jdarling Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Not sure where to stick this so I am putting it here. Eileen, please feel free to move it ... I've never seen an AKC "C Course" that everyone raves about -- and now that YouTube exists, you can see just about anything. Is this what a C Course typically looks like? What is the dog working in relation to? What is the object? Thanks. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Wow. I think those sheep need the title behind their names, not the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I don't think I can answer your questions Jodi, but C Course is supposed to be a tending course. In the parts where the dog was circling the flock while it grazed, the dog has been taught to be a perimeter fence--in this case with the white posts marking the edges of the area the sheep are to graze. I think sometimes they use furrows in the ground for this purpose. I'm guessing the car driving by was to simulate moving the sheep down the side of a roadway, though I have to wonder how good it would be to leave one member of the flock on the opposite side of the road with a car going by. Otherwise, when they're moving sheep, it looks like the object is to prevent the sheep from passing the shepherd, and what happens at the back of the flock seems to be somewhat inconsequential. When I have taken sheep out to unfenced areas to graze, I don't use the dog as a "living fence" (seems like an awful lot of work for the dog); instead, I keep the dog back near me and just flank her in whatever direction the sheep appear to be heading if the look like they want to leave the area I'm grazing. Generally that's enough to keep them contained. I suppose we could look up the C course regs on the AKC site and see what is supposed to happen. All I really know is that it's supposed to be a large flock tending test. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I believe the car driving by is a requirement--some sort of "natural" distraction or hazard, I suppose. The only other thing I know about C course, other than what Julie says, is that there is much talk of having the "proper" flock that is trained with grain (I know, I know) to act appropriately (as in follow the handler). I saw one C course once maybe 15 years ago, and didn't quite get it--the sheep were so trained with the grain, I saw no reason for a dog, even a mediocre one, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The thing I noticed about the white posts as perimeter or boundary markers is that the dog seemed trained to go right around the posts (in the video, it's rather like going tightly around it as if it were an "obstacle" instead of working off the sheep, if you understand what I am trying to say). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Thanks, ladies. I was starting to think I was missing something. This always seemed to me to be the "highly coveted" course. Sue, that's what I was basically asking is what that dog was working in relation to ... because it seems that the dog was trained to run from post to post and not in relation to anything "needed" with the flock. Ok ... so I looked it up. Here's what the intro says: Course C reflects a tending shepherd’s day, as he/she accompanies the flock, moving to various unfenced grazing areas. The sheep must be allowed to graze peacefully, contained within specified unfenced areas, and safely guided on the roads between those areas. The dog patrols to guard against sheep trespassing onto the adjoining field, while the sheep graze and are moved along roads. The shepherd and dog are responsible for the safety and good health of the sheep, in addition to protection of all adjoining lands from the sheep. Only through a harmonious effort among the shepherd, the flock and the dog can optimal success be attained in this type of grazing flock management. So who came up with the "design" of the course? The shepherds around here generally have an LGD (if not more), and several Border Collie looking dogs. The corn fields they graze are on busy roads, with all kinds of vehicles passing, and there are no dogs continually running the perimeter of the grazing area. When they move the flocks, there is generally one dogless dude at the front of the flock preparing traffic to stop so they can all cross the road, and then another dude at the rear of the flock with several Border Collie'ish dogs driving them across the road. Here's the blurb about the "vehicle" and how it works into the course. The Vehicle—The vehicle must be as quiet as possible and provide a maximum field of visibility for the driver.A golf cart is the preferred vehicle. A compact or subcompact car or van is preferable to a farm tractor because of the noise of the tractor. Bicycles and motorcycles are prohibited. For the Advanced Level, if a car or truck is used, there must be two people in it when moving. The car may not be driven faster than 5 mph. If a pick-up truck is used it may not have a canopy. A recognized motor vehicle department must license the driver. Seriously ... how much more could they dumb that down? But this part ... <sigh> H. General Deductions1. Up to 5 points deducted for touching the dog or sheep. 2. Up to 5 points deducted or removed from course for an unacceptable grip. The dog must be excused for an abusive grip. 3. Up to 5 points deducted if the dog marks the course. 4. Up to 8 points deducted if stock does not respect dog. 5. Up to 10 points deducted if the dog needs repeated commands to perform tasks. 6. Up to 10 points deducted if the dog fails to control situations on its own initiative. Yes, when moving a huge flock of sheep ... whatever you do ... don't touch them. And by golly, do not touch your dog. And crate that dog if it marks the cornfield the sheep are grazing in. Dumb dog. Whew! It's only 8 points off if the flock doesn't respect my dog! Woo hoo! I thought I might lose my flock. Silly me. It blows me away to think of how small the AKC herding program would be if there was actually some sort of realism inserted into any of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I felt bad for this dog. She looked pretty game and way more focused on the task at hand (such as it was) than the average "off-breed" herding dog. The most striking thing about this video, to me, was how the sheep did not react at all to the dog's presence, whether they were standing or moving, even though she was very close. She may as well not have been there. The second most striking thing was what a waste of energy the exercise seemed to be. What was the point of all that running? Could you imagine actually doing this with a dog all day, every day, in a working environment? You'd have to feed your dog like, ten cups of food a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Yeah Melanie, that's what I thought. You'd wear your dog out in