Registering with the AKC?

[Laurelin]

That is taken directly from the report. It's not for the dogs, it's for the "designer label." Please don't support them.

 

Please don't support them is easier said than done if you're involved a breed like mine.

 

Fine, let's say I don't support them. My options are to go to other registries where the quality of the breed I'm interested in is likely not very good. I don't know of anyone that is strictly UKC so that's out. You just can't get your hands on good breeding dogs if you aren't involved in the AKC breed clubs. Even imports expect you to show AKC.

 

Of course you can import from the Can KC or Europe. The KC has even more problems regarding my breed and are more strict regarding silly things that don't matter like markings. I have personally had very bad experiences with my dogs that were from import parents (JKC). Long story that a few people here know, but I will not touch those lines again with a 30 ft pole. I'd much rather deal with the American breeders I've known for a long time. That way I know who's in it for all the wrong reasons and producing unsound dogs.

[Journey]

As for my source of stats, yes, it's HSUS. I'm no fan either, but in fighting AKC, our agendas merge. Here are their estimates:

 

I'm no fan either way but when it's between H$U$ and AKC I'll lean towards AKC. H$U$ wants to end all "pets" period, no more breeding, no more dogs. Sorry, merging ideals with them simply because what they report to be accurate numbers of euthanised dogs is in line with Kool Aide. It's to their advantage to exaggerate the numbers.

 

If the estimate is so grim; why are dogs being shipped from one shelter in the south to northern shelters that lack dogs? Why are dogs being imported from other countries?

 

 

Percentage of dogs in shelters who are purebred:

25 percent (HSUS estimate)

 

 

OK, so let's cut the numbers in half to eliminate cats. Give or take 1.5 million dogs killed in shelters every year. Let's halve it again to allow for overstating. 750,000 dogs killed in shelters every year, of which 25%, or 187,500 are pure bred. So, 513 pure bred dogs a day or 21 an hour are killed in shelters. That's 1 pure bred dog killed in a US shelter every 3 minutes.

 

When was the last time you were in a shelter? I ask because I am in one at least once a month. Pure bred are 25% of the population? Sorry not in "any" of the shelters I have been in.

 

It's fine to blame AKC, shoot they are the largest. However, right now MSN is a far greater worry imo. AKC has the $$ to fight MSN (which is popping up like chicken pox's in the country right now). If you align with H$U$ and PETA I can understand your stance. Do you really want to "not" be able to buy another dog in the future? Should we all stop buying dogs and go get one from the shelters? Will that help? No, because it's the irresponsible (that's not a word I know) breeders that crank out the pups. I don't buy "we're just a registry" any longer either but nor do I buy the crap that H$U$ is putting out.

 

The OP asked about ILP/PAL (which the dog has to be spayed/neutered) and my contention is at least she will be doing "something" that is better than nothing imo.

[Lenajo]

If the estimate is so grim; why are dogs being shipped from one shelter in the south to northern shelters that lack dogs?

 

If you actually go into the shelters and work you find that HSUS and PETA differ a good deal from reality. Some areas, like the Southeast where I live, still have overpopulations with lots of available puppies because s/n is not commenly done. These puppies are primarily mixed breeds with the occassional purebred - mostly lab, retriever, and hound. If not adopted locally are shipped by the van and truck load to shelters in the Northeast who cannot get any puppies in to adopt out. All they get in they state are adult and problem dogs - true fighting stock from inner cities. Widespread spay/neuter has taken care of the rest of the problem in those areas.

 

The problem at this point is people gladly adopt puppies, and most regions are s/n those babies pretty quick, BUT the same people don't really want a *dog*. As in an adult, needs vet care, training, poop pick up and exercise even in the winter *dog*.

 

Retention is the issue. And frankly, AKC, HSUS, PETA, ABCA...none of them are doing anything about that. I'm not sure what can be done until we change the general public to a retention/save/recycle society instead of a throwaway one.

 

In the scheme of things, a spay/neutered pet competing in AKC events is not signficant as the cause or solution to these problems. If anything is contributes to the good example that a trained, well cared for dog is *fun* to both dog and human.

 

Don't like AKC for what it is - a cumbersomely large organization that doesn't use it's influence for good as it could. It's not the devil. It's not a god. It's not that black and white. This is not about conformation showing - that's done and it ain't going away. This is about *altered pets* in *sport competitions*.

[Eileen Stein]

In the scheme of things, a spay/neutered pet competing in AKC events is not signficant as the cause or solution to these problems. If anything is contributes to the good example that a trained, well cared for dog is *fun* to both dog and human.

