desertranger Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Today was Jin's first class at Dreamdogs. There's really nothing special about class. I did learn a lot though. Lori and Sara really know what there up to. About 8 dogs in the class including 4 puppies. One puppy is a dobie with an ear contraption on his head. But the one that was the most astonishing was a Miniature Aussie. The first thing I have to say about this downsized bred aussie is. So cute. cutecutecutecutecutecutecutecutecutecute No a better word. A japanese one, Kawaii (like Hawaii) Kawaii Kawaii Kawaii Kawaii Kawaii Kawaii Kawaii Kawaii Kawaii OMG so cute. His name is Chuck and he is his owners first dog. I gave her the forum address and I hope she'll check in here. Chuck is the same age as Jin, 5 months but 1/3 smaller and still in his puppy coat. So cute. I can't stand it. Too much on the cuteness scale. He's a classic marked tri BTW. so cute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Congrats on your puppy class, hope it continues to go well. We are currently fostering two mini aussies and yes they are cute. But pretty sad that people are breeding for size over working ability, I cringe when I hear about it b/c since it has happened to the aussie breed, what is going to keep it from happening to border collies. While our girls are sweet and fun loving, and one may even become a foster failure, they act very little like any of the working bred aussies that I know, or even the pet bred aussies (although that may be a good thing ). I don't know how much of that is due to the environment our girls grew up in, but either way I just don't agree with breeding for a small version of a working dog when there are plenty of small breeds out there. Sorry don't mean to be a wet blanket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 We have Aussies and don't like to see the mini or toys either. Our dogs were bred to work. Sure hope they don't do anything like that to the Border Collies. To me they are so good at what they were bred for; why change. JMO Narita in AZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaisingRiver Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 What is it about miniaturized anythings that are just so flippin' cute?!?! I go goo-goo over baby sneakers - zomg! I agree, it's not good for the breeds to be mini'd - I have heard of mini BCs too but have yet to see one, although I've met a mini aussie at the dog park. So stinkin' cute, bad for the breeds. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrishD Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 My Cobi is a smaller BC and I love that about him, but I agree that I'd hate to see them miniaturized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted April 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 What is it about miniaturized anythings that are just so flippin' cute?!?! I go goo-goo over baby sneakers - zomg! I agree, it's not good for the breeds to be mini'd - I have heard of mini BCs too but have yet to see one, although I've met a mini aussie at the dog park. So stinkin' cute, bad for the breeds. :/ And why do peopoe go crazy over Jin. It's the blue eye or in the case of the aussies the scaled down dog. I can't help it he is very cute. Still I have to agree breeding for looks and size is something I don't like to see. Like the Dobie with the docked tail and ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivia Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Actually the Dobie with docked tail and ears is the exact opposite. It is not breeding for looks or size, it is creating a specific look from a dog with different features. If it was really breeding for looks the breeders would look at breeding for a naturally docked tail like the gentleman in Germany did with the boxers. I personally don't find dogs with blue eyes appealing at all but I do know that they are striking and do draw a lot of comments when I see them out and about. I agree though that anything mini is stinking cute. Dollhouse furniture and furnishings are so appealing.... makes me want to get a dollhouse so I can shop for tiny sofas, lamps, plates, etc. I've seen a few mini aussies but they don't seem much smaller than the smaller scale of normal aussies. The working aussies I've seen are even a little smaller. I have seen one or two toy aussies and they were hard to resist. Looked exactly like a full size aussie but about the size of a larger pomeranian. All fluffy and cute cute cute!! Terrible for the 'breed' though. Olivia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshine Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I have a mini aussie, a shelter dog, and she's really awesome. Love her temperament and drive, but I know what kind of breeder she came from, and it makes me sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Smaller Aussies are cute I agree. Mini Aussies, bred so deliberately, are usually the result of some "oops" to Chihuhua or Pomeranian in the past generations. I've seen them as small as 5-10 lb "Aussies". They have bulging eyes, the mini-dog yap, and are pukably different that the correct Aussie. I like small dogs, but I wish people who needed a "baby" would got get a human one from foster care if they can't have their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I used to think that mini or toy Aussies would at least look cute, but now we have neighbors with two and they aren't particularly cute. I think they are probably large toys. I mean, they aren't NOT cute, but they basically look like merle Chihuahuas -- nothing special. Anyone trying to miniaturize Border Collies would have a long uphill battle since there has never been strict selection for size in the breed. There is so much size variation in Border Collies -- and breeding dogs are usually not very "prepotent" in terms of passing on consistent size -- so often the size of the parents indicates very little about how big the pups will be. Jett weighs just over 30 pounds and her daddy is almost Solo's size. Solo weighed 52 pounds at last weigh-in. Jett's mom weighs around 45 pounds. One of her litter brothers is, I think, Solo's size now or larger. And didn't Becca's tiny little bitch Jen's sire Hap weigh, like, 65 pounds? And Jen weighed, like, 18? So someone trying to breed small Border Collies might select dogs the size of Jett and Jen and then be surprised when the resulting puppies weigh between 40 and 50 pounds. Because Jett and Jen, although small, probably carry the genetic variation necessary to build big dogs and there's no