Tell me about pack structure?

[ejano]

The post where Rue was eventually re homed really hit home tonight. Robin and Brodie have been getting along famously and then tonight after calmly playing together and separately for over three hours, they went out very quickly because Robin was getting sick all over the carpet. They came in just as quickly, barreling back down the stairs to the TV room, jockying for position around me and all of a sudden all hell broke lose in a physical fight.

 

I swatted them with a large pillow, roaring at the top of my lungs to separate them, and they immediately broke off and Robin immediately lay down and looked straight up at me, indicating he knows who rules the world. (Remember that come to Jesus thing), Brodie ran behind Ken, baring his teeth. He got hauled out from from there pretty fast let me tell you and received a repeat lecture. He didn't give over like Robin did but crouched more in fear. I didn't want to reassure him for behaving badly so I just glared at him then turned to ignore him. Once we'd all calmed down I marched them both upstairs, side by side and into their crates without a problem.

 

I can't figure out what the trigger is - other than the excitement of rushing inside and jockeying for position around us. Did Brodie think he could get a leg up because Robin was sick? Is Ken really the house marshmallow because Brodie runs and jumps on his lap and bares his teeth?

 

What is going wrong? 99.9% of the time these dogs like each other and get on well.

 

Liz

[Shetlander]

This sounds like an ongoing issue between the two and one that is likely to continue as they mature. The big issues between Quinn and my Lhasa came to a head as Quinn neared his second birthday. Quinn will be 5 in June and I still need to manage those two carefully and try hard to be proactive. It may be that Robin being under the weather somehow changed the situation -- whether because Brodie was taking advantage of Robin's changed state of health or Robin was crabby because he didn't feel well or a combination of the two. It could also have been the excitement, rushing and jostling of coming back inside. One of the areas I need to pay attention to with my two dopes is exiting, especially going out to the backyard. If they are too keyed up, I make them do a sit stay until I feel they are in a calmer state of mind. I then either release them seperately or together. Writing this, I realize that I haven't had to do this as much lately. I think they're learning to be less ramped up in that situation. I hope so.

 

I can't comment on Ken's marshmellow status, but I'd think that Brodie felt he was safer by Ken, if he ran to him and then felt courageous enough to bare his teeth. Like he thought he had a power base or something.

 

I hope the crates aren't too close to each other. That might not be helpful to them settling and getting their minds off their rivalry.

[ejano]

This sounds like an ongoing issue between the two and one that is likely to continue as they mature. The big issues between Quinn and my Lhasa came to a head as Quinn neared his second birthday. Quinn will be 5 in June and I still need to manage those two carefully and try hard to be proactive. It may be that Robin being under the weather somehow changed the situation -- whether because Brodie was taking advantage of Robin's changed state of health or Robin was crabby because he didn't feel well or a combination of the two. It could also have been the excitement, rushing and jostling of coming back inside. One of the areas I need to pay attention to with my two dopes is exiting, especially going out to the backyard. If they are too keyed up, I make them do a sit stay until I feel they are in a calmer state of mind. I then either release them seperately or together. Writing this, I realize that I haven't had to do this as much lately. I think they're learning to be less ramped up in that situation. I hope so.

 

I can't comment on Ken's marshmellow status, but I'd think that Brodie felt he was safer by Ken, if he ran to him and then felt courageous enough to bare his teeth. Like he thought he had a power base or something.

 

I hope the crates aren't too close to each other. That might not be helpful to them settling and getting their minds off their rivalry.

 

Their crates are side by side but they can't see each other. I've been sitting here for an hour, catching up on some work, waiting to see if Robin got sick again. They were calm by the time they came into the study and both fell into a snooze pretty quickly. I just brought them out one by one, then together for some petting and handshaking, that kind of thing and they were just fine. They're back in their crates, snoozing away. Honestly, I think these exchanges bother me more than them! I just don't understand where they're coming from.