 

Don't like AKC for what it is - a cumbersomely large organization that doesn't use it's influence for good as it could. It's not the devil. It's not a god. It's not that black and white. This is not about conformation showing - that's done and it ain't going away. This is about *altered pets* in *sport competitions*.

 

It's about much more than a spay/neutered pet competing in AKC events. It's about the future of our breed -- who gets to define it and speak for it and influence its direction. Every border collie registered with AKC increases their claim and ability to shape the breed and the public perception of the breed. Every border collie dual registered blurs the line between AKC Border Collies and real border collies. Sheer numbers of border collies registered strengthen them, but beyond numbers alone, it is folly to underestimate the gravitational pull of the AKC, and the power of its cultural norms on people who come under its influence. Look at the change in the BCSA -- almost entirely performance folks -- who went from disparaging conformation showing pre-recognition to advocating that there was a duty to show border collies in conformation. There is prestige in versatility awards, there is prestige in breeding. Soon it's "Keep the dog intact til you see what you've got," then "Keep the dog intact so you can get your CH and a versatility title," then "You owe it to the breed to breed a dog who's that brilliant in agility." Very few people can remain impervious to the culture around them. I see this change in attitude over and over, and IMO it poses a much greater threat to our breed than people who only look at the short term and the individual case realize.

 

"Doesn't use its influence for good as it could"? Is that really all you see wrong with the AKC?

[Lenajo]

"Doesn't use its influence for good as it could"? Is that really all you see wrong with the AKC?

 

I see a lot of things Eileen. Like when average pet people who are still trying hard to handle basic behavior post on the board for help about the pup the got with lines full of top handler's dogs - if not straight from those handlers themselves.

 

There a lot of things that need fixing out there to save this breed. In my small way I'll do the best I can. I'll breed our 2 best stockdogs, proven Open dogs, and keep the pups I need for my farm and my life. From that same litter I'll do my best to sell the rest of those pups to people who will care for them for *life*. That is not just until they decide they can't make Open Sheepdogs/World Team Agility/OTCH status. I'll make sure that pup is marked non-breeding ABCA, and limited registration AKC, so no mistakes happen that pollute anybody's genepool. If something happens to the owner I'll be right there to make sure that pup is taken care of.

 

If that person wants to take that non-breeding pup into AKC and run agility, or do heelwork to music, or SAR, or service work I've got no problem with it. As far as I'm concerned these people who take well bred, responsibly bred, dogs out and train them to a public working standard are the best example I can put out there short of a rescue dog doing the same thing. And I placed quite a few of those, more than I breed by far, so I've done my share in that as well.

 

I used to believe this AKC thing to be black and white. AKC "bad", ABCA "good". Actually it would be very easy when you look at the broad scope of things to condemn *both* registries for significant lack of effort to fix the problems of overbreeding. AKC is just a larger scale, covering more territory, and more breeds. Then there is that ridiculous showing thing, we can agree on that but nobody has managed to solve the issue of it in any country. Inbreeding? Breeding dogs with serious issues? AKC hasn't cornered the market on that either.

 

It appears that you want me to belly up on this one, and claim my idiocy on the matter. Perhaps I can still sell those pups sans papers so they be PAL/ILP as "unknown pedigree" instead? That was suggested early on in this. I guess secrecy and dishonesty goes a long way because that must be how all those ABCA top lines are ending up in AKC homes by mistake. Somebody tricked them....

 

Personally I think it was high time we were honest about a lot of things. #1 being I, and people like me, are not the problem - my pups are not in shelters, rescue, or the show ring in any system. They are 100% working bred, out of proven working dogs. I breed for me. I'm honest and upfront that I don't like a lot of what AKC does. Anybody who I deal with knows that.

 

I don't like things the government of this country does either btw...

 

But just like "taking your toys and going home" doesn't help the newbies on this forum, taking my non-breeding dogs and going home isn't changing AKC, and moving to Costa Rica isn't going to fix the USA.

 

I don't have the solution for all of it. You don't either. If ABCA supports numerous breeders that put out over 30 litters a year, over half of which appear to go into rescue at one point or another, are we supporting that irresponsiblity by going to the Finals that ABCA sponsers? if ABCA registered dogs that are over 60% COI inbred, seizure, and are merle/merle crosses are we supporting that too?

 

By your standards we should boycot them too. Hmmmm...guess we all need to stay home and just live off the farm.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I see a lot of things Eileen. Like when average pet people who are still trying hard to handle basic behavior post on the board for help about the pup the got with lines full of top handler's dogs - if not straight from those handlers themselves.