reason why that's not what would get expressed in the pups. I am surprised that no one in sports seems to be trying very hard to breed tiny purebred Border Collies, for lower agility classes and flyball. The results you get by crossing Border Collies with JRTs are quite hit or miss. I have seen a 40 pound Borderjack, who was basically a huge Jack (i.e., the opposite of what they are actually trying to get) and I am sure that sort of thing happens fairly frequently. Maybe selecting for tiny purebreds is even more hit or miss? Or is it that they lose the aptitudes they need for sports when people try to make them tiny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I think some mini aussies are really really adorable. I wouldn't be opposed to rescuing (key word) one in the future. Toy Aussies though are strange. It's obvious in most of the dogs, either pom, sheltie, or papillon have been added in somewhere. Actually a lot look like the couple of pap/sheltie mixes I know. Only docked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I am surprised that no one in sports seems to be trying very hard to breed tiny purebred Border Collies, for lower agility classes and flyball. The results you get by crossing Border Collies with JRTs are quite hit or miss. I have seen a 40 pound Borderjack, who was basically a huge Jack (i.e., the opposite of what they are actually trying to get) and I am sure that sort of thing happens fairly frequently. Maybe selecting for tiny purebreds is even more hit or miss? Or is it that they lose the aptitudes they need for sports when people try to make them tiny? I don't know much about flyball, so maybe a smaller dog would improve scores, but I really don't know how that would help with agility. The time requirements are based on the size of dog, so the required time should be the same difficulty for a small dog versus big dog based on their average stride lengths. And while you maybe wouldn't be running against all the other bc's and aussies, you would instead be running against the jrt's, shelties, and paps; so that wouldn't help with your placing rate anyway. Plus the fact that you really shouldn't be running against the other dogs, but against yourself and the course first; you have no control if other people handle their dogs better or have faster dogs, so really shouldn't be worried about what other people are doing. I guess one advantage would be the ability to jump at a lower jump height would be saving your dogs joints, but since most assoications have divisions that you can opt to jump a lower height and have lower heights for veteran dogs, I again don't think that it is really a need. I think sports breeders are more interested in the speed than in the size. Although I do always hear from the AKC people that I train with stressing when it is time for a dog to be measured and the dog is close to a lower height hoping that the dog will end up in the lower jump catagorie. I just really don't think it makes that much difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshine Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I think some mini aussies are really really adorable. I wouldn't be opposed to rescuing (key word) one in the future. Toy Aussies though are strange. It's obvious in most of the dogs, either pom, sheltie, or papillon have been added in somewhere. Actually a lot look like the couple of pap/sheltie mixes I know. Only docked. I wouldn't be surprised if Scarlett had papillon in there somewhere...not 50/50, because her littermate was a double merle, but 75/25 or less...a DNA test on her would be fun if I ever felt like forking over the money. I've posted her pics before, but her ears seem to get bigger every day, lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrishD Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 A little bit off-topic, but when I was looking at petfinder.com for Aussies and BCs, I came across this JRT/Aussie cross: http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=13264184 It looks like a tiny JRT head was photoshopped onto a medium-sized dog's body! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I wouldn't be surprised if Scarlett had papillon in there somewhere...not 50/50, because her littermate was a double merle, but 75/25 or less...a DNA test on her would be fun if I ever felt like forking over the money. I've posted her pics before, but her ears seem to get bigger every day, lol... Whatever she is, she's stunning! (and she has some good ears ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I am surprised that no one in sports seems to be trying very hard to breed tiny purebred Border Collies, for lower agility classes and flyball They are doing it, primarily out of show lines that are already consistant for a certain size (and deafness, and excessive hair, but those are another story). The goal is 16-17 inches so they can compete against the Shelties in Agility. I've seen the results are the ones that make it to agility (apparently the fall out rate is for no drive or crazy level out of control) have the mini dog yap, bulging mini dog eyes, and zero self control or self preservation. They are just bttw black and white agility bats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 And while you maybe wouldn't be running against all the other bc's and aussies, you would instead be running against the jrt's, shelties, and paps; so that wouldn't help with your placing rate anyway. But it probably would, because you'd be running against JRTs, Shelties, and Paps. I do think that pitting a Border Collie against those breeds -- a Border Collie with all the aptitude for agility that the larger dogs have in a small package -- would be a winning combination. And winning is what you have to do for a MACH, not just Q. In the "Border Collie classes" it is nearly impossible to win. Move up or down a class and things get much easier. I used to run Solo in 26" in USDAA and we didn't compete much, and Solo isn't all that fast, but if we didn't retire (due to Solo spooking at the judge) Solo would usually win. We were running against Labs and GSDs and it didn't take much. Likewise, I used to have a Papillon who a former World Team member (which is who I got him from) thought was going to be an agility superstar. Working with him was nothing like working with a Border Collie -- the effort it took to train him was monumental compared to training Solo. They just don't have the same kind of focus and drive. And don't get me started on JRTs... Isn't there some mini-Aussie with an ILP kicking ass and taking names in the