 

Your suggestion of letting them go out separately and monitoring the interactions at times when they'd be excited is a good one and we've been following that. I will redouble my efforts, and continue to work on Brodie's reactivity..perhaps separating him from Ladybug will help too...we were careful to not let him and Robin bond, but in the process he bonded way to closely to Ladybug (Who wasn't anywhere around when this happened. She has a way of absenting herself from trouble. )

 

I guess Robin's okay -- I'm going to bed too!

 

 

ETA -

PS -- they've stopped chasing the cat for the most part and line up nicely to take turns catching items. After just about a week, all three wait their turn and no one grabs for the other's item. I've been working on one sitting and then calling the other and will start to employ this when going out the door. I typically release one, and then wait a few minutes, and then let the other go. WHichever one is first, waits there like a dope for the other one then they run up to the fenceline to pee before having a good chase around the yard. I step in just before things get rough and they are playing together much better...sigh....this is harder than raising kids. Kids you can talk to, eventually. But then, you can't put kids in crates.

[SincereArtisan]

A lot of sudden excitement can cause a dog to become more reactive...in a sense it will build and build until they have to take it out on something. When that something happens to be a pack mate with which there are fuzzy boundaries regarding dominance...well, one wrong move or nip can escalate very quickly, as you witnessed.

 

Now, whether it was one stepping on the other's toes, a misplaced nip, one laying across the other's shoulders, what have you...I would pinpoint the issue at hand during the hubbub while they were 'jockying for position.' Two overstimulated dogs (who are already butting heads for dominance) in close quarters competing for attention = TROUBLE.

 

In the future, I would teach them to cool their game a bit, teach them to enter and exit calmly. No more barreling around the house and such, especially when there is going to be competition for food/attention/toys. Teach them the importance of taking turns for what they want, in addition to NILIF.

 

I currently run a household with 4 female dogs. I'm certain that if I allowed them to reach the point of over-excitement and over-stimulation while playing indoors there would be bloodshed. Too little space, for one, for there not to be dogs bumping pell nell into one another and pissing each other off. For another, with me as the sole provider for entertainment/attention/affection there is GOING to be competition. Thus, I do not encourage them to be bouncing off the walls excited where all those factors can enter into a dangerous equation. Its different when they are rough housing in the back yard. They have room to give one another space when some one gets offended. If toys are involved, I monitor the use of them to be sure they play fair.

[pammyd]

I agree with the others here

The fact they split up when you yelled and they had been playing so excitedly just sounds like they got a little too hyper and possibly someone nipped a bit harder than they ment to and as they dont 100% trust each other then the nip turned into a scuffle

I wouldnt read too much into what happend after, they were both high as kites from excitment and the fight

 

Different I know as mine arnt the same sex but Mia and Ben used to fight constantly to start with, I really thought I wouldnt be ale to keep her and she spent much of her time in her crate

I was v proactive only letting them out together when they were calm, splitting them up as soon as there was any hard stairing or tense body language and not letting them play too much

 

Over time they learnt to be calm with each other, they now sleep ontop of each other, respect each other when they are eating and can play like crazy pups and calm it down theirselves if a nip is too much

[pammyd]

FOrgot to add

Last summer I had my friends dog stay for a month, I was a little scared about how Mia was going to be about this, when my friend came round to drop off the dog we had a fight right off

But with careful managment I managed the rest of the month with no fights at all, they learnt v quickly when I said 'BED' they ran off to their own places to have some chill time

 

- I was extra scared because he was a staffy cross so a fight could have been nasty, and my charming naighbours called the dog warden saying I was holding dogfights when they were playing so I had to make them play quietly

[AmandaMJL]

Lots of great advice in this thread. I've been through a similar situation. My rescue Jack, if he gets too excited used to and grab Moth's neck. Moth would never (thankfully) react to Jack. I've worked with Jack for the past 2 years since we rescued him and things are MUCH better. I've redirected him to do some control work when situations may become a bit "excited". This was the ONLY time I see that attitude with him/Moth - a knock on the door, a deer in the yard, etc. It is definitely a workable issue in most cases, but can take alot of time, patience and consistency. Good luck!

