My 4 months old puppy is hard to train

[monicah]

Thanks for all the advice. I will be patience with her and continue to train her as I have done before.

[Maralynn]

Is testing and dominating the same thing?

 

No. Testing is a stage where they're feeling out the boundries. Kids/teens test parents all the time, and they'e not trying to take over. They're just trying to see what they can get away. But deep down they like the security that boundries offer. Your pup is alot the same way.

 

Dominance in a dog is a whole 'nuther ball game. A dominant dog will be pushing/testing all their life. They always positioning themsleves to be "top dog" and require an owner who is always on their toes. These are not dogs for your average person.

 

IMO people are too quick to jump on the dominace band-wagon. In the vast majoirty of the cases it is just a dog being opportunistic. Give a dog boundries, plenty of exercise and training and the problem is solved.

 

You still have to deal wth the teenage period where they loose their mind for a while, but at least a dog goes through it much quicker than a kid!!

[monicah]

IMO people are too quick to jump on the dominace band-wagon.

 

That happened to dog owners here the moment Cesar Millan appeared on TV.

From the way you described a dominant dog, I don't think Keira has ever been dominant.

[Shetlander]

As far as dominance or testing, I guess at some point it becomes a matter of semantics and world view. I do see dogs as opportunistic and my dogs seem to test what various people will let them get away with. I have a two friends who come by at noon a couple days a week to let them out and play a bit. Every so often I find out one of the dogs is behaving in a way they never would around me. Just the other day I learned that Quinn is launching into them on some of his returns during fetch. This was a very unpleasant game I broke him of well before he turned a year old. So I was astonished to hear he was still pulling that stunt with them.

 

My Sheltie is the most submissive dog I've owned but also just recently I discovered she is throwing herself against my antique door when they arrive for their visits. I found this out when I came home around noon last weekend and she must have thought I was my friends. When I asked my friend about this behavior, she thought telling Sassy to sit before opening the door was enough of a reprimand. So I shared my very advanced training technique of yelling "SASSYKNOCKTHATOFF!!!!!!" She expressed amazement that after one correction, Sassy is no longer continuing her project of ruining my door. I need to check how Quinn is progressing on better manners when playing fetch with them.

 

I think it comes down to canine nature. Like human nature. We all do what is rewarding and avoid what is not. Plowing into people is fun for Quinn while shrieking and crashing into the door is fun for Sassy. When it becomes not fun, they stop doing the behavior.

[Shezrie]

you come out of nowhere and throw her on her back. If I were her, I'd be mildly terrified of you, because you react in a very aggressive fashion to normal behaviours from her.

 

Plus, you keep throwing her on her back and I'd go out of my way to not interact with you if you did this to me as well.

From this snippet it seems clear that you understand that puppies don't automatically know what you want, and that they have short attention spans, and that getting them to learn can be a challenge. This is common sense and pretty accurate. So knowing what you know, I wonder why you then leap to the conclusion that your puppy is all those things but also dominant. Maybe she is just all those things and not dominant at all? It sounds like the only animal in the house who is obsessed with dominance is ... you, frankly.

 

I have to agree with Maralynn that rolling one's dog might make you feel like hot shit, but it doesn't really tell your dog anything that they understand. I bet you would see the same results from an NILF scenario without hurling your dog on her back and demanding she comply with a "dominance" paradigm that she really does not understand at all.

 

RDM

I think that what you have said is entirely unfair and in fact very rude.

 

I don't 'throw' my dog on her back and never have. Twice she was rolled GENTLY over to expose her stomach. Such behaviour as a sign of submission is a fact! AND it worked! And thank you for your totally uninformed and rude opinion, but it WAS dominance that was the problem, you seem to think that that is not even a possibility for some reason beyond my comprehension, as though it is beyond the ability of a dog to be dominant.

 

I have NEVER aggressively acted towards my dog in any way. I have firmly disciplined her in a correct manner. And for your information, though I suspect you will totally ignore it and keep leaping to totally wrong and insulting conclusions, my dog is NOT remotely afraid of me and never has been.