no time, and for what? The sheep weren't even going past the perimeter posts. That's why I commented that I keep my dog with me and just move the dog when it's evident the sheep are going to stray. I still don't get the part about the dog working the front of the flock only (when moving) and the handler was clearly telling the dog to go to one side or the other. But I thought it odd that they crossed the (simulated bridge)? and the dog lay next to the fence, but got up before all the sheep had crossed, and from then on just sort of left the back half of the flock to straggle along. What would be stopping those laggard sheep from eating the neighbor's fields? It would make more sense to me to let me (the shepherd) control the front and let my dog control the sides and rear. And I still don't get leaving a single sheep on the opposite side of the "road" while the car passed. That would seem a vehicle-sheep accident just waiting to happen. Jodi, The reason people rave over these courses is, I think, because they are few and far between: because you need a large enough dog-broke flock to do the course and the space to do it in. People who have traditional "tending breeds" would like to be able to showcase them doing what they were meant to do, but of course have a hard time finding anyone who offers C course. You are correct that the dogs are trained to recognize perimeter markers. I don't know how this translates into real-world work (that is, I don't know if shepherds of old in Europe actually marked perimeters for their dogs or just paid attention--i.e., shepherded--and moved the dogs as needed). As stated before, I think the latter option makes more sense, unless of course, the dog is meant to be left unattended and patrol a marked perimeter on its own. I wonder if you could find any European tending trials on YouTube.... Sorry, no video, but here's what it looks like when I graze a flock on the neighbor's unfenced fields: Twist is positioned on one side of the perimeter (you can see a change from green grass to broomstraw), and from there, I, sitting in my chair, would ask her to move only if the sheep started to stray off the area they were on. If I kept Twist moving constantly, the sheep would never settle enough to actually graze, which was the whole purpose of being there. So she stayed where I put her and I could flank her left or right (it would take just very short flanks on her part for the sheep to notice and stop or move back from the edge of the grazing area) as needed. But neither of us had to wear ourselves out so the sheep could graze.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 People who have traditional "tending breeds" would like to be able to showcase them doing what they were meant to do... And then it begs the question ... if there are really "tending breeds" ... why don't the professional shepherds who would find use with a tending dog ever use them? Or do they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I don't have the answer to that question. I really think it has more to do with the way things were done in Europe of old, and not necessarily related to the sort of open-range shepherding that occurs here. But I really don't know much about it, other than the comments I read on the topic on Herd-L. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 And then it begs the question ... if there are really "tending breeds" ... why don't the professional shepherds who would find use with a tending dog ever use them? Or do they? I don't know about other breeds, but there is at least one person in the US who uses GSD's to maintain his sheep flock, and apparently, according to the one link, that there are still some who use GSD's in Germany to tend flocks. http://www.vomlinmarc.com/html/ddr_german_...herd_eicke.html Ulf Kinzel - from NJ. http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/ And, from what I understand, a meaningful tending trial doesn't have cones and trained sheep. So I think there are some people who are serious about maintaining their breed's ability, at least in GSD's, as a stockdog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Interesting, Vicki. Looks like the AKC "C course" might be loosely based on the course Unf Kinzel trains for. The HGH Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The dog seemed superfluous - the sheep followed the handler, largely ignored (or were not impacted by) the dog, and the dog put in a lot of effort apparently accomplishing nothing necessary. And that's for second leg at advanced level. I wonder what is done (or not done) at a beginner level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Some videos of a French tending competition (FCI rules): ETA: One more that's easier to see - different competition ETA again: Sorry about the techno overload there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The horns on the sheep were the best part of that last video! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I was thinking the same thing! Those are wild looking sheep - normal looking but with those crazy horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 It blows me away to think of how small the AKC herding program would be if there was actually some sort of realism inserted into any of it. >>jdarling I agree- there would not be much of a AKC herding program if the dogs actually had to perform any where near what a border collie does. I think it would be great for most AKC herding breed clubs to develop their own, breed specific trial systems in order to salvage what is left for those breeds, but we all know the likelihood of that happening. That being said, I'm going to play devil's advocate just a little bit. The people participating in this program, with the exception of the title chasers who just want that low level herding title to claim working ability, are doing more for their breeds than conformation breeders are. The dogs are not as talented as our dogs, and in my opinion, require a great deal of work to be successful even at the lower levels. I have worked with other breeds, I find it immensely frustrating at times, but there are some very dedicated other breed owners, many of which have no clue about livestock or herding, but who wish to see at least the desire to work preserved. I shudder to think that our breed will reach that state, but I also feel it is a luxury for us to sit back and criticise others who are at least making an effort with dogs that most likely have not been bred towards anything near the standard most of our dogs have. This is not personal even according to this thread, but just a general attitude on the boards I've noticed lately. Don't mean to offend anyone, and believe me, I know from Herd-L how deluded some of these folks are. But it's better for their breeds than conformation, flyball or even agility IMHO. To be clear, I do not and would not own AKC dogs, do not compete in AKC and do not directly help anyone else to do so. I usually encourage other breed people to participate in AHBA, which is a better program in my opinion. I do have a little Sheltie that comes out that is getting close to Novice Border Collie level- it only took her a year and a half- her owner has no interest in trialing her but loves seeing her work sheep, which she is quite presentable at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 1) Your right. What's up with all that running along the edge of the flock? Wouldn't it be better for a working dog in a real situation to conserve energy and lie down if the sheep are grazing peacefully? I wouldn't want my dog running around the edge of the field for hours then being too tired to move them back home at the end of the day. 2) Wow, leaving the one behind to potentially get hit by a car is very bad. Didn't look like the dog understood the big picture. 