Weaves

[in2adventure]

Grady is 5 1/2 months and has been with me a little over two weeks. His basic training is coming along well. Very gradual and easy going. Sit, down, stay, behaved leash walking (i don't require a perfect heel, just no pulling and don't use me as a MayPole), the usual stuff. He will be an agility dog (and possibly herding - boy is he herdy!) when he gets old enough and I've started getting him used to different things such as walking through the jumps (NO height) and over or around scary things to build confidence.

 

My question is about weaves. Lucia started weaves at a year old by getting led through them. It took an extremly long time for her to catch on (could be her, could be me) before she started driving them. She still is not consistent in trials and sometimes walks them during competitions. I was wondering if anyone here uses the channeling method for their dog and if so, how young did you start them? I know weaves are way to hard on joints of puppies, that's why I was thinking of getting him started on this method early so by the time he's able to "run" the weaves, he'll already be on his way there. OR, is the bent pole method better. Either way, I would need to buy "real" weaves intead of using my homemade stake into the ground poles.

 

I am not rushing things, I just want his early training to be geared towards the end result. Lucia had a GREAT foundation when we started, but I was truly a novice trainer (and still am) and don't want to make the same mistakes on dog #2. Or better yet, I want to be better prepared with dog #2.

[bordercolliesrock]

I've been working with Gracie in agility basics (yes, the Gracie from GA around Christmas last year that Dixe's Dad & then Journey fostered) since she was about 6 or 7 months. My first agility dog (my JRT) I taught the weaves the way you did w/ Lucia & she has alwas been SLOW & inconsistent in them. I swore after trying & trying to fix the mistakes I made that I would make sure my next agility dog would have FAST & CONSISTENT weaves. So what I started doing w/ Gracie was first teaching her to drive a speed to a target. Then I introduced a fairly wide short set (6 poles) of channels & let her drive to the target through the channels. While the channels are still wide you can work on sending the pup to the channel from a variety of distances & locations. Since the channels are still wide you aren't stressing the pup's body but still getting a great foundation built. You can also work on entries (I use a clicker & two poles to start) without stressing the growing pup.

 

Gracie is about 10 mths now (& her growth plates have been closed a few months now) so I've steped up her weave criteria. Now the short set is almost closed & we've started doing the set of 12 channels fully open. So far its working very well. She is driving with speed through the poles to her target regardless of where I am. She's figuring out the entries but we're still working on them separate from the channels. Once I feel she's got the entries down with the three poles then I'll start combining the entries with the short set of poles.

 

I hope this helps some. Good luck w/ Grady, he's a cutie! Lucia is beautiful too, btw. I looove the white faces.

 

Lindsey & the BC crew-

Cappuccino, Neo, Axl Rose & Racey Gracie

[Shetlander]

I haven't used the channel method, but have used the the slanted poles/Weave-a-Matics. I dropped out of agility early this year but last I heard, 14 months is the earliest that is recommended for dogs to be doing the actual weaving motion. Otherwise, there is supposed to be too much stress on a still maturing spine. On the other hand, I wouldn't want the dog to have months and months of running through weaves easily then all of a sudden, when he is 14 months to have them become challenging. And those last couple of inches have been challenging enough for all my dogs.

 

For Quinn and the Lhasa, I used Susan Garrett's 2x2 method which I really like, even more than the WAM's. I love the clicker/thinking aspect to it. Even if you don't do 2x2, you can practice him practice entries by running through 2 open poles from all angles. But you would still not want to do too much of it to avoid it becoming boring for the dog. I only did some basic entry work with Quinn now and again his first year and started the weave training when he was 14 months. He was doing quite well within 3 or 4 weeks.

 

From my experience and watching other people train weaves -- channels, WAM's, 2x2, guide wires, even the old lure method -- I truly believe that any method will work if the trainer is consistent, keeps it fun and believes in the method. I can't imagine getting fast, independent, reliable weaves using a lure but I've seen a number of trainers achieve just that with their dogs.