 

You may disagree with my opinions and may leap to utterly the wrong conclusions, but you should at least have the decency not to insult me. You are not here in my house, you don't know what is going on...no...you leap to the most insane of conclusions and accuse me of cruelty to my dog. How dare you....you don't know what you are talking about.

 

You sit there and tell me that I am getting off on dominance...you sir are a very rude, insulting person who is talking out of their posterior.

 

And btw...just for everyones reference, I do not watch Cesar Milan. We don't even get that show in France.

[Withzia]

Shezrie, you wrote: ". I followed the books that said, 'aww, look at the widdle wuppy, coochie, coochie coo.' "

 

I'm really curious what books these are. Could you please give the titles and authors? (Even if they're in French, the names of the authors could mean something to us.)

[Shezrie]

Shezrie, you wrote: ". I followed the books that said, 'aww, look at the widdle wuppy, coochie, coochie coo.' "

 

I'm really curious what books these are. Could you please give the titles and authors? (Even if they're in French, the names of the authors could mean something to us.)

 

I would really prefer not too as that would stir up more trouble and arguing and this thread is hot enough.

[MrSnappy]

Twice she was rolled GENTLY over to expose her stomach.

 

Okay, if you say so. Who wrote your first post then?

 

many times I have rolled her onto her back in front of Zac when she is dominating him, so she gets the idea that she is below him.

 

*shrug* I guess "many times" and "twice" are the same thing in France. My bad.

 

Such behaviour as a sign of submission is a fact! AND it worked! And thank you for your totally uninformed and rude opinion, but it WAS dominance that was the problem, you seem to think that that is not even a possibility for some reason beyond my comprehension, as though it is beyond the ability of a dog to be dominant.

 

No, I don't think that at all. I did, however, count your use of the word "dominance" or a variant thereof 4 times in your pretty short first post/reply, along with three other references to it. I definitely believe someone has an issue with dominance in your household, but I don't think it's your dog necessarily.

 

I also notice you didn't address the fallacy of the alpha roll nor are you able to correlate how you rolling your dog several times (oops, sorry, twice) tells her that Zac is 'dominant.' I'm not too concerned with how many times you want to tell me I'm talking out of my ass, but I would love to hear your explanation of how an alpha roll, which does not exist in dog language, translates to the excellent results you seem to get from it. Maybe you can enlighten me?

 

RDM

[Maralynn]

Hmm, from your original post it sounded as if the Alpha rolling was a common/ongoing occurance

 

and many times I have rolled her onto her back in front of Zac

 

But she was very difficult to train and all she wants to do is go for our older border collie and bite his face. The biggest hurdle was establishing dominance over her as she is hands down the most stubborn dog I have trained. If I asked her to sit, she would do it very slowly. If I asked her to give paw I would get a look back, just like you have described, then finally she would do it after I persist, as though she was doing me a favor. She considered herself top of the pack and it took much effort to remove that notion from her stubborn border collie brain.

 

This is your first puppy. And it is a high drive working puppy. The biting is very, very common in high drive working puppies. I lurk on a working dog forum and most of the folks there would love a pup like yours (I'd love one). And they would all be disagreeing with you on forced submission, ie, rolling. It may have worked, but it is not a good training method. I would strongly encouage you to read some books on canine behavoir if you want to effectively communicate with your dog.

 

Your pup sounds like a feisty drivey puppy that would be a blast to work with. They are not stubborn, they are smart as a whip and it keeps a person on their toes during puppyhood. It is as much work as raising a toddler for the first year.

 

If you want an easy puppy, don't get a smart working breed pup.

[Shezrie]

I am not getting into it with you Mr Snappy as you are very rude, looking for an argument and making rediculous judgements from your 'holier than thou' horse. I have nothing to prove to the likes of you, you do not know what is going on with my dog and me. Nope you would rather just insult me from your own idiocy.

