Sooo Mad!! (What Would You Do?)*Long*

[narcodog]

Call the police back and ask to speak with one of the K9 handlers. In departments that do not have a dedicated animal cruelty unit K9 handlers often fill this role. Keep bothering them until something is done. The behavior you describe from this child is highly indicative of future violent behavior. Children that start out being cruel to animals very often progress to killing them then move on to human prey.

Every documented serial killer, rapist and kidnapper started out with animal cruelty. Not trying to scare you but these are the facts. The younger a child a starts with animal cruelty the more violent they will become and sooner if there is no intervention.

This is not something to take lightly.

[Beth G]

I have tried it all and as a last resort will squirt him if I have to- drama or not. I cannot lift two 20+ dog's- let alone one- everytime this kid charges them(and to be honest I should'nt have to!!) and it is harder than it looks to just leap in front of them.

 

Plus, they are puppies and it's hard to keep them on a 1 inch leash in my own yard, they buck and fight me the whole way as I ahve to yank them towards me and they don't understand.

 

I'm telling you that I get out my front door and the kid is right there. Part of the lawns are attached between the houses. Not much I can do. And you want to know what the police said about my complaints?! They laughed and said, "You want us to charge a 4 yr old?!"

 

And to that I said ,

 

"No I want you to charge the parents!!"

 

 

Well to make a long story short, dispatch gave my complaint to the officers, last night. And....NO ONE SHOWED UP!!

AGAIN!

 

Drama? Yes.

 

Frustrated? Yes.

 

Now I would much rather squirt or hose this brat than kick his @$$...but believe me I am fast reconsidering(if his parents had done a little butt kicking this behavior would have probably been nipped in the bud).

 

So I'm sorry if people here don't like that. But tough cookies.

 

I tried the cookies And play date stuff until he started kicking my son's butt. No more going that route sorry.

 

PS

I have fibromyalgia and it looks like possible MS. I'm not cut out for taking on all that. I honestly tried but am not going to stress myself and go into another flare...

 

Besides I recognize this behavior for what it is and if this kid isn't stopped I firmly believe (and so does the Animal Control guy I spoke with this morning)that it IS going to escalate into very future violent behavior and someone or an animal WILL eventually be killed.

 

Now, please don't anyone laugh at me or think I'm just making too big a big deal- I'm totally serious.

 

This is for real- this kind of behavior has been proven to lead to more serious future - behavior. And it is supported by REAL research.

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

Can you afford fencing? Electric fencing? That might be the way to go. Since your dogs are never out without you, then a fence would stop the kid appearing out of nowhere.

 

A little anonymous call to children's protective services probably would not hurt, either. The kid is obviously not getting something at home if he thinks it is okay to kick animals and hit people. If you can, document the occurrences you remember, and perhaps carry a digital camera with you that has video capability. That would certainly help your case, and the other people who have called animal control multiple times might be willing to contribute a call to the local children's protective services as well.

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[Root Beer]

What about the press? If the authorities will not take your complaints seriously, you might contact your local newspaper.

[Beth G]

Two good suggestions thanks. BTW- What do i tell the paper??

 

Also, I want to call child services, but husband reemed me. He said he'd hate to see the kid taken away from parents. We both grew up in foster homes. And though I understand his point, I think it might be for the better...

[mosstheboss2000]

Why dont you just take one puppy out at a time so that you can control the situation easier.. at least till you get things settled.

[Jen C]

This kind of out of control behavior could be 2 things, it could be a child starved for attention and guidance; or, it could be the beginning of a truly evil person, who without intervention (and possible even with intervention) could end up a truly violent and messed up adult.

 

I think you should lodge written complaints with Animal Control, the police and Child Services, and you should do so after each small incident (including every trespass). I also think you should let the parents know that you are going to have surveillance cameras (even if it is just a nanny cam and a handheld video camera) and that if their son is ever again found to be on your property, you will be sending the tape to the local authorities and the local news (you can tell the authorities you are going to the news as well).

 

I feel bad, the kid is 4, but his parents are not 4, and you have to protect your pups and yourself. You don't need the stress, your puppies don't need to learn that little children kick - and if it were me, I would let the parents know that in documenting every time their child is cruel to your dog, you are ensuring that if heaven forbid either of your dogs ever bites a child - you will sue them, on the grounds that their negligence was the direct cause of your dog's fear of children... Maybe the threat of the law, the press and a law suit will be enough to shake the parents into action???

 

So sorry you are dealing with this - it stinks!!

[nancy]

Man, I get a kick out of all the touchy-feeliy suggestions! And I'm a card-carrying bleeding-heart liberal.

 

Sure, invite the little darling over for a "play date". And find social services there declaring you're a paedophile.

 

Pick up the dogs and run? Put yourself between the dogs and the brat? Use your commanding voice and correct him? Might work if you're a 6-foot, 200-lb young male. I'm a small older woman. I sure could strike fear in my own kids, but this one sounds as if he enjoys being aggressive and mean - and is allowed to do so. And I came across 4-year-olds at Head Start who were almost as tall as I am, and definitely heavier. This kid would probably respond to someone bigger and willing to be nastier. But that's exactly his problem.

