing to do with who is the better owner..OR kibble vs raw. It was just an FYI for anyone who was interested. I have no idea how we got off on zoo's not feeding right etc.

 

Sorry this has caused such a stir.

 

Like I said I will gladly delete it if someone will tell me how.

[jdarling]

Why are you apologizing for "caus[ing] a stir"? This is a public forum. People will have differing opinions. Some will agree with you, and some won't. And threads morph on to other topics. It's the nature of the beast. So what. Relax.

[Lenajo]

Wendy,

 

Where are your facts to substantiate that Wal-mart meat is worse than rotting roadkill?

 

I believe my quote was that it was better than the junk barrel at Walmart - please do quote me correctly

 

In terms of roadkill - rotting it would be full of bacteria, but not preservatives or chemicals. It would have one source - wild to "table"

 

Most Walmart meat is injected with varying substances to increase taste, preserve it, etc. You can observe that on the label. The last time I bought steaks there I was appalled when I read the label and you can't tell when it's done (medium/ med well etc) by looking because of additives to that keep the meat pink unless you just burn it to a crisp.

 

Also Walmost meat has been through many hands - farmer, feedlot, slaughterhouse, shipper, distribution center. Even extra set of hands presents opportunity for contamination.

 

When you add outdated spoilage end storage not regulated for human consumption, (hence those getting Walmart outdates having to sign a release) the risk of problem becomes greater.

 

I have no interest in feeding rotting roadkill to my dogs, but I do considerate it better than spoilage products from any national chain. Frankly if those were my choices I'd go buy a quality kibble.

[CLW1]

Well, after a day out working dogs I was interested to see what this thread had evolved (devolved?) into.

 

I am more than happy to stand by my choices for feeding my dogs. I'm an experienced raw feeder and I know that my dogs are getting the right balance in their diet, even if a good portion of their food is coming from that big-box store (as part of the co-op I get food from, I can't name where we get the meat).

 

I'd love to know where these magical places are where raw food is so cheap because I'd move there in an instant. In the real world, it's pretty rare to get anything for under $1/lb unless it's chicken or turkey necks - at least that's been my experience. Getting what I get for $.20/lb (actually less because I always end up with more than I've paid for) suits me just fine and I have yet to find anything that is spoiled or even past the expiration date and most of the time it's still frozen when I get it. Works for me.

[bcnewe2]

I'd love to know where these magical places are where raw food is so cheap because I'd move there in an instant. In the real world, it's pretty rare to get anything for under $1/lb unless it's chicken or turkey necks - at least that's been my experience.

 

That'd be my problem too! But $.20/lb sounds way doable.

 

When someone says roadkill I think of things long dead on the side of the road. I'd gladly feed "roadkill" like a freshly hit deer or other animal but by the time I run across them they are not looking anything like fresh. Plus there's the part where I haven't graduated into butchering my own meat, much less roadkill. I do have a sawza waiting but just can't seem to get the gumption up to do it!

[Conner22]

I live in the Tri-state (PA, NY, OH near Lake Erie) area. Meat is not very expensive here. We have a place called "farmers market" where you buy meat for around or less than $1/lb and up. It has a huge selection of fresh meats/organs including fish, they process the meat how you ask. No additives. Lots and Lots of fresh food.

I have a lot of butchers here, and they have a bit of a free selection, and organ meat is super cheap. They also sell huge boxes of dog bones for $5.

Alot of hunters in area, meaning free tidbits from hunting season- necks, bones, scraps....

Chicken necks go for about 20 cents /lb here too.

I personally feed "specially raised" from hare-today.com (i pick up since i'm local) and morigins. Morigins is not cheap ($3/lb) but its not expensive! And its range fed high quality. Hare-today always has some nice specials, and pretty big selection.

 

Walmart here isnt that cheap compared to farmers market, and its quality is way less, and yeah, they add all sorts of additives.

 

My brother lives in MT, knows butchers, and gets a TON of freebies for his dog. I dont even think they actually PAY for raw at all, its pretty much all free.

 

Lucky us????

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Roadkill, even rotting, is better than the junk barrel at Walmart.

 

you can't discuss *where* to find food, without looking at the merits of whether it is worth the cost/risk/work.

 

you keep saying that kibble killed your dog - elaborate please.

 

Wendy,

 

Let me rephase this.....where are your facts to substantiate where you state "Roadkill, even rotting, is better than the junk barrel at Walmart."

 

And what is your definition of "junk barrel?"

 

Diane

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I recently got hooked up with a local cattleman to supply me with organ meat and bones from a very cheap rate or free. If free, I'll get some some good beer.

 

Has anyone raised chickens for their personal consumption? Or to feed their dogs? What breed did you rasie and was it worth it?