 

As for the 'many' thing, you are being rediculous and nitpicking, twisting my words to make an argument.

 

Whatever I say you will just pick apart and make more argument, fact is that I despise such people as yourself that think they know it all and are policing everyone else. Perhaps you should come down off your high horse and accept the reality that you cannot make such judgements based on one post. Unless you are standing right here with my dog and in my house...who the hell do you think you are?! Do not even speak to me again, I will not answer, you are not worth it.

 

I wrote my post for the benefit of the OP from what I know from my own experience. Instead, completely unprovoked I have been flamed, insulted and challenged at every turn. Obviously trying to help someone out and be a part of this community is grounds for personal attack.

 

One last thing, Emma was adopted to me because she will not make a good working dog. That was not my judgment but one made by the farmer who bred her.

[jdarling]

Shezrie, if you don't want to explain it to Mr. Snappy, perhaps you can explain it to me. I have a dog who did the same thing when she was a pup, but I didn't interpret it as dominance, but rather having a bit of eye. To me, dominating her from here to Timbucktoo wasn't going to accomplish a thing. Doing exercises to free up her eye a bit helped.

 

I notice you say: "This is my first puppy..." That, to me, sounds like you're not drawing from a whole lot of experience, and even when the "alpha roll" was at its height of popularity, there usually was a disclaimer that went along with the suggestion of trying it that said something like, "Have a professional trainer show you how to do this." You ask Mr. Snappy, "Who do you think you are?" Well, I have a question. You're on an internet chat group suggesting that someone you don't know try a maneuver on a dog only recommended for experienced people because of the danger involved in it to solve a problem you haven't seen first hand. Said maneuver could harm not only the person, but the dog. So on that note, I ask, who do you think you are to make such a recommendation? And moreso, please explain to us how said maneuver specifically will solve the problem described.

 

Thanks.

Jodi

[Shezrie]

I am not going to justify myself any further in any way.

 

If you don't believe me or disagree, that is entirely your problem. I am rather amazed at the rediculous assumptions and attacks that have been made here. I believe that what I am doing is correct and the happiness of my little girl proves it more to me, my mind is not changed one whit. You seem to believe that I am into abusing and beating my dog into submission and nothing could be further from the truth.

 

I don't need a bunch of strangers misconstruing, criticizing and judging me when they don't know the actual situation and I certainly can do without the unwarranted personal attacks.

 

Think what you want, my part in this conversation is over. I came to this forum to converse with other BC lovers and to get advice on certain elements, instead I get abuse. Obviously this is not a very friendly place and the place is dominated by a few people who think they know it all and feel they have the right to abuse anyone who disagrees. I have actually seen this done to a fair few other people here in my lurking over the years.

 

Good day.

[jdarling]

If you don't believe me or disagree, that is entirely your problem.

 

Nope. No problem for me because I do not and will not use that method. It's the people that do that will have a problem.

 

I'm sorry you're unable and/or unwilling to discuss the philosphy behind the "alpha roll" that you so steadfastly believe in, recommend, and stand by.

[beachdogz]

I find that everyone gets so caught up with the “buzz words” of dog training, that they lose sight of the training itself.

 

“Dominance vs Testing” “NILIF” “Alpha Roll” “Resource Guarding” (we used to call it “possessive” – resource guarding sounds so much more “professional”) etc. etc. (and don’t worry, there will be a new buzz word tomorrow…but they all go back to the same old behaviors and solutions that trainers have dealt with since the beginning of time.)

 

I have to laugh at NILIF when everyone acts like it’s some new epiphany. We used it 30 some years ago when dealing with behavior problems. We didn’t have an acronym for it. We just said, “From now on, before you give the dog any praise, petting, or treat, make him do a command for the reward.” I guess “BYGTDAPPOT MHDACFTR” just wouldn’t have cut it. Heck, we should have written a book!

 

I never did believe in the “alpha roll” when it first became “the new thing to do.” Do I get any credit for that? I remember that our area was inundated with dog trainers who would do house calls for behavior problems and the first thing they would do is walk up to a big, adult dog and “alpha roll” him. No greeting…just a roll. Some got bit. All of them were men (seriously).