[Blueborders]

I like Weave-a-matics personally. It really helps your dog learn the foot work. I also love Susan Garrett's 2x2 method and it's really helped my guys get the idea of entries and work their drive. What I'd do with Grady being so young is what Lindsey recommended-- work on his drive to a target. I wouldn't do a lot of true 'weaving' as he's so young but you can use your homemade weaves and place them in the ground where they are wide enough apart and just let him run thru them to the target. Just keep it short and fun!

[Guest blastoff]

5 1/2 months is way too young for a dog to be doing any sort of weaving motion. You could have him going down a wide open channel just to get him used to the poles but I wouldn't begin closing them at all until he is at least a year old. Otherwise, you'll be asking for back problems later in life.

[Rave]

I've never liked the idea of channels UNLESS they're moved together QUICKLY which you do NOT want to do with a pup. Stop and think what you're teaching a dog when you let it run by upright poles for months on end. Down the road you'll wonder why the dog is having entry problems.... well you've been teaching him to run BY upright poles...lol.

[PSmitty]

Lilly started weaves with the weave-o-matic. When we got promoted to a class that had the poles closed, I went home and taught her by luring her through. This resulted in pretty consistent weaves, but slow. Very slow!

 

I taught Alex using channel weaves, and I love the method! But, like Laura said, when you teach them, you want to have them closed up fairly quickly. Alex caught on fast, and I think we had them closed in a couple of weeks. He had very nice, fast weaves.

 

So, I'd recommend channels, but you'll have to wait until he's older, then.

[in2adventure]

Thanks for all the info everyone This helps a lot! I'll check into Susan Garrett's 2X2. I'm not familiar with it. I'm thinking the channel method might be the best for us, so i'll wait until he's 9-10 months to start his weaves. That way he can start the real weave motion about the time he's old enough to with out injusry risks. There is no hurry to start, just trying to get the best jump on things. I'll work on targeting and building confidence for now. Walking through the jumps and over the practice contact I made will do just fine for now. I messed Lucia up on a lot of stuff early on. Some of it was because I was in a hurry and some was because I had a one way only instructor.

 

They are totaly different to train and should make the process interesting. Lucia takes awhile to catch on and does it on HER terms, but once she knows it, it's ingrained forever. Grady on the other hand is a lot more willing to learn and tries hard for me, but it takes a lot longer for it to sink in. What he did today in two tries won't be there tomarrow

[CLW1]

Stop and think what you're teaching a dog when you let it run by upright poles for months on end. Down the road you'll wonder why the dog is having entry problems.... well you've been teaching him to run BY upright poles...lol.

 

Been there, done that. And it took a whole lot more time to fix the problem I'd created. I started way too young and spent way too much time with open channels. I would use the channel method again, but I'd wait to start until my dog was about 12 months old. If you use channels, wait until the dog is physically able to weave and then go quickly from the open channel to the closed poles. Also, channels in conjuction with weave-o-matics works really well.

[Root Beer]

From my experience and watching other people train weaves -- channels, WAM's, 2x2, guide wires, even the old lure method -- I truly believe that any method will work if the trainer is consistent, keeps it fun and believes in the method. I can't imagine getting fast, independent, reliable weaves using a lure but I've seen a number of trainers achieve just that with their dogs.

 

Then, to make it more interesting , a lot of people mix and match methods!!

 

I utilize, 2x2's, channels, guide wires, and a lure depending on what aspect of weaves I'm working on and what the dog needs at a given moment!!

[Pat W.]

I've done the weave -a matic method, lure method, and currently channel with wires. I like the first and last methods over the lure method I feel it makes a dog too dependent on your hand to guide. My first dog was the lure method, he was steady and very rarely popped poles but I could not get a whole lot of lateral distance on them so it did cause problems later in life with gambles when the dog had to weave away from you. My second dog was the lure and weave a matic... he was much faster and I could get lateral distance. My current trainee started channels with wires at age 14 months now at 22 mos he drives through them with them about 4 inches apart. I introduced a toy for him drive to at an early age and he blasts through them confidently. I just purchased my first set of upright competition quality weaves for him to start on once he is confident in class with them. Weaving cannot be hurried but I would also be very careful of starting too early . To be honest with you I was never much impressed by the 2x2's

[Rave]

I'm thinking the channel method might be the best for us, so i'll wait until he's 9-10 months to start his weaves.

