ejano Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hello all, went to my first puppy obedience class last night and I'm really conflicted about going back....it is an AKC sponsored class, which shouldn't make a difference, yet I think it does somehow....she did acknowledge that border collies were the smartest dogs in the world, endorsed positive training so we were off to a good start. Then, during the "walk away from your puppy exercise" she was holding the leash as I walked away and smacked Robin on the head quite soundly when he jumped on her, announcing to the class "See, he stopped." (Why didn't she go after the husky that was busily pulling his owner to the other side of the room!) I turned around and said, "He stops when we hold out a hand palm side toward him (stop signal) and say off, then sit." She has an Australian Shepherd (wearing a prong color) and thinks she knows everything about herding dogs. I spoke with her privately after class and told her not to hit my dog. She said, "Okay" without an apology. (This is the same woman that recommended a prong collar for Robin - a four month old pup!) As we began puppy play, Robin immediately started to herd the entire group, then joined in pursuit of a poor little miniature pincher who was being relentlessly chased by a couple of Shelties. The instructor announced, "Look at him herding....if my Aussie was loose, he'd have the entire group gathered in the middle of the floor." She chastised me several times for pursuing and stopping his herding, even when he and the two shelties had that poor little pup pinned in a corner. If I'd been the min pin's owner, I'd have been screaming. I explained that Robin comes from a line of top herding dogs (if he weren't red, I doubt if I'd have ended up with him) and he's serious, pointing out how he was carrying his tail low to the ground. As I calmed him (in spite of her objections), he became more playful and his tail went up like a flag and he enjoyed the play. I pointed that out too . What I know about herding dogs might fill a thimble, but If I go back (and its a big if), I want to explain to her that Robin is a young Harry Potter -he's got the power but he doesn't know how to use it and that the herding instinct basically a controlled prey drive and if unchecked a border collie allowed to follow his herding instinct indiscriminately will soon be pursuing and nipping at everything from kids to cars to a disastrous end. Because Robin does not yet know commands to stop this behavior, I have to move in and physically catch him and tell him "That will do" and reassure him until he relaxes. This leads to the other question....what commands should I be teaching him to help me control the behavior? How do I reinforce "halt", "lie down" and "come" over the excitement of the chase. He's way too excited to listen in these situations and I need to get control of that most of all. He does break off playing with his brother and come to me and he comes even when he's hiding under the pine trees in his "cave" so he is making good progress. This obedience class is the only one within forty miles of my house....is a bad obedience class better than one at all? The other puppy owners seem nice and there's a nice mix of both big and small dogs so Robin will get exposure to all kinds of breeds. There's also another border collie to hang out with - a 14 week old pup. Advice please.... Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hate to be blunt...sounds like the instructor is an idiot. If it were I would run fast. Your better off working on your own or arrange a small get together with the min pin owner. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat W. Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I would run not walk away from this class, the instructor definately is not the brightest bulb in the box - to put it politely. NO obedience class at all is better than a bad one in my opinion. You can do far better on your own with a couple of books and a dvd or two to work from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 This obedience class is the only one within forty miles of my house....is a bad obedience class better than one at all? The other puppy owners seem nice and there's a nice mix of both big and small dogs so Robin will get exposure to all kinds of breeds. There's also another border collie to hang out with - a 14 week old pup. Would yo let you r children take a class from this gal? A bad class is a bad class. All it can do in the long rin is set your dog up for failure. I went through several trainers including Bark Master before I found a trainer I could trust. Personally I would get my money back and walk away from that trainer in 2 seconds then I would buy a mess of books and get on the internet and learn about dog training and teach him myself. Book 1, The other end of the leash by Pat McConnell Book 2, Control Unleashed Talk about hitting on the head. Dogs don't like to be patted on the head. If I tell Jin that's enough and pat him a couple of times he stops what he 's doing. Don't pat your dog on the head. Next you don't hit your dog when he jumps on you. You turn your back on him and to an ignore while saying no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 If you do decide to discontinue the class, Robin would probably benefit from playing with some other pups periodically (if he doesn't already). With our puppies, I found puppy classes most useful for the socialization to other people, other places and other dogs. If you decide to keep going, you could suggest to the instructor that she use play groups for the puppies so that puppies of roughly the same size/maturity level play together and can't gang up on the little dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I hate puppy obedience classes for just this reason. Most people running them have no clue and lets all this stupid stuff get started because "hes a cwute wittle puppers". Drop out, come back later if you want in an adult training class where they are just training and you have control over what your dog is exposed too. This free for all of unrelated puppies with no control is just stupid. You pup would learn farm more productive things with exposure to well mannered adults on an occassional basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Thanks, folks for reinforcing my feelings. I've sent her an email withdrawing from the class and explaining why. I'm sure there's a good group out there somewhere.... Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Regards groups of dogs in training pups or adults. Socialization is an absolute no no before and during class. That teaches them to ignore distractions. If they want to play, OK after class. My hands don't want to type this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 This obedience class is the only one within forty miles of my house....is a bad obedience class better than one at all? The other puppy owners seem nice and there's a nice mix of both big and small dogs so Robin will get exposure to all kinds of breeds. There's also another border collie to hang out with - a 14 week old pup. Advice please.... Liz That's a good question. Your experience with puppy school sounds like ours. We went for the Puppy Kindergarten which was just okay, then later signed up for a class when Scooter was about a year old. Big mistake. They had no clue what to do with him (he was the only Border Collie in class). They tried muzzling him, bullying him, telling us he was aggressive, and one of the other owners even asked if he'd always been that aggressive. The owner of the school said, in his defense, "He's not aggressive. If he was, there'd be nothing left of your dog!" I didn't like the way they were handling him, and we withdrew him from class, forfeiting our class fee and hired a private trainer. A few months later, the place closed down. Scooter was trying out his "dominance" wings at that stage I guess, because he's a happy, well adjusted dog now. So, I suppose I'd have to say, no, a bad obedience class is not better than none at all. There are other ways to train and socialize your pup. Good luck. Pam & Scooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Thanks, folks for reinforcing my feelings. I've sent her an email withdrawing from the class and explaining why. I'm sure there's a good group out there somewhere.... Liz I think that you made a wise choice. If you are going to work on training with Robin on your own, what I found helpful to do, was set aside a day and a time as if you had a "class" that you were going to. Of course, training is something you do every day with your dog, but most people need that designated time to really work on obedience. I am sorry that you don't have a different class available to you. I really enjoyed the puppy and adult obedience classes that I went to. But, then again, I really liked the instructor. But as many others said, socializing Robin is still very important. I hope that you can find another way to do that. Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Sounds like you made the right choice! I agree with Lenajo that spending time with well-mannered dogs will be more beneficial than simply playing with puppies or worse that free for all you described. Quinn only made it to a couple of puppy classes but had weekly "play dates" where he romped with Border Collies and terriers. The youngest was a Border Collie that was about 12 months old. He had a great time chasing with the young dog, play fighting with the terriers and shadowing the more mature dogs as they fetched. The interesting thing is as a mature dog Quinn has little interest in playing with other dogs. He is all into playing with the humans, though he gives a friendly wag when he meets his canine pals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 No body has the right to hit your dog. As for the prong collar on the Aussie, I have done that in class too. It worked well for training my Aussies but only for class and certain situations. I think you should leave the class and find another instructor or work on your own. That would be my suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewie'sMom Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Dropping this class is in the best interest of you and your pup. Hitting a puppy, or any dog, is an absolute no-no in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted July 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Found another class! This instructor seems much more professional...she isn't an AKC volunteer, but a professional behavior specialist and trainer....she doesn't do the puppy free for all, instead CGC meet and greets. We're going to observe a class next week before we start....finally getting smart! Bonus - it's closer to home! Thanks everyone.... Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat W. Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Great to hear hope all goes well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegy Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 When I had Steve in puppy class I purposely chose a class in which there would be puppy playtime. I wanted him to have exposure to playing with puppies as much as possible. Our class was usually half worktime and half playtime, not always in the same order. And it wasn't puppy free for all. Pups were only released when they sat calmly and gave eye contact, they were frequently called out of play to be rewarded and played with by their owner, and then rereleased again after "asking politely". We also did low-key, non-playing on-leash meet and greets, like you'd be more likely to come in contact with on a walk. Steve was a very wimpy puppy with other puppies, and he played with the toy breeds when we started. By the end of puppy class he was asking to go run with the big dogs and so was able to play with them instead, but we kept a close eye on him so that he didn't get overwhelmed. I don't know how I would have been able to reproduce all that interaction with other dogs on my own- I only know a handful of people with puppy-friendly dogs, and having two unsafe-with-other-dogs dogs already (and I believe a significant portion of that is simply breed), I wanted to do everything in my power to help Steve be comfortable with other dogs. I don't have trouble with him in adult classes wanting to play with dogs instead of working. And honestly, even if I did, I'd find that a lot easier to fix than trying to go back and make up for missed socialization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 If an instructor hit my pup I would make it clear, the second it happened, that no one hits my pup. I have taken puppy classes with dumb instructors. I did my own thing and ignored the bad advice. The whole purpose of those classes was to teach my dogs to obey in the face of distractions and for socialization. During the free puppy play time I put my foot down and insisted that my dogs be fit to a play group based on personality, not size. For my last pup who went to classes that meant the toy dog group because the only pups his size were overly rough Boxer and Akita pups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 A good puppy playtime/socialization time at class will be set up smartly. In Morgantown, the instructor pairs the pups (and all stay on lead so, while we play the "spaghetti dance" a bit - otherwise known as "puppy twister" - folks are easily able to remove pups that are too rowdy or intimidated). It is never a free-for-all, it is monitored by instructors, pups are paired with suitable playmates (and repaired if needed or to play with someone new), and it's done at the beginning of the class. That gets some of the excitement and energy out of the pups. I have seen from experience that a well-run playtime as part of class can be excellent for puppy socialization. LIke anything else reasonable you can do in class, done right, it's worthwhile. Done badly, it's detrimental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth G Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Yeah sounds like the instructor is a real moron with an over- inflated sense of self. You don't hit ANY dog. Especially Border's. They are so sensitive it could ruin them. I also say- Don't walk - but RUN away from that class and don't go back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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