 

You know, (just an old dog trainer talking here), it’s just like real life. We tend to over-analyze everything.

 

Seems that most people agreed that this puppy probably needed rules, control, and some sort of discipline. Then everyone got hung up on the word “dominance” and the roll.

 

“Dominance” is just a word. The dictionary defines dominant as

“1a : commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all

1b: very important, powerful, or successful

2: overlooking and commanding from a superior position”

You can substitute it with its synonyms such as “leading, main, central, overriding, foremost, prevailing, principal, etc.” What it doesn’t say is that it is commanding “by force.”

 

When did the word “dominant” become a bad word?

 

All puppies need to learn the rules and some need more discipline than others. ….sounds like Monicah has a typical puppy who MAYBE has a “dominant” personality. And please don’t tell me that there is no such thing…I beg to differ on that! When I came to this forum and asked advice, I got all kinds of different perspectives. Some sounded good; some I thought, “Oh no….never.” But I keep ALL those ideas in my “little bag of tricks” anyway. As Shezrie pointed out…you can’t tell any situation just from a post. Every dog is different and every situation is different. Shezrie believes her “alpha roll” worked with her puppy…and maybe it did. I doubt that it did anything to ruin the dog. I remember people who alpha rolled their puppies and dogs a lot back in the 70s…didn’t produce any damaged dogs for those people. And if someone happened to get bit by a dog that would not accept that behavior, well, lesson learned. I believe that rolling and holding a puppy down used to be one of the exercises in the once-famous “Puppy Testing”. Does anybody do that anymore? Just curious.

 

Monicah came to this board for input. She now has many different perspectives that she can try. Some may work; some may not. Some she may try; some she may choose not to try. But when you get so wrapped up in “my method” and “my theory” and personally attack each other, then you defeat the whole purpose of a board like this, which is to provide information to others from ALL perspectives. If people are afraid to give their point of view, then much has been lost.

 

PS. Whoever it was on this board that told me that they were the “queen of tangent”, sorry, I might be out to steal your title!!

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I think in seeing pupy brattyness esp at 4 to 5 months old I'm glad we have an established pack. It helps to see a pup get away with being mean( for a lack of a better word) to other pups or a patient dog because you know they will try it with the wrong dog. I see no point in controlling your pups relationship with your other dog. If she is mean or hurts him he will fix it.

 

As far as stubborn I have a dog Pam Dennison couldnt get to sit. Maddie was the star pupil of her obedience class before 12 weeks at 5 months and 10 months I tested her for good citizen and she failed. Lack of maturity both times. someday I'll retest again.

 

Be patient

[monicah]

I had actually never heard of the alpha roll and didn't quite understand it. So I'd never try something like that on my puppy. I do not think it was necessary to be so rude to Shezrie. She just wrote what worked for her. I think I'll think twice the next time I ask a question here or even answer a question someone else is asking.

[jdarling]

I don't think anyone was rude to Shezrie. In fact, in re-reading the posts, I think it was the other way around.

[Shetlander]

When did the word “dominant” become a bad word?

 

I don't consider dominant a bad word, just one I'm cautious with because I feel it gets overused. Not one but two instructors I think are great told me that Quinn doesn't respect me and thinks he is dominant because...he didn't walk next to me and pulled on the leash when excited. The small fact that I had only taught him obedience heeling and never loose leash walking didn't seem to matter to them. That's when "dominant" became a tricky word in some conversations for me.

 

I believe that rolling and holding a puppy down used to be one of the exercises in the once-famous “Puppy Testing”. Does anybody do that anymore? Just curious.

 

Yes, some people do. Often when the pup is about 7 weeks old.

 

I see no point in controlling your pups relationship with your other dog.