[ejano]

A lot of sudden excitement can cause a dog to become more reactive...in a sense it will build and build until they have to take it out on something. When that something happens to be a pack mate with which there are fuzzy boundaries regarding dominance...well, one wrong move or nip can escalate very quickly, as you witnessed.

 

 

In the future, I would teach them to cool their game a bit, teach them to enter and exit calmly. No more barreling around the house and such, especially when there is going to be competition for food/attention/toys. Teach them the importance of taking turns for what they want, in addition to NILIF.

 

This is excellent advice...I know Brodie is trying to make a move up the ladder, but it just isn't going to happen. Robin won't let him. I was watching a video last night about pack dominance and he's the perfect picture of an alpha. Flops down whereever he wants, takes whatever he wants in terms of toys and food--we've observed this ever since he was a tiny pup. He's just got to learn good leadership skills....and stop being too pesky with Brodie. Give him a break., That's why we take them to separate activities. Brodie is oriented toward sheep; RObin toward obedience rally...at least that's the plan.

 

but what's NILIF?

 

Liz

[Lizmo]

but what's NILIF?

 

Liz

 

Nothing In Life Is Free. Meaning, they must work for everything they get. They want a treat? They must do a command. They want inside or outside? They must sit before doing so. They want there food bowl? They sit/down/whatever before getting it. Things like that.

[coyotecreek]

ejano

 

Ive found that excitment can definantly "heighten" a dog's reactivity..and the dog has to "release" the energy he has..kind of like an owner trying to "pull" their dog off of another dog...the pulling increases the excitment and the dog may potentialy "lash out" at the handler..if that makes sense?

 

There is a time for structured play, and you must oversee this and make sure that the exctiment doesnt result in another "fight". Any other time, overexcitment should be kept in check...

 

this is a big reason I make my dogs sit and wait before I allow them to eat....Kate, and this is probably due to being a shelter pup..will become snappy at Lulu..shes even bared her teeth one time..by lessening the excitment of getting fed, I am controling their energy and thus, the situation. so if Kate decides to become snappy, I can immediatly step in and "restore" the peace.

 

Sarah

[ejano]

Nothing In Life Is Free. Meaning, they must work for everything they get. They want a treat? They must do a command. They want inside or outside? They must sit before doing so. They want there food bowl? They sit/down/whatever before getting it. Things like that.

 

Thanks -- I'm not quite up on all the texting abbreviations...We do that for treats, but the inside/outside thing need work.

 

THanks all for your reassurance....and I will be more vigilant and employ all of your suggestions.

 

I know these things do get worked out with time and attention. Last night was particularly upsetting because I was worried about Robin, plus my neiece was coming today with her baby and we'd JUST cleaned the whole downstairs carpets!

 

Robin's never been sick but he eats like a goat, so I was worried about a bowl obstruction....he seems fine today and they're both happy go lucky mutts.

 

Liz

[bc4pack]

Thanks -- I'm not quite up on all the texting abbreviations...We do that for treats, but the inside/outside thing need work.

 

 

 

Liz

 

Actually I see NILIF as just 'good manners'...so as to learn to defer to you. No force or coersion,just basic 'ground rules for expected behavior' ie 'Say Please.'

 

Simple things like expecting a dog to 'sit' before you put a bowl down or expecting a dog to 'wait' at the door until released.

Ever read Pat McConnell's booklet "Feeling Outnumbered"?

[Journey]

This sounds like the beginning of a lifetime of a "divided house". I think you should go back and read some of the suggestions that were given when you first brought/bought 2 littermates into the house. Crating them side by side, whether they can see each other or not, would be the first thing to change. I don't think this is a case where someone can tell you about "pack structure" (we've done that before), the dynamics change all the time if you are not on top of it and have complete and absolute "management", it won't always be "excitement" that sets them off.....