 

This kid needs to be with someone other than his parents. A foster home could be his grandmother's. She seems to be able to control him.

 

If you call the newpaper or a TV "troubleshooter", just give the story you've given us and ask if there's anything you can do. Especially mention the police response, or lack thereof. And let them know that Animal Control is involved.

[Beth G]

Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from. You have to yell in a big loudman voice(like my husband) or you actually kick this kid's butt to get him to listen. TRUST ME. I have watched him respond to grandma only when she does. His mom gets nowhere coz she doesnt do anything. His Dad is never around. He is a trucker on the road alot...

[Joe Anne]

Beth G... I in no way think you are exaggerating!

I have absolutely no patience for brat kids, or their parents, who "usually", let them get like that!

Why anyone suggest that you take on the task of "curing" this child, is beyond me. After all that you have told us, seems to me you have done all the right things... sometimes it is out of our "civil" control, and it takes on a whole different aura!!! You have done what you can "alone".

Can you and the other neighbors who are complaining start a neighborhood petition, or a "group signed letter"? about this family? Or better yet all show up on their front door step at the same time, "a sorta controlled lynch mob"!! LOL

When you call the police have you spoken to a supervisor or someone higher up?

I like the suggestion of taking 1 pup out at a time, as a start for you having more control.

Hmmm , how about an electric cattle prod! One touch and a little zap with you screaming like a mad woman, just may turn the little devil child away!

Other than the obvious animal cruelty, seems to me, that you have several issues that the police could/should be addressing to the parents. A soda can through your childs bedroom window! Him abusing his sibling and other neighbor kids!!

I think you have done an amazing job at not smacking this kid, or worse!!! Don't let this family and their little brat, get you or your dogs in legal trouble! You do what you have to do! and if that means this child goes to someone else, then so be it. You and your hubby's conscience should be clear, since you both were in foster homes, God knows you would not do that unless there was no other choice... it is for your family's well being, and that comes first! PERIOD...

PS... Like Nancy, I too have been accused of being one of those "so called", bleeding heart liberals , but even we have our limits and draw our lines in the sand! and this kid would have crossed the line with me a looooong time ago!

PS... hope your hose is HIGH PRESSURE!!!!! :mad: Good Luck, keep us posted.

[2 Devils]

I am a small woman and I have learned to have a booming voice and the "look" but I do know some folks just don't have that. I can yell with the best of them and I am only 5 feet tall.

 

There is always a chance that this kid does have some medical condition that causes these problems. I have a friend whose son cannot be trusted around animals and such things but his mom knows there is a problem and he is in treatment and has been since he was 2 years old. He has some medical issues that cause some of the horrible, violent, abusive behavior but it is also somewhat mental. This is not an excuse for the behavior and his parents should be dealing with it and if they don't they are liable...

 

You still need to take matters further by making the authorities listen and threaten to go public if the police do nothing. That could help make them want to do something instead of acting like jerks. Maybe talk with your other neighbors and see if they would be willing to go public with you so you don't look like you are the only one with the problem.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Beth G]

Ok animal control just left. they told me that they will speak with the parents and I see them over there now.

 

I was told to call AC tommorow as the man from AC now needs to go speak to his supervisor as this is a very unique case- due to the age of the child.

 

I'd love to hose the brat and am entertaining thoughts of doing so...l but honestly I probably won't as he is after all, just a child. But man I can think it!!!

 

 

Yes I've spoken to neighbors and think we all should go over there soon but right now one of them is recuping from a massectomy.

[Shetlander]

Since animal cruelty is very often ignored or minimized, I would go the route of child protective services (I would also guard and protect my dogs like a tiger). Based on 20 years in the mental health field, I would report this family to protective services for 1. Leaving a violent 4 year old unsupervised with a baby 2. Allowing a 4 year old to repeatedly abuse animals, which puts the child at risk of being bitten or attacked. 3. Grandmother kicking a 4 year old --- all wildly unacceptable!!!! This kid is obviously disturbed whether through genetics or mistreatment or very likely a combination of both. Protective Services almost always hates to remove children from their families. The foster system is groaning at the seams and it's expensive to keep children in placement. Although everyone associates PS with removing children, they can also provide a lot of services to help keep children with their families and improve circumstances.

 

Something needs to change with this family because things are likely to only get worse. The baby will be badly injured. The boy will kill an animal. An animal will maim the boy. The possibilities go on. As an aside, animal cruelty is never a good sign in kids and has been correlated with serial killers, but not every child that abuses or kills animals grows up to be a multiple murderer. But it's a very serious sign that something is very wrong with the child and/or family.

[Beth G]

I agree, thank you I will phone them now.

[Claire Owen]

Ok I'm getting the idea from what you all have said that if he gets taken into care then it'll be permanent. Is it not like over here where a child can be put in foster care for a period of time (not forever) and the returned to their family after both parties have had time/punishment to understand that things need to be done differently?

