Angie H Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 This IS about an Obedience Class; however, I posted it here because I am looking for insight from the owners of working dogs, not show or agility dogs. If it is moved, I completely understand and will know better next time... Binx and I had our first Level 2 Obedience Class last night (we skipped basic because it is boring and we already know sit/stay/down). We went to a local Kennel Club because there is a trainer there who's training methods I do respect (took other dogs to her in basic obedience). Also, I have gotten to know her well enough that I was able to share with her my concerns about keeping Binx somewhat "loose" and that I don't want him to be a dog that doesn't do anything unless I tell him what to do (I know agility dogs like this). I told her that we are working sheep (or learning to work sheep anyway) and I want him to retain his natural ability to read stock and think on his own...not wait for me to give him a command for every little thing. Yet, I do want him to be obedient in that he will listen to me over his instinct if and when I need him to call off, recall to me immediately in distraction, etc. I just thought it would be good for him to be in a class environment for the sake of learning to work with me in distraction. With all of that being said, I am a little disappointed with the class, and some of my concerns from our first class were: 1)They not only expect loose leash walking (which I also expect, and he's fairly good at it until we see Sheep), but they want Binx to actually "heel" - as in, do not go past my left leg when I tell him to heel, and stop and sit when I stop moving, etc. I realize this is a common thing in Obedience for SHOW...but this is Level 2 and I really didn't think it would be a big deal unless he was really pulling on the lead -which I do not allow. 2) I also have some concerns about their wanting me to teach him the "watch me" command. The asst. instructor did not like that Binx wasn't super focused on me and that he was looking around. Well, I have some reservations about whether or not I WANT him to focus on me ALL THE TIME. When I say his name, I expect him to look at me and wait for me to tell him what I want. Other than that, I do not care to have him gazing up at me all the time. And if he wants to look around while we're walking, who cares? Am I right? or no? The trainer of the class breeds and shows Standard Poodles. They are trained to the highest levels obedience, yet she also does tracking and retrieving with them. I did express some of my concern to her after class and she says that when her dogs are in the field, she uses the heel command while they are walking out, and they will walk by her side WITHOUT looking at her until she gives them a release. I suppose that isn't a bad thing... That's not even the end of my concerns for the evening though...a friend of mine (an acquaintance from church that used to show poodles) stopped in to watch us last night. After class I shared with her some of my concerns, and she said.... "One of my girlfriend's showed Rotties for years and now she herds with them. Yep, she bought herself some sheep and now her Rottie works the sheep and she has her friends' Rotties' come over to work them too, so of course you can do obedience and herding!" The instructors have told me that I can work on what ever I want while in class and that I don't have to stay "in the circle"... it is an advantage of being in Level 2 and also that the class is smaller. Another example, for the recall exercise. I put Binx in a stay, removed his leash and walked away...as I was walking he laid down. She said, "do you want him to do that?" I said, "I really could care less what he does as long as he stays in the spot I put him in until I release him...but if you want me to make him sit, I will." She said, "No, whatever you want is fine with us." In looking back...Binx was probably one of the most well behaved dogs in the room...just because he doesn't gaze at me while walking at my left knee does not make him any less obedient in my eyes. I bet if they took the leash off of their dogs outside, they would have one heck of a mess. Binx would not think anything of it, because he WANTS to hang out with me. She had the nerve to ask if I've ever used a PRONG COLLAR? WHAT?? This is a 7 month old sensitive Border Collie, who has no need whatsoever for a prong collar. His only weakness is me and that I did not teach him that he had to "heel" when we got to class. Do you think it's ok to stay in this class for 6 weeks? I don't want to screw him up...yet, I don't want to drop out at this point either.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 With all of that being said, I am a little disappointed with the class, and some of my concerns from our first class were: 1)They not only expect loose leash walking (which I also expect, and he's fairly good at it until we see Sheep), but they want Binx to actually "heel" - as in, do not go past my left leg when I tell him to heel, and stop and sit when I stop moving, etc. I realize this is a common thing in Obedience for SHOW...but this is Level 2 and I really didn't think it would be a big deal unless he was really pulling on the lead -which I do not allow. I would agree with this. I don't want my dog, off lead, going through the field or wherever to be ahead of me as we're approaching stock. Mine are told - get behind. Then they have to stay behind me, either side but not in front of me. Same at a trial, they can be off lead but they have to stay with me, behind me or next to my leg. 2) I also have some concerns about their wanting me to teach him the "watch me" command. The asst. instructor did not like that Binx wasn't super focused on me and that he was looking around. Well, I have some reservations about whether or not I WANT him to focus on me ALL THE TIME. When I say his name, I expect him to look at me and wait for me to tell him what I want. Other than that, I do not care to have him gazing up at me all the time. And if he wants to look around while we're walking, who cares? Am I right? or no? Ah, no big deal here. Don't do it if you don't want to. I too expect a "reaction" when a name is said. However, it depends on the circumstance. A simple ear flick is good in some situations She had the nerve to ask if I've ever used a PRONG COLLAR? WHAT?? This is a 7 month old sensitive Border Collie, who has no need whatsoever for a prong collar. His only weakness is me and that I did not teach him that he had to "heel" when we got to class. Actually, I would take it as more of a compliment, back-wards but no less a compliment. Sounds as though they may have thought he was trained on a prong collar hence is great behavior! Do you think it's ok to stay in this class for 6 weeks? I don't want to screw him up...yet, I don't want to drop out at this point either.... I would if for nothing more than the experience, the time invested into him just for the purpose of training, the environment and the social aspect. He's young? They need socialization. Put a positive spin on it, enjoy it and move on when you feel ready! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjones Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Hi Angie, I don't claim to know a lot, but here is my 2 cents. I guess I'm wondering since Binx sounds like he is well behaved, why he needs to be in the obedience class. Do you plan on showing, or just an outlet for you and Binx to have fun.? I think as long as Binx isn't pulling on the leash leave him be, so what if he isn't in a perfect heel position. As for the watch me, I don't recommend it. I have been to several Jack Knox clinics where there have been a few dogs/handlers that came from obedience backgrounds and instead of focusing on the sheep they were focused on the handler. I watched a Terv try and work sheep, or should I say handler, because every time the handler made eye contact or moved his hands the dog automatically looked like it was in the show ring. The handler spent his entire session moving the sheep himself. If you know Binx is sensitive and you already know he walks nicely on a leash, definately stay away from a prong collar. I think you know Binx's comfort level better than the instructor so if things make you uncomfortable don't do them. Samantha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Just another view on the heeling to go to work thing, and I know I've posted this before so sorry for repeating. I let my dogs range out in front of me as we go into a pasture or walk out onto the trial field. I want them walking out looking for sheep. They know better than to actually take off for sheep until they're told, and I do expect them to stay within a reasonable distance of me (and they know better than to try to bowl me over getting through the gate or anything like that). I have one dog who was trained to stay behind and especially at trials I am *forever* looking for her. It drives me nuts. If I look over my left shoulder, she moves to the right, etc. She also tends to focus on me rather than looking up the field for her sheep. I don't know if the two are related, but I have to wonder. Anyway, whether the dog should stay in a heel position or behind or be allowed a little ahead is really up to what you prefer. If you like one way over another, do what you like rather than what your instructor recommends. As for the "look at me" I wouldn't train it at all. When I tell Kat to "look," which for my dogs should mean "look for sheep," she invariably looks up *at me.* Gah! I send her never knowing for sure if she's ever even seen them, though over time I have learned to pick up subtle signs that she has. Karen's right that the response to the name being called may be as small as the turn of the ear. Since I also use their names when working as a sort of "refocus" signal, I don't want them looking at me every time I use their names. I expect them to understand situationally what I mean when I call out a name, if that makes sense. Like jack Knox says, when I call the name or say "Hey!" I want the response to be "What?" and not anything else. If you want to stay in the class, I agree it makes sense to do so for socialization purposes. Since your instructor seems amenable to giving you a little freedom within the class, I think I'd do the things that makes sense to you and not do those that don't. I want a dog who's obedient, but at the same time, I also can read my dog, and count on that ability to read my dog to tell me if the dog is being disobedient for a good reason (yep, they will give you "that look" when you ask for a wrong flank and they know it). So for work, I don't want "blind obedience" but "thinking obedience," which is what I gather from your post that you're also striving for. That's why it doesn't hurt to teach basic obedience/manners, a recall, etc.--things where obeying isn't really optional--while at the same time avoiding the "look to me at all times for direction" pitfall. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 I have one dog who was trained to stay behind and especially at trials I am *forever* looking for her. It drives me nuts. If I look over my left shoulder, she moves to the right, etc. Ughhh! I know what you mean, my Spree does that and it does drive you crazy, I'm constantly saying Spree? turning and she does the same thing as your dog ; -) , moves to the other side...I never know where she is ;-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Betty, I feel your pain. I'll yell "Kat?" and someone will invariably say, "She's right behind you!" J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip's Mum Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 If you want to stay in the class, I agree it makes sense to do so for socialization purposes. Since your instructor seems amenable to giving you a little freedom within the class, I think I'd do the things that makes sense to you and not do those that don't. Good questions and observations, Angie. And very relevant for me as well. I totally agree with Julie... We found Mick at a New Orleans shelter following Hurricane Katrina (can you say "scary?"). We put him in a "family pet" type obedience class immediately for purposes of socialization and structure (the trainer was a respected AKC obedience competitor). We decided to progress to the next level because we enjoyed it, but I pulled him shortly thereafter when the demand for precision heeling, etc. was apparent and in opposition to some of the behaviors we were looking for in herding, which we had just started dabbling in. With almost of year of weekend training now under