[ejano]

This sounds like the beginning of a lifetime of a "divided house". I think you should go back and read some of the suggestions that were given when you first brought/bought 2 littermates into the house. Crating them side by side, whether they can see each other or not, would be the first thing to change. I don't think this is a case where someone can tell you about "pack structure" (we've done that before), the dynamics change all the time if you are not on top of it and have complete and absolute "management", it won't always be "excitement" that sets them off.....

 

As you may recall, the initial responders jumped on me with both feet when I introduced myself with two pups, not giving me credit for any kind of brains when in fact we had researched the question and talked with a number of professional dog handlers and trainers, all of them dealing with Border Collies who have given and continue to give us good advice because they know us and know the dogs and their ancestry. Of course, I was pretty ill at the time and didn't explain myself all that well. But then, we've done all this before....

 

Since that time, I've gotten some good advice from some pretty well meaning folks, and the ideas in this thread are appropriate to this on and off difficulty, which I believe with time and attention will improve. It's often difficult to thoroughly explain (or indeed respond) to any given situation or problem posted on the boards though I've for the most part gotten great advice and by piecing together various answers have found a solution that works for the problem I'm trying to solve.

 

Like parenting, raising pups is an adventure that is different for everyone. Our crating situation isn't perfect and is definitely due for an upgrade, which we are working on, but its as good as it can be and responds to the need for them to not be able to stare at each other. They don't posture at each other in their crates, they snooze without a squeak passing between them. If I thought the crating was a problem, I'd change it. In fact, I'm with them in the same room most of the time they're crated and nearby if I'm not actually in the room, so I'd know it if there were problems. In fact, I'm wondering now if some of these current issues are because I am giving them increasing freedom and time out of their crates now that we've gone beyond the shredding/piddling/chasing the cat stages. They need to learn to adapt to the changing situation.

 

I don't recall asking any previous questions about pack structure, though I'm sure it has indeed been discussed at various times on this board. My current curiosity is related to leadership - for example, in my Business Com classes, we discuss leadership theory in relation to serving on committees, presenting new ideas, etc. I'm looking at Robin, who is an obvious leader by temperament and most actions, but I'm thinking that he's young and hasn't learned that to be a true leader one must have followers, which he is sadly lacking at the moment. Ladybug does her own thing and pokes her little nose in only when the pups are misbehaving and Brodie really doesn't want to be a follower, though in my estimation, he's a little too nervy to be a leader. So, both pups are frustrated in their roles and act out against each other.

 

 

Based on my observations, the overriding suggestion on this thread - that excitement is the current trigger - is on target, but I can see where sniping can become a bad habit -- one that is not limited to canines.

 

 

Liz

[hsnrs]

My girls do that sometimes. Basically we ignore them and go about our business. If it gets really bad DH shoots his gun in the air and they stop the fights or whatever hyper activity they are doing.

[Maralynn]

Kipp has reactive tendencies when he gets worked up. Thankfully the other two don't and Kipp has no aspirations to be a leader. I've also worked with him quite a bit so I can redirect pretty easily if I see him getting too worked up. If I had 2 reactive dogs or another jockeying for pack position, especially young ones, I'd be rotating them with crating and working on a very consistent NILIF system on a one on one basis around the house until they had matured a bit more. I'd have them sit and chill before anything - going outside, coming inside, games of fetch - you name it and I'd be using it as an opportunity to teach the a bit of self control! It's much easier to teach/reinforce this one on one as opposed to trying to do it with two dogs at once, hence the crate rotating!

[Lenajo]

Based on my observations, the overriding suggestion on this thread - that excitement is the current trigger - is on target, but I can see where sniping can become a bad habit -- one that is not limited to canines.