 

I used to take that approach with my dogs but after a 50% fail rate, the latest between Quinn and the Lhasa, I now step in when I feel it is appropriate. I've found that dogs in a forced pack (no way would Quinn or Chili ever voluntarily hang out together) do not always "work things out on their own."

[Shadows Mom]

I love how rude people accuse everyone else of being rude.. makes me chuckle. Would love to see her try and roll a truly dominant dog.. I would imagine -CHOMP!- I have a wolf mix here, wanna try it?

[beachdogz]

I don't consider dominant a bad word, just one I'm cautious with because I feel it gets overused. Not one but two instructors I think are great told me that Quinn doesn't respect me and thinks he is dominant because...he didn't walk next to me and pulled on the leash when excited.

 

LOL to dominant because he pulls. Like all buzz words, I'm sure it's abused.

 

Yes, some people do. Often when the pup is about 7 weeks old.

 

Do they still roll them and hold them down? Once again, just curious.

[Root Beer]

When did the word “dominant” become a bad word?

 

For me "dominant" became a "bad word", so to speak, when I realized that it is used as a "catch all" word to explain any and all "bad behavior" that is attributed to many pet dogs. The result of that seems to be many pet owners being instructed by "trainers" to "dominate" to eliminate bad behavior. And this "domination" usually comes in the form of alpha rolls, annoying noises, scruff shakes, leash pops, use of corrective collars, or verbal corrections given in a "growling" voice so that the dog will supposedly think the human owner is, in fact, a dog giving a dog to dog correction.

 

That's just not the way I've learned to go about teaching a dog to behave appropriately, so I don't use the word "dominance" when explaining why a dog is engaging in inappropriate behavior, nor what the owner should do to change the behavior.

 

Don't get me wrong. There are absolutely instances when dogs need boundaries and there are times when behavior needs to be changed. Canine behavior modification is a huge interest of mine.

 

But the word "dominance" falls short when many dogs behave inappropriately out of ignorance (truly not knowing any different) or fear. "Dominance" fails to take into account that dogs are actually members of a different species and that many behaviors that are inappropriate from our point of view make a whole lot of sense to them and have absolutely nothing to do with trying to "take over" or "dominate". Again, that's not to say that those types of behaviors should not be changed, but to me assuming that everything a dog does that I might not like is "dominance" truly just doesn't cut it.

 

I like to ask students in my classes why their dogs might be engaging in behaviors like bark lunging, pulling on their leashes, jumping on people, resource guarding, trying to visit with other dogs while out on walks, etc. It is usually an eye opener for them to even consider that their dogs are most likely doing those things for reasons other than "being dominant". Many pet owners have been thoroughly conditioned to think that every behavior problem is a "dominance issue". I love it when they realize what a limited view, and often inadequate, view that really is.

 

Also, that's not to say that there aren't dogs that truly have dominance issues, but from what I've seen among the average pet owner, those dogs really are few and far between and that most dogs that get labeled as "dominant" really need to learn some specific manners skills and the owners need to learn how to be clear and predictable to their dogs.

 

So, that's my problem with the term. Like the word "aggressive" it is often over-used and used imprecisely.

[Shetlander]

Do they still roll them and hold them down? Once again, just curious.

 

Not sure about the rolling part, but they place the puppy on his back and hold him down. They also hold the puppy in their arms with him on his back. The hoped for goal is the puppy is supposed to struggle a bit, then relax and be ok or be ok from the start. Fighting or becoming rigid with fear are not considered optimal responses.

 

Quinn fought and carried on when held down, then refused to go to the tester for the next part of the test. I laughed about that when I read the results, thinking that just showed good sense but was told it meant the dog could be resentful and shut down in training. I didn't think it would be an issue but I will say Quinn can be a sulker though he jollies out of it easily enough in training. I've seen it more with people he isn't bonded to, like instructors or vets -- mainly vets. And there are times in regular life when I'm fine with him sulking if that is what he chooses to do.

 

I think another problem I sometimes have with the dominance approach to living with dogs is it seems people sometimes forget about training the behaviors they want and put their big emphasis on showing the dog who is in charge.