our belts it's blatantly obvious that Mick doesn't have any natural herding talent (exacerbated by my inexperience). Besides having no eye, he still lacks confidence, can't take much of a correction, and worries alot while he's out there. And he spends lots of time looking to me for guidance, which I think is due mostly to his lack of confidence, but also to the massive amount of reinforcement he got while working in obedience. Calli will be a totally different story. Once she gets here (next week, YAAAYYYY! ) I'll be working with her on basic "life in suburbia" manners (loose leash walking, etc.), but have a feeling that whatever non-herding behaviors Anna has already taught her at the ranch should be all she needs, and we'll focus only on those behaviors that'll be naturally compatible with her herding activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie H Posted August 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Ok...you guys are making me feel better about this...Shew! Put a positive spin on it, enjoy it and move on when you feel ready! Thanks...that's what I will try to do and move forward. About the "watch me" thing....I am told by the stock world "Don't do that!"...and yes, I have heard the stories about folks that bring their dogs to clinics, etc. and can't get the dog to stop looking at them for direction. My Binx already has a natural Outrun...I wonder if he would still have that if had I started him in Obedience and Watch Me games before we went to sheep? Then I am told by the Obedience folks,"just use a different command...use Watch instead of Look and he'll be fine" I guess I just don't see the point of it for Binx. I did teach this exercise with one of my previous fosters because he was a reactive dog and if I could put him in a "watch me" or "focus" position, then I could distract him from the scary or exciting thing. I am currently teaching it to my BC foster, Cammie, because she has an unknown background and does not connect with people so much. So I make her "focus" (look at me) before I throw the ball for her, feed her, etc. The heeling has me less worried now after reading your feed back. It's just that I've just been told by so many people to be cautious of creating a mechanical dog, that I'm worried I will somehow mess up his natural ability to work. Possibly so cautious that I've created a dog that doesn't focus on me as much as he should? But i don't think so...he's pretty responsive, he just doesn't sit around looking at me all time. That's actually kinda weird, isn't it? I want him to be an individual for goodness sakes! Oh, and: I guess I'm wondering since Binx sounds like he is well behaved, why he needs to be in the obedience class. Do you plan on showing, or just an outlet for you and Binx to have fun.? This is just a social outlet for us to have fun together while getting more social experience for Binx. I had considered doing a beginner agility class because it sounded like something fun and bonding, but he was too young for that class (not to mention they would probably require a lot of "watch me" stuff too. So for work, I don't want "blind obedience" but "thinking obedience," which is what I gather from your post that you're also striving for. That's why it doesn't hurt to teach basic obedience/manners, a recall, etc.--things where obeying isn't really optional--while at the same time avoiding the "look to me at all times for direction" pitfall. YES, this sums up my goal perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Betty,I feel your pain. I'll yell "Kat?" and someone will invariably say, "She's right behind you!" J. Yep, me too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjones Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 I started out with dogs in 4-H doing obedience and showmanship. With my first border collie Annie, we did really well and we had fun, and eventually because of my instructor(who had border collies) got me into the wonderful world of stockdogs and trialing( and left obedience behind) Annie didn't have any problems transitioning from obedience to sheep. Now years later and a few other border collies, I am enjoying raising sheep and trialing in pro-novice and open. Like the others who have replied, I like my dogs to listen to me and be obedient, but I am not looking for the perfect sit, or heel. If I am going onto the trial field I like my dogs to be focused on looking for sheep and not on me, at home I can walk out in the field to check on sheep and know that my dogs are not going to run off to gather them up without me telling them to. I guess thats now my version of an obedient dog. To make a long story short, I think you will be just fine doing both obedience and working sheep, especially since your more concerned about obedience as a fun outlet and for socialization. Samantha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Well, I think it all depends on what works for you. I had obedient dogs that were trained for the trial field that walked behind me. That was their job. They did NOT walk by my side. I did this by moving the crook back and forth and they stayed behind me. A very useful purpose for trialing- didn't look good on the street. Usher, on the other hand is trained to walk on my left side as that is they way I lean- so I think that your idea of "obedience" should be what suits you best. JMO. There's a little BCX in my development that someone commented on, look how nicely that dog stays by his owner. I said he's got a shock collar on- he doesn't dare move. So, to each their own. I prefer training myself, might take a little longer, but doesn't zap the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Jen did that on her own - I never trained her to stay behind as I'm also of the opinion that I want my dogs up ahead looking for sheep - not acting, but looking. But, for some reason, Jen would hang back and do that thing where i I turned she'd turn with me. Ack. Add to that the fact that she was 16 1/2" tall and could make herself disappear in rough grass by merely crouching a little. "Jen?!?" "Right behind you!" It doesn't sound like your approach will be one to spoil your dog for working, especially since you are out there already and can gauge what you are doing as you go. What really kills people is years of drilling for obedience, then not only is