Liz

 

Oh yes, definately the the same. Being labeled as a "sniper" or "aggressive" is a typical unfortunate response that happens to both species when they try to tell someone the truth when they don't want to hear it.

[ejano]

Kipp has reactive tendencies when he gets worked up. Thankfully the other two don't and Kipp has no aspirations to be a leader. I've also worked with him quite a bit so I can redirect pretty easily if I see him getting too worked up. If I had 2 reactive dogs or another jockeying for pack position, especially young ones, I'd be rotating them with crating and working on a very consistent NILIF system on a one on one basis around the house until they had matured a bit more. I'd have them sit and chill before anything - going outside, coming inside, games of fetch - you name it and I'd be using it as an opportunity to teach the a bit of self control! It's much easier to teach/reinforce this one on one as opposed to trying to do it with two dogs at once, hence the crate rotating!

 

 

The rotation is a good idea as well, and one that we've employed - Brodie, I could leave out all day and he'd do nothing but snooze and occasionally come say hi if I"m working. Robin, well, he's a dog of a different color , still needing quite a bit of supervision to stay out of trouble so he's only out if I'm up and moving about the house. WHen I let them both out, together I'm up and moving and they mostly watch me, finding everything from dishes to laundry completely fascinating and waiting to go out to play and train. I also use the odd moment to get them to do their sit/lie down stays, training one to sit the other to stay when I call...that kind of thing so I hope we're on the right track.

 

But leaving them loose together roaming the house with nothing specific to do is an opportunity for Robin to start picking at Brodie, so I'll be watching that with added diligence. I want them to learn to be house dogs, and Robin knows he has a "spot" that's his -- mostly. Last night, he found the cat on his rug when he came in and flopped down -- typically, he didn't even look so imagine his surprise when he turned his head and saw her on the corner sort of grinning at him! They did quite well together. Brodie doesn't have a preferred "spot" yet, except on Ken's lap, so we're working getting him to be a "big dog" and out of that recliner.

 

For eleven month old dogs, self-control and controlling the level of excitement is definitely a needed response. They seem very susceptible to redirecting. For example, it was a problem when they come in the house, so the general rule (Sunday was an exception) is to bring them in separately then make them sit or lie down for a treat. When their focus is on me, they behave. I have every reason to believe that as they mature and with appropriate raising and training, they will settle in nicely. If they really hated each other, they'd be at it all the time.

 

I really am finding raising the two fascinating, if a great deal of work. I freely acknowledge, if I had it to think through again, I probably wouldn't have brought two home at the same time but working with them, enjoying their separate personalities and learning their separate talents has been a wonderful experience and "just what the doctor ordered" to keep me healthy and focused on questions other than my own somewhat questionable cancer recovery status. They occupy about 90% of my waking days! I also understand that should I become unable to not care for them at the level I am now, one of them -- most likely Robin, would have to be rehomed, but I pray that my good health will continue so that I may keep both of my lovely dogs.

 

No trouble yesterday...the tie outs are working nicely so each dog knows they get a turn while training and walking one past the other is helping both of them to learn to ignore and tolerate the other's passing...and last night Ladybug showed them how we pick up all our toys at the end of the evening and put them in the crate. They'll enjoy that game when they get the hang of it. Mostly now they pick out stuff when her back is turned.

 

Thanks all for the great advice, I find it both reassuring and cheering.

[Maralynn]

I have every reason to believe that as they mature and with appropriate raising and training, they will settle in nicely. If they really hated each other, they'd be at it all the time.

 

Just remember that this can go either way as they grow older. Siblings can be the best of friends or the worst of enemies. And as Liz mentioned, it doesn't truly manifest itself until they are mature. Kipp got along fine with every dog his breeder had except his brother. The breeder had a pair of sisters that where the same. At this age something can snap/trigger in one of them and you've got a major dog fight on your hands, so vigilance is a must!!