 

I'd add at least 3-6 more months to that.

[3dogslater]

My current trainee started channels with wires at age 14 months now at 22 mos he drives through them with them about 4 inches apart.

 

IMO, that's far too long to leave the weaves 4" apart. The dog has had eight months of blasting through poles without having to really bend his body. One key issue I see with channel trained dogs (including one of my own) is that they tend to not have very much respect for the poles and will slam their bodies through the weaves.

 

Chester suffered through every method out there at the time - push-pull, luring, shaping, straight poles with wires, weave-a-matic, channels, channels with wires. Sophie was taught channels, and Zephyr was taught 2x2. Even though he's only two, his weaves are by far the best. He understands entries, lateral distance, focus despite distractions including thrown frisbees (his favourite toy), past food etc. I didn't introduce weave training until he was 16 months old and his weaves were trial ready in under three months and we took it slow. If I had trained his weaves once or twice a day for five minutes, I'm sure we could have been done in half the time. Once we had the four poles down, it only took two days to get him from 4-12-18 poles.

 

I've seen world class weaves trained with every method out there, and you'll find people behind each method who swear that their method is the best. Find one that makes sense to you and that you feel comfortable teaching.

[Ooky]

I am really interested in early agility training too. I understand I should not teach full weaves for almost another year (Odin is 5.5 months too) but just watched a video of the 2x2 method. Is there any benefit to starting that early? It doesn't have the same twisting as real weaves, at least in the beginning "gate" stage. Conversely, is there any detriment to starting something like that and staying at the introductory step for too long?

 

Also, Odin already loves weaving through table legs, chair legs, trees, anything he can find. Especially to retrieve his ball. Should I stop him from doing that like you would jumping? What if his motion looks normal and fluid and not too spazzy?

[3dogslater]

Is there any benefit to starting that early?

IMO, no. Your dog is so young - work on flatwork, focus, target training, wraping around objects, tricks and games, socializing and manners and basic obedience. The actually agility training will come much more quickly if you have a strong foundation. You don't need to start doing obstacle work at 6 months to have an amazing agility dog.

 

Conversely, is there any detriment to starting something like that and staying at the introductory step for too long?

YES! Your dog will learn to run between the "gate", not learning to bend their body, in effect the same thing and running down a wide channel for a long period of time. The beauty of both methods is the ability to progress quickly in small steps towards the finished product. The training goes so quickly there is no need to start a dog before they are 12 months old.

 

You will sometimes see dogs who stay at the "two gates almost in line" stage have problems progressing to six poles because for so long there has only been four poles. Once a dog has the idea on two gates, I like using a very narrow set of channels (in a different training session) to encourage the dog to focus forward for a long set of poles. I will also use channels to encourage foot work, although I do 99% of the weave training on 2x2s.

 

Odin already loves weaving through table legs, chair legs, trees, anything he can find. Especially to retrieve his ball.

There is a big difference between a dog playing and doing his own thing and learning to use his body, and a human having the dog repeat a specific movement over and over and over, like with weave training.

[Ooky]

Thanks, 3dogslater, that al makes total sense. We will work on flat work for now. I'm hatching plans to build a low teeter and get a practice tunnel, and we are working on our "target" command.

 

In 2 months, our local SPCA is offering a "puppy agility" class with miniature obstacles. Do you (or anyone) have an opinion on that - good, indifferent, or potentially bad for later?