[bc4ever]

When we had Scooter in Puppy Kindergarten, the instructor used to tell us to hold him up, hands outstretched and under his front legs, letting him sort of hang there in the air as a way to show we were in charge, and to hold him like that till he relaxed and stopped squirming. Tried it a few times. Didn't really do much. Someone in the same class called him aggressive. The instructor told them that if Scooter was aggressive, he'd have had their pup by the throat by then! Dominant, aggressive, alpha...all labels used too often IMHO. Probably more like a lack of knowledge or misinformation on the owner's part. Not always certainly, but sometimes. And that's not a slam--we learn as we go. We're still learning! As most of the people on this board who have more than one BC will attest to, their dogs come in different colors and personalities. That's part of the fun--figuring out what makes each one tick. I just think we need to be careful about assigning labels to certain behaviors. I believe dogs (and people) do what is expected of them--good and bad.

[martySQ]

I had to grin as I read through this thread...very interesting stuff here. My cat has 'rolled' a couple of puppies and an adult papillion before, but probably not the way referred to here...a good swat for a pup not minding the the cat rules has sent a few rolling ...fortuante for puppy, no claws...

[Eileen Stein]

Shezrie, if you're still here, I think you were absolutely right in your intuition that the roof fell in on you because you used the word "dominance." It's a word that evokes a knee-jerk negative reaction from many people, and I think it colored people's perceptions of what you did (e.g., "hurling your dog on its back") to your pup. It has negative connotations for me, too, although I recognize that it's often just a matter of semantics. If you had used "respect" or "control" or some variant thereof instead of "dominance," I don't think many would have disagreed with you -- certainly not so persistently. Nearly everyone would probably acknowledge that an essential part of having a well-trained dog is that your dog respect you and understand that s/he must defer to your wishes.

 

What I visualized from your post was that you rolled the pup onto its back and held it there so that it couldn't continue to attack the other dog. I didn't get any sense that you threw the pup on its back, or caused it pain or fear, or got in its face. Going back to reread what you wrote, I still don't see that. That's not something I'd call an "alpha roll" (another loaded term), but others might. As to whether it's something dogs understand in the context you describe, I think it is. I have no idea how wolves behave, but I have often seen pups in a litter put another pup on its back when the other pup was overbearing and bullying. I have seen the mom do the same. They hold the pup there for a few moments, as if to say, "See, you can't do that," and then let it up. The pup usually slinks away abashed, and then comes back and plays with more restraint. So while I guess the current theory is that this doesn't happen, it's hard for me to accept that theory in the face of actual observation to the contrary. (Even if dogs didn't do it to one another, that wouldn't necessarily mean that a dog couldn't learn from it -- dogs don't hold other dogs on leashes either, or give them treats.) I also can't agree that you shouldn't interfere to protect the older dog because he will take care of it himself -- some do, but some don't and they shouldn't have to suffer torments from an unmannerly pup.

 

People often disagree over training philosophies here, but I appreciate your trying to share with us what has worked well for you.

 

Does she really know what the word "sit" means? Will she sit from a down? Will she sit when your back is turned? Will she sit when you give the command when you're sitting or laying down? Have you worked on the command in several diiferent areas - inside your home outside your home, at different locations, etc? If the answer is no, then she really doesn't fully understand what you are asking her.

 

While this is a good point -- it's easy to fall into the error of thinking that a dog fully understands the meaning of a command when it has only demonstrated knowledge of one facet of it, or only in particular circumstances -- I don't really see that it applies to this situation. Yes, if the OP was asking the dog to sit while her back was turned, etc., and getting frustrated when she doesn't, thinking the dog knows the command because she will sit when the poster is standing facing her, then it would most likely indicate confusion on the dog's part rather than obduracy. But as the poster describes it, the dog is refusing the command in the exact circumstances where she has shown comprehension of it in the past, so whether or not the dog understands all the ramifications of "sit" doesn't seem relevant to me. She understands this one.