[ejano]

Just remember that this can go either way as they grow older. Siblings can be the best of friends or the worst of enemies. And as Liz mentioned, it doesn't truly manifest itself until they are mature. Kipp got along fine with every dog his breeder had except his brother. The breeder had a pair of sisters that where the same. At this age something can snap/trigger in one of them and you've got a major dog fight on your hands, so vigilance is a must!!

 

 

Thanks, Marilyn. We'll keep a very close eye on their interactions. I had read before we brought them home that, like human siblings, littermates don't necessarily grow up to like each other but for the most part, they do seem to get on fine...except in these moments of excitement. I've just got to be extra watchful for unexpected triggers and train DH to do so as well.

 

We still do have a standing offer from the breeder to take either or both back, particularly if I become ill again to the point where I can't care for them (one year scan and check up tomorrow...fingers crossed everyone!)

 

In fact, she'd probably take Brodie for a few weeks to work with him on sheep, but I'm not sure a temporary separation would do any good but we do make separate visits to the farm now to give Brodie a chance to be his own dog, so to speak and for me to totally focus on desensitizing Robin from chasing those darn guinea hens!

 

 

I really do appreciate and take to heart all of the good advice I receive on this board. My goal (Or at least I thought so at the time of their arrival) was to raise two dogs of sound temperament, who are obedient, healthy, and happy....we're getting there!

 

Liz

[Journey]

If they really hated each other, they'd be at it all the time.

 

This is about as far from the truth as you can go.

 

They don't posture at each other in their crates, they snooze without a squeak passing between them. If I thought the crating was a problem, I'd change it. In fact, I'm with them in the same room most of the time they're crated and nearby if I'm not actually in the room, so I'd know it if there were problems.

 

This is a close second! Just because you don't see it or hear it does not mean it doesn't exist. Is it "easier" for you to have them in one room? I'd be thinking of the dogs first not myself.

[Laurae]

If they really hated each other, they'd be at it all the time.

 

I just wanted to respond to this--two of my dogs absolutely cannot stand each other, but 98 percent of the time, they "get along" just fine. We all hike together, hang out at trials together, etc., but they're often communicating (and snarking) with each other on a really subtle basis. It can sometimes be difficult to see, but I've developed a pretty good eye for it over the years. So, the fact that your pups not openly warring with one another is not particularly an indicator that they are going to live in harmony for the rest of their lives. But if you take the steps--including (especially) separating their crates--outlined by the generous folks posting advice, you'll be setting yourself up for better success as they age. Good luck--living with dogs who truly hate each other is no fun at all...

[ejano]

I just wanted to respond to this--two of my dogs absolutely cannot stand each other, but 98 percent of the time, they "get along" just fine. We all hike together, hang out at trials together, etc., but they're often communicating (and snarking) with each other on a really subtle basis. It can sometimes be difficult to see, but I've developed a pretty good eye for it over the years. So, the fact that your pups not openly warring with one another is not particularly an indicator that they are going to live in harmony for the rest of their lives. But if you take the steps--including (especially) separating their crates--outlined by the generous folks posting advice, you'll be setting yourself up for better success as they age. Good luck--living with dogs who truly hate each other is no fun at all...

 

 

Understood that your two dogs tolerate each other's presence. In my case, I can't help but think that two dogs who like on their backs on the floor playing patty cake with their paws and licking each other's faces, greet each other in a friendly manner when they've been parted, and seek out each other's company at every opportunity really do like each other, but get into a scrap now and then because that's what teenagers do and they need to learn manners. If properly guided through this particular phase, which with the help of all of your suggestions, should show success and end in a peaceable kingdom.

 

These are just pups -- 11 months old today and as others have pointed out, their patterns of behavior and adult relationships are in the formative stages. I recognize that things change every week around here as far as their attitudes, behavior, and ability to learn and will continue to do so until their adult personalities are formed and even then, they might change. I feel that Brodie's reactivity is a factor as well. He doesn't like to be jostled and Robin is the 800 lb gorilla. He'll go where he wants, whatever's in the way. I've never seen a dog less concerned with his environment...except for the day he jumped on the treadmill with me. He's a little concerned about that piece of equipment now. .