small classes in AKC agility? And hasn't there been a huge stink about it since the small dog handlers think it's unfair to run an Aussie in the lower height classes or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andale Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I have a 17.5" aussie. I've also owned larger standard sized aussies and my current aussie is basically the same dog in a smaller package. I've seen some toys and minis that just don't look right, with bug eyes and domed heads and I feel bad everytime I see one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 But it probably would, because you'd be running against JRTs, Shelties, and Paps. I do think that pitting a Border Collie against those breeds -- a Border Collie with all the aptitude for agility that the larger dogs have in a small package -- would be a winning combination. And winning is what you have to do for a MACH, not just Q. In the "Border Collie classes" it is nearly impossible to win. Move up or down a class and things get much easier. I used to run Solo in 26" in USDAA and we didn't compete much, and Solo isn't all that fast, but if we didn't retire (due to Solo spooking at the judge) Solo would usually win. We were running against Labs and GSDs and it didn't take much. Likewise, I used to have a Papillon who a former World Team member (which is who I got him from) thought was going to be an agility superstar. Working with him was nothing like working with a Border Collie -- the effort it took to train him was monumental compared to training Solo. They just don't have the same kind of focus and drive. And don't get me started on JRTs... I think it depends on the individual pap. Working with the ones I've had each is really different. I have two right now that are breezes and pick things up quick whereas the other two are pains to train. One has little drive and the other has no focus. Both are brilliant little energetic things but they're a challenge and will never go anywhere with performance. Rose's issues though are more of fear issues and Nard's are just the fact he has no desire to please whatsoever. My Summer, though, picks things up a lot faster than both the bcs and aussie we train with. Of course she'll never be as speedy, but what she lacks in speed, she gains in consistency. Of course I don't know, I've never run a bc yet but this just comes from observing. I'll take a pap any day over a sheltie though, none of my shelties have been drivey at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Well, that's the thing. Not all Border Collies will be point and shoot, but overall they are MUCH more consistent in terms of drive and focus. Who wouldn't want that? When I started working with Skeeter, who has TONS of drive, the part I found most frustrating was how much work it was to motivate him to do what I wanted him to do, rather than what he wanted to do. (I think I mentioned before that I sometimes wondered if a JRT snuck into the breeding shed of the puppy mill that produced him.) I have never had to motivate any of my Border Collies to do anything that resembled agility or flyball -- they are naturals at it and want to work with me and only need to be shown the job at hand. The only times I had to drag out the bells and whistles were when Solo and I were training in Rally, which Solo found about as exciting as watching paint dry. I am pretty sure I actually caught him counting ceiling tiles once or twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted April 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I've always had large BCs, over 55 lbs. Just natural monsters the large one in the litter. If I were to breed BCs for size I'd go that route. I just don't believe in dong that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclare Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I like small dogs, but I wish people who needed a "baby" would got get a human one from foster care if they can't have their own. I don't know - given the way some people treat their pocket pups I'd rather they not have access to human children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 At least a kid can grow up and give them a good "you are an idiot" shove off ROFL Poor dog can never get away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 A little bit off-topic, but when I was looking at petfinder.com for Aussies and BCs, I came across this JRT/Aussie cross: http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=13264184 It looks like a tiny JRT head was photoshopped onto a medium-sized dog's body! It really does look photoshopped. WTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Well, that's the thing. Not all Border Collies will be point and shoot, but overall they are MUCH more consistent in terms of drive and focus. Who wouldn't want that? When I started working with Skeeter, who has TONS of drive, the part I found most frustrating was how much work it was to motivate him to do what I wanted him to do, rather than what he wanted to do. (I think I mentioned before that I sometimes wondered if a JRT snuck into the breeding shed of the puppy mill that produced him.) I have never had to motivate any of my Border Collies to do anything that resembled agility or flyball -- they are naturals at it and want to work with me and only need to be shown the job at hand. The only times I had to drag out the bells and whistles were when Solo and I were training in Rally, which Solo found about as exciting as watching paint dry. I am pretty sure I actually caught him counting ceiling tiles once or twice. I agree. I simply meant if someone theoretically came up with a line of 'mini' bcs (blegh) individuals of the other breeds- paps, jrts, shelties would probably still be pretty competitive. I do think theoretically it'd have to be easier to take the drivier lines of the small breeds and go that way than try to downsize bcs that drastically while trying to keep the dogs stable. My (technically my sister's ) Bernard is like Skeeter only he's more like having a 5 lb husky. He's got FANTASTIC ball/toy drive but trying to focus that into anything useful has me pulling out my hair. I'm adamant I still just haven't found good enough motivation for him, but it's annoying. He doesn't give one whit about you or what you want him to do. The other two think working with me is enough motivation in itself. Well, except Rally and Beau. We tried doing rally with him too and he also thought it was rather dull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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