[in2adventure]

All the info is great and VERY helpfull. I like the idea of mixes the different training styles and making my own. When we finally start on weaves, i guess it will all depend on how he responds to things and working from there. Now that I know there is more than one way to do things, it should (we hope) be easier and more efficient than the first attempt. Poor Lucia They alway say you ruin your first dog

[3dogslater]

I'd save your money on both the practice tunnel and the teeter If the tunnel is fabric, it won't teach dogs to drive though and bank - they'll have to run slowly to keep their feet on the floor instead of the walls, and there will be a lot more movement which can slow down a drivey dog, and upset a soft dog.

 

As for the teeter, I don't think that the slamming of a teeter is all that safe for a puppy either. I'd make a wobble board instead. You can work on motion and noise without the impact, as well as teaching shaping skills and hind end awareness.

 

our local SPCA is offering a "puppy agility" class with miniature obstacles. Do you (or anyone) have an opinion on that - good, indifferent, or potentially bad for later?

 

It would depend entirely on the skill of the instructor. I don't see any harm in introducing dogs to fun activities with their owners, building a relationship, etc. I introduced my pup to tunnels and planks and wobble boards, tugging around distrations, target work, shadow handling, flatwork etc. You don't want your puppy to learn that when they are around equipment they can run around like idiots, playing with other dogs

 

As as instructor, I find that people are in a huge rush to start their dog on equipment, and to start sequencing obstacles. I find that it is much less of an issue when people are working with their second dog than their first.

[MrSnappy]

Dana I will give you a million trillion dollars if you can train Wootie to do agility.

 

A Million, Trillion dollars.

 

RDM

[diane allen]

Dana I will give you a million trillion dollars if you can train Wootie to do agility.

 

A Million, Trillion dollars.

 

RDM

 

Wow. That is a LOT of money!! If I could train my malamute mix to do it (and love it), might there be a possibility??? Hmmmm.

 

Anyway: to avoid reiterating much of what has been said, here's my story:

 

1) dog #1 - started late in life, so youth was not an issue; lured and wired and took about a year and a half to get really good weaves - which she now has and loves. But that was a frustrating time for me (and her,no doubt).

 

2) dog #2 - started allllll that foundation work that dog #1 didn't have, and spent a year and a half doing that! No actual obstacles, but lots of other things to build confidence - wobble boards, narrow boards a few inches above the ground, jumping over logs and rocks on hikes, walking on all surfaces - and teaching him to really LOVE this stuff.

 

When I was sure his growth plates were closed (in his case, I checked at 13.5 months - I'm amazed at the dog whose growth plates were closed "several months" before 13 months - all joints, or just one that was checked???), we started weaves. I used Nancy Gyes' channel/x-pen/wire method - which should take six weeks from open just so dog's shoulders touch poles to completely closed. My guy had a brief setback when we had snow on the ground for a couple of weeks! But otherwise, progressed according to Nancy's plan (I'm sure it's on her web site; I got it from the Sept. 03 Clean Run - worth getting that as a back issue, as it addresses many different methods). My guy LOVES to weave and is fast and alternates feet and is generally as good as I could have hoped for. So - I vote for this method!

 

In competition, he has trouble collecting himself to slow down for weaves - but managed to get through half a dozen NADAC Weavers courses without issues.

 

I'm guessing that "puppy agility" isn't worth much, except perhaps exposure to other dogs, different surfaces, etc. I'd be concerned about "teaching" something that later you'd have to re-teach. THAT ain't no fun!

 

diane

[3dogslater]

Dana I will give you a million trillion dollars if you can train Wootie to do agility.

 

A Million, Trillion dollars.

 

RDM

 

Only if I get to keep him if I succeed!

 

Your little unwanted brindle Dwarf puppy did me proud at Superdogs...managed to nail his weaves with 10,000 screaming people and pounding rock music, and consistently turned in wickedly fast times. Whether or not he remembers his turning cues remains to be seen but he's a sweet Superdog already. Zephyr should make his debut at the Hallowe'en Kee-Gigg trial...paws crossed for that!

[Ooky]

I'd save your money on both the practice tunnel and the teeter If the tunnel is fabric, it won't teach dogs to drive though and bank - they'll have to run slowly to keep their feet on the floor instead of the walls, and there will be a lot more movement which can slow down a drivey dog, and upset a soft dog.