And I'd probably report him to socail services (child welfare thing) for tipping the pram over with a baby in it (just so they take more notice as it harms another child)... or rather report his parents for letting it happen. And point out that he has violent tendancies toward other children and animals. I'm thinking that yes the parents are largely at fault -most children at that age would want to play not abuse, to me thats a sign that theres something wrong on a mental level. You say he doesnt respect women, does his dad physically abuse his mother, that could explain the violence as well???

Keep hounding the police, I would, and animal control and child welfare and anyone else you can think of. I think a signed neighbourhood petition delivered to the police, possibly, might be an idea too.

I dont envy you at all, I'd have lost it completely by now. I dont lose my temper easily but I'm very protective over loved ones, especially ones that are virtually defenceless (my pets)!

Keep us updated, I'll be very interested to hear if anyone gets round to doing anything! I feel for you hun!!

Claire

[Meg's mum]

I'm beginning to think that contriving to scare his soul out of him might be the right policy. We can only dream but it would be viscious fun to figure out what his cultural demons were and then put a speaker collar on your dog. You'd have to learn Serbian or whatever and come up with a terrible threat. How to make their eyes glow red?

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Claire Owen:

Ok I'm getting the idea from what you all have said that if he gets taken into care then it'll be permanent. Is it not like over here where a child can be put in foster care for a period of time (not forever) and the returned to their family after both parties have had time/punishment to understand that things need to be done differently?

I'm not familiar with the Washington social service system, but in general foster care is supposed to be a safe place for children while protective services tries to salvage the family. It depends on what is going on with the kid (how bad the abuse/neglect, how long it's been going on, if the parents are arrested, etc.) as far as whether the child is removed at all. Once the child is actually removed, parents are almost always given plenty of chances to pull their act together and have the children returned. In really horrible cases, losing the kids is pretty much a foregone conclusion but there is still due process before a court will decide that a parent loses rights permanently. Everyone tends to take terminating parental rights very seriously because the parent/child bond is so basic and deep to our nature (or it should be). And no matter how bad or worthless we might think a parent is, most kids still want to be with their moms and dads.

 

So the goal is almost always to return children to their parents, but this does not always happen because some parents simply can not or will not do what they are being told by the court. You sometimes see this with substance use, especially meth. And some parents are so bad and have done such unspeakable things to their children, that they are unable to get rights back. There are also children in the foster system whose parents are deceased but there are no relatives available or willing to take them. Once kids are permanent wards of the state they're usually open for adoption, but it's harder to find families for them if they're older than babies/toddlers.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Meg's mum:

I'm beginning to think that contriving to scare his soul out of him might be the right policy. We can only dream but it would be viscious fun to figure out what his cultural demons were and then put a speaker collar on your dog. You'd have to learn Serbian or whatever and come up with a terrible threat. How to make their eyes glow red?

Don't get me wrong, I'd want to string this kid up if he was hurting my dogs, but this is still a four year old human being who sounds seriously emotionally disturbed. He no doubt comes by this behavior honestly (mental illness, witnessing violence, being abused are all possibilities). He probably lives a life much worse than any of our dogs. He isn't the average "bratty" kid who can be straightened out with a quick whack on the butt or by being sent to bed. He's a very young child who is very messed up. Trying to terrorize him isn't going to help. For one thing, he might have been through much worse than anything you could dream up or have the stomach to do to him.

 

He's FOUR. Think of an average four year old you know and maybe love. Compare that child to this kid. Something is really wrong here.

[Claire Owen]

Thanks Liz, it sounds the same as our system the, I just wasnt sure as all the previous comments sounded like if the child was taken into care then it would be on a permanent basis. And I agree there IS something wrong with that child, through no fault of his own - even if he is a little brat!!!

 

I hope something can be done soon, for the dogs sakes, the childs and his sibling by the sounds of it!!!

[Beth G]

Originally posted by Meg's mum:

I'm beginning to think that contriving to scare his soul out of him might be the right policy. We can only dream but it would be viscious fun to figure out what his cultural demons were and then put a speaker collar on your dog. You'd have to learn Serbian or whatever and come up with a terrible threat. How to make their eyes glow red?

lmao good one!!!

[Beth G]

He's FOUR. Think of an average four year old you know and maybe love. Compare that child to this kid. Something is really wrong here.

Exactly. That is what scares me. This is not typical 4 yr old behavior!!

 

Well I just got off of the phone with CPS and they are logging a complaint and sending someone over to talk to the parents tommorow. They told me that what's probably going to happen is he won't be allowed outside anymore without supervision...like that worked so well last time!!!!! Grrrr..

[Claire Owen]

Did you tell them that?

[Beth G]

yup that the mom was right there and did nothing BOTH times!! Thats all they can do to start I guess..

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

You might let the neighbors who had issues as well know you called CPS and advise them to document anything that happens. The more you document, the more you have to hand to CPS and Animal Control and the police.

 

If nothing else, perhaps CPS will spook the parents/grandmother into keeping the child under control just so they don't lose him (though it sounds like the mother doesn't care either way! Ugh.).

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[Beth G]

The neighbor is the ones who told me to call CPS as they have also. And I'm so glad she did.