 

Diane

[juliepoudrier]

Diane,

On the chicken raising, I'm doing it now, but since I haven't yet got anything old enough to butcher, I don't know how it will work out. Basically I'll be culling roosters, and since most of the time you can't even give them away, I plan to butcher and freeze for both the human and the dogs. I'm raising mainly dual-purpose heritage or rare breeds. These are the birds that will have better flavor than the factory farmed breeds. Plus since they are generally the old-time farmyard breeds, they tend to be personable. My dogs and I also get to partake of fresh eggs. For that alone, I think the chickens are worth it. I can sell the eggs from the full-size chickens, but my Old English Game bantams are quite prolific egg layers, and since their eggs are small, I just generally use their eggs for the dogs and keep the full size eggs for human consumption (except for any full-size eggs that happen to get dirty--the dogs get those too). Because eggs are my main production out of these chickens, I chose breeds based on good egg production, good egg size, or interesting colors (e.g., the marans lay a dark chocolate-colored egg).

 

As for whether it's worth it, I like having free-range chickens. They really help keep the insect population, including fleas and ticks, down; they spread manure; they fertilize; they can entertain--and be worked by dogs; and they produce stuff to eat. So even aside from the possibility of eating them, there are lots of advantages to having them. Because they free range, they also don't require a lot of feed, so my feed expenses are low (though I do keep a layer feed and oyster shell out for them). They will also take snakes and rodents so can be helpful in the vermin control department as well.

 

The breeds I currently have are Rhode Island Reds (my main egg layers), Dominiques, Marans, Jersey Giants, and a couple of Araucanas (for blue eggs). I also have a pair of Barnevelders simply because they aren't common and I think they're beautiful birds, even if they aren't prolific layers. And I have a gazillion mutt OEG bantams and a few Sebright bantams just as pets/barnyard decorations (= eggs for the dogs). Oh and a pair of guinea fowl that decided to emigrate from my neighbor's farm and take up residence here.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Wendy,

 

Let me rephase this.....where are your facts to substantiate where you state "Roadkill, even rotting, is better than the junk barrel at Walmart."

 

And what is your definition of "junk barrel?"

 

Diane

 

Down here the outdated stuff is usually piled into a barrel in the back and marked for disposal. Basically it's trash - legally unsellable. It's the big box's store "junk" - they don't want it, but if sign away your ability to sue them if it makes your pet sick you can have it.

 

Roadkill is an animal killed on the highway. The only contamination of your typical roadkill is going to be what hit it and the time elapses for enzymatic activity/insect contamination.

 

Big box store meat has injected chemicals and fillers that are listed on the label to make the meat tastier, retain color and sellable appearance. Like the steaks I just bought that stay pink at all cooking temps short of burn. Chicken and turkey have various products injected to make them moister or tastier. Most are listed on the label if you look, but some are considered normal and you can find them on food research websites.

 

These products are "supposed" to be scientifically safe for human consumption when cooked. We have no idea what they do if they are outdated, or if they are eaten uncooked/outdated. There is also the issue since the Big Box considers them junk product, that they will be stored with other outdated meats like fish or shellfish. Outdated shellfish scares the crud out of me professionally and personally - its a recipe for some deadly illnesses.

 

When comparing what is in either meat, ***IF I had no choice except those 2*** to feed my dog I would pick the roadkill. Most healthy dogs have the stomach to deal with that sort of stuff (proven by the stuff they eat when we don't pay attention <sigh LOL>) that's in the roadkill. I don't think I'd want to risk the chemical combo or other risk factors of outdated big box stuff thats labeled unfit for human consumption.

 

~~~

Regarding the chickens I've raised them for human consumption and eggs. I may increase that scale to include some dog food this summer. Would prefer to find a free ranger raiser who'd let me have the frames and necks for cheap - working on that.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I stopped by the WalMart near my work and asked about their junk barrel. They do not have a junk barrel. The manager said out dated meat gets tossed out and not sold- liability. They put their outdated meat in the garbage bin and lock it. He never heard of a junk barrel.

 

 

I have chickens but was interested in raising CornishX as meat for me as well as the dogs. How hard are they to raise and where you do get them? How about slaughter? I have no interest in processing them but will pay someone to do it. Have any of you done that and the cost?

 

Diane

[juliepoudrier]

Diane,

The halal butcher I use also processes chickens, but I find it cost prohibitive. It would be effective if I had *a lot* of chickens, but for the numbers most folks would raise in their backyards, you're not likely to find a butcher that can do it for you cheaply enough. You might be able to find a local person--hunter or old-timer who has plenty of experience butchering chickens--and just pay them to do it.

 

J.

[Ooky]

I remember staying with my greatgrandmother as a kid. Man, at 90 yo that woman could still kill a chicken at 9 am and have it fried on the table for lunch, along with other courses.

 

I've plucked and cleaned birds mainly for dissections, and I am SLOOOOW. If I ever get to have chickens I hope I get much faster at it! I hope I can learn to kill as swiftly and humanely as she did, too.

[JohnLloydJones]

I remember staying with my greatgrandmother as a kid. Man, at 90 yo that woman could still kill a chicken at 9 am and have it fried on the table for lunch, along with other courses.

That reminds me of the grandmother at a farm in Norway, who was in charge of the hens and would do that too -- along with washing the milking churns and assorted other little jobs. Oh, but she was younger -- I think she only 87.