 

There may have been a handful of such posts, although I cannot remember a single one. But I don't see what's so terrible about that. Everyone has to start somewhere, and what's wrong with them starting with a good dog?

 

I'm not going to respond to each and every gripe like this one in the rest of your post, because to me they are all distractions. They are a way of saying, "I can point to other things I don't like in the world, other people doing things I don't like, so that means I don't have to worry about whether what I'm doing is right or wrong." I just don't understand that way of thinking.

 

I also don't understand why you don't want to answer my question about whether the only thing you see wrong with the AKC is that it doesn't use its influence for good as much as it could.

 

There a lot of things that need fixing out there to save this breed. In my small way I'll do the best I can. I'll breed our 2 best stockdogs, proven Open dogs, and keep the pups I need for my farm and my life. From that same litter I'll do my best to sell the rest of those pups to people who will care for them for *life*. That is not just until they decide they can't make Open Sheepdogs/World Team Agility/OTCH status. I'll make sure that pup is marked non-breeding ABCA, and limited registration AKC, so no mistakes happen that pollute anybody's genepool. If something happens to the owner I'll be right there to make sure that pup is taken care of.

 

A lot of what you're doing is great, without a doubt. You could go a step further, and not sell to people who are going to register with the AKC. Even if you wanted performance homes, there are plenty of performance folks who compete in venues other than AKC, as repeated posts here show. If you did that, then you would really be doing the best you can IMO.

 

BTW, you cannot make sure a pup is "limited registration AKC" unless its parents are registered with the AKC. Does that mean that your dogs that you are breeding are AKC-registered?

 

If that person wants to take that non-breeding pup into AKC and run agility, or do heelwork to music, or SAR, or service work I've got no problem with it. As far as I'm concerned these people who take well bred, responsibly bred, dogs out and train them to a public working standard are the best example I can put out there short of a rescue dog doing the same thing.

 

The best example of what?

 

Personally I think it was high time we were honest about a lot of things. #1 being I, and people like me, are not the problem

 

It's funny, I've never heard anyone say, "I am the problem." Have you? And of course no one is THE problem. There are always other contributors to the problem you can point to.

 

I'm honest and upfront that I don't like a lot of what AKC does. Anybody who I deal with knows that.

 

Everybody says that. If I had a dollar for everyone who supports the AKC with registrations and entries who says they don't like a lot of what AKC does, I'd be even richer than if I had the dollars from those who claim they had no choice about registering. What good does saying that do, if you sell your pups into AKC?

 

But just like "taking your toys and going home" doesn't help the newbies on this forum, taking my non-breeding dogs and going home isn't changing AKC, and moving to Costa Rica isn't going to fix the USA.

 

Ah, but if no one registered border collies with the AKC, or sold pups to people who were going to register them with the AKC, then the AKC would have no border collies, and NO power whatsoever over the breed. Isn't the essence of ethics to act in such a way that, if everyone acted that way, the result would be good?

 

I don't have the solution for all of it. You don't either.

 

There are a lot of ills I don't have the solution for, but I don't regard that as absolving me from doing what I individually can to keep from making them worse.

 

If ABCA supports numerous breeders that put out over 30 litters a year, over half of which appear to go into rescue at one point or another,

 

A very big IF. If they do, I don't know it, and you don't show it.

 

There are certainly things about the ABCA that I don't like -- if I had my way, for example, they would exclude from membership anyone who registers border collies with the AKC, and exclude from registration any dogs registered with the AKC. But ( a) I have done what I can to try to enforce breeding standards and remove bad breeders from the registry, and ( b ) I don't use ABCA's shortcomings as an excuse to say that there's no difference between a registry that advocates and supports breeding border collies for work and one that advocates and supports breeding them for appearance.

 

 

are we supporting that irresponsiblity by going to the Finals that ABCA sponsers? if ABCA registered dogs that are over 60% COI inbred, seizure, and are merle/merle crosses are we supporting that too?

 

No, because the ABCA is not advocating excessive breeding, inbreeding dogs or breeding merles to merles, whereas the AKC IS actually advocating policies that are detrimental to our breed. It's the difference between failing to cure a problem and actively making that problem worse.

 

Also, incidentally, you don't see the ABCA scheming to get more registrations from the "retail sector" because we need the dough. On the contrary, during my tenure on the Board alone, the ABCA has taken a number of steps that have directly or indirectly gotten rid of a number of bad breeders, with full knowledge that the result would be a loss of income for the registry.