 

As for the teeter, I don't think that the slamming of a teeter is all that safe for a puppy either. I'd make a wobble board instead. You can work on motion and noise without the impact, as well as teaching shaping skills and hind end awareness.

 

Wow, thanks! I had no idea about the tunnel - I didn't even know what the real ones are made of. I am a beginner in the most literal sense of the word - at agility, dog training in general, and dogs in general! As for the teeter, the design I was looking at only tipped over a 1/2" pvc pipe on the ground, so maybe that is a "wobble board"? Or is that the thing where there's a square board with a half-ball underneath? Either would be fine with me, I just want a fun prop to add interest to training sessions. Thanks for the feedback on the puppy agility too. Maybe we will try "winter dogsports" instead, which has a tracking component (and a freestyle component...DH has supposedly banned me from the class for that reason but it sounds...strangely...intriguing.... ).

 

And in2adventure, I have heard you always ruin your first dog too. I guess Odin never had much chance with me anyway. I will keep reading the boards so as not to ruin him as badly as I might have otherwise. I am hopelessly stuck on dreams of having insane amounts of fun together doing agility, not necessarily winning anything. I am SO uncoordinated and such a novice trainer, I know that it'll be me that needs the most work. I'm sure Lucia doesn't mind you "ruined" her, she seems very well loved and now even has a new friend to boot!

[in2adventure]

And in2adventure, I have heard you always ruin your first dog too. I guess Odin never had much chance with me anyway. I will keep reading the boards so as not to ruin him as badly as I might have otherwise. I am hopelessly stuck on dreams of having insane amounts of fun together doing agility, not necessarily winning anything. I am SO uncoordinated and such a novice trainer, I know that it'll be me that needs the most work. I'm sure Lucia doesn't mind you "ruined" her, she seems very well loved and now even has a new friend to boot!

 

Everyone I compete with says the same thing. I would love to see Lucia run with a "real" trainer. I think she'd be quite good. She's still pretty young (2 1/2) and we are both learning a ton everytime we compete. I'm sure many of the mistake can and will be fixed. They are mostly mine anyway We have a trial this weekend. Should be a blast...always is

 

As for being "ruined", she's so spoiled, I don't think she know she messed up I love her just the same!

[Alaska]

One key issue I see with channel trained dogs (including one of my own) is that they tend to not have very much respect for the poles and will slam their bodies through the weaves.

Also, pushing the poles out of the way is not considered "weaving" by some people. In NADAC, this can even be faulted as unsafe obstacle performance.

 

In 2 months, our local SPCA is offering a "puppy agility" class with miniature obstacles. Do you (or anyone) have an opinion on that - good, indifferent, or potentially bad for later?

I don't have an opinion on that particular puppy agility class, although you are more likely to find a good trainer in their own agility-focused business than at an SPCA. One trainer near you that I can wholeheartedly recommend is Kathryn Horn.

 

In the meantime, rather than spending money on "toy" versions of real equipment, you would do much better to purchase and follow Greg Derrett's instructional video on foundation skills: Agility Foundation Training DVD. Might seem like a lot of money for a DVD, but this one is worth its weight in gold. A slightly cheaper alternative might be the book From the Ground Up by Kim Collins, but really I think there is no substitute for a video if you have never seen what good foundation training looks like. It makes no difference whether you have in mind competing or "just want to have fun." I can assure you that you and your dog will have a lot more fun following a well-thought-out program like Greg's than if you bumble around experimenting and leave the dog confused and uncertain and yourself frustrated and feeling like you're letting your dog down.

 

Not "you" personally, of course. Actually, if the truth be told, it's "me" I'm referring to in the previous sentence. Do as I say, not as I did....but you can be sure that I finally got around to shelling out for that DVD, and my dogs are very glad I did.

[Alaska]

If you're interested in the x-pen method of teaching weaves, Katrin Andberg has a very good explanation of her version here (pdf file).