 

It's been suggested that I missed a fear stage with Brodie and he got a good scare at the wrong time, which is why he has become reactive and I do believe that once he calms down, that will help this current situation too. I remember taking him to a sheep dog trial in June when he was about four months old and he just went nuts with fear. So, once a week we've been going over to the farm, meeting and greeting sheep nonchalantly, and playing with Mama. He's doing very well in that situation. I've set up a meet and greet with another Border Collie (he's not met one that isn't related) and am taking him around to meet different breeds in controlled situations. I've even found a few beagles, though I'm not allowing play yet, he's observing their play. If all goes well, he'll be starting herding lessons in May or June, which should help his confidence. He's a very happy dog around sheep now.

 

I know they are highly excitable when entering and exiting the house and jockeying for position around us and the problem is made worse beause Brodie is wired just a bit more tightly than Robin, who could care less -- Brodie seems to be fighting for attention while at the same time, fighting a rear guard action in case someone's sneaking up on him.

 

I just missed everything on Sunday and was upset. I shouldn't even have posted anything because I knew that a few would pounce on my decision to take on littermates, but I got a great deal of helpful reassurance that redirection and careful monitoring during this formative stage as the others in this thread have pointed out.

 

We are changing the crate situation. Soon, they will be in proper chain link kennels in the mudroom with barriers in between, if for no other reason than while his crate is more than adequate for his size, I like to see dogs in as big a space as possible and I feel that Brodie needs to be in a bigger crate and there's simply not room in the study. Which means, that they need to get used to house rules because I won't own a dog that I have to leave locked up and separated from me all the time, which is why as puppies they were as close to me as possible where I could talk with them while I was working or writing and hear them when they needed something in the night, or when I was resting from the effects of chemotherapy.

 

 

I understand and have read about the ferocity of dogs who don't get along in a household , which is why I was so upset Sunday night. I won't tolerate being on red alert all the time in my own house and if need be, I'll take the necessary steps. I have a standing offer from the breeder to take one or both of the pups back, especially if I get sick again. But with grace, all will be well in my peaceable little kingdom. If nothing else, I got them to stop chasing the cat this week. and they're staying off the kitchen counter ....but not the couch.

[Lenajo]

. My goal (Or at least I thought so at the time of their arrival) was to raise two dogs of sound temperament, who are obedient, healthy, and happy....we're getting there!

 

Liz

 

 

Being sound, obedient, healthy, has **nothing** to do with liking/disliking an individual dog. Do you like everyone? Want to live in close quarters with everyone? or are there some people, that give a 100% of the time relationship with who would drive you to do things you would not do under other circumstances?

 

Dogs are no different in this regard. Same age, closely related, but with different personalities can gel beautifully *rarely*, otherwise its just the Hatfield and McCoy cousins in the same house. Without *constant* management you're either going to end up an armed camp or in worst case scenario with a rehome or a funeral. As they get older the fights get worse, and even though they are quiet and obedience when the preacher and the teacher have their eye on them, all bets are off if the situation presents.

 

 

I don't understand why all the verbal baggage is being presented in response to the suggestions. For example it doesn't matter what Brodie missed, or who's "happy" around sheep (wth does that mean anyway?). Why does Brodie watching a Beagle have to do with getting along with his known housemate?

 

Lets keep this clean. You got littermates, and they are presenting the beginnings of what most of us recognize as "armed camp" potential. What to do next is up to you in the end. You've had good suggestions.

 

And btw, don't overestimate your ability to break up a serious fight. Fights that escalate over time between same age housemates over social ordercan be pretty horrific with a great deal of damage done quickly.

[stockdogranch]

jockeying for position around us

This, to me, says it all. Been there, done that. It *won't* end well. I agreee with Lenajo,

A