3) Definitely looked like trained sheep. Why else would they continue to follow the handler despite the dog running back and forth in front of the handler as opposed to behind the flock? When I moved to this area I discovered a flock of sheep nearby available for use by people training for trials. I was very excited and called the owner to arrange some time. As soon as I said I owned BCs I was told I couldn't use them because my dogs would "ruin the training that she had done to make sure the sheep would be appropriate for an AKC C course." I was totally blown away by that. Trained sheep? A good dog is a good dog, right? I respect the idea of different working styles, but I don't think people should delude themselves into believing that their dogs are actually working when trained sheep follow a handler around a small course. That does not do anything to help them breed better working dogs. If they want to bring back working ability into their lines they need to really push their dogs to the highest level possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 It looks like the original video Jodi posted is from last October's HGH trial at Ulf Kintzel's farm: http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-events.htm I recognize the bitch's name and the field looks the same. I guess it's possible that the owner wears the same thing to every trial, but my guess is that it's the same trial. The page says the judge came from Germany, and that the bitch passed with a "good" rating, so I guess that's what tending looks like in Germany too. Therefore, my guess is that "real" tending does not look any more sophisticated than this video would suggest. ETA: About the videos Becca posted -- FCI ~ AKC -- therefore I don't expect much. Did you notice that these are from the "Championnat d’Europe sauf border et kelpie?" Ha, ha ha. The GSD looked like he had the nicest or at least, the least disruptive working style. The Beauceron's run just looked chaotic to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 When I moved to this area I discovered a flock of sheep nearby available for use by people training for trials. I was very excited and called the owner to arrange some time. As soon as I said I owned BCs I was told I couldn't use them because my dogs would "ruin the training that she had done to make sure the sheep would be appropriate for an AKC C course." I was totally blown away by that. Trained sheep? A good dog is a good dog, right? I respect the idea of different working styles, but I don't think people should delude themselves into believing that their dogs are actually working when trained sheep follow a handler around a small course. That does not do anything to help them breed better working dogs. If they want to bring back working ability into their lines they need to really push their dogs to the highest level possible. I agree- not letting your dog work sheep because it might ruin them for a dog trial is very silly. Lame, even. I also agree that the ideal is to push their dogs to the highest level. But I do not think other breeds should try to fit into a border collie mold, nor do I think it's even possible for most to salvage the herding ability in their breed because so few people care at all to maintain it. I'm just saying that we are very lucky that so many people care to maintain our breed at a high level, and anyone from most other breeds that is at least trying should get some credit for doing so, even if the efforts seem ridiculous at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 .... When I have taken sheep out to unfenced areas to graze, I don't use the dog as a "living fence" (seems like an awful lot of work for the dog); instead, I keep the dog back near me and just flank her in whatever direction the sheep appear to be heading if the look like they want to leave the area I'm grazing. Generally that's enough to keep them contained. ..... J. Back when I was 'working' on a friend's sheep farm, I had the opportunity to do some shepherding with my Kirra (not working bred, but did get to be a reasonably handy chores dog). Our task was to move the sheep to a part of their 100 acre or so paddock that had long non-preferred grass, and hold them there for a couple of hours to graze that down a bit, to take pressure off other parts of the paddock. We did the same sort of thing that Julie describes - sitting with our coffee and our book and the dog, and only using the dog as necessary to hold the sheep in more or less the place we wanted. Most times Kirra and I were able to do that quite well, although I do remember a day when we were tending a flock of wily stud ewes, who drifted quietly down a slope behind some really long tussocks, and then made a high speed break for the part of the paddock they wanted to be in. Tha did mean some hard work for the dog to get them back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I just don't get it. And I agree ... I think the sheep should be the ones getting the titles. Jaime, I understand what you are saying. Sure ... this is better than nothing. But I'm not entirely convinced the dog in the first video knows there's sheep there. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Why are there two handlers, and is the lady in blue holding a bucket of grain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Maybe the sheep were not trained quite so well as they wanted them to be for the "so difficult" C Course. The presence of the dog seems pretty pointless, and he/she seems more interested in being with the handler than with the sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeyDogs Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm just glad to see a German Shepherd whose structure allows it to move like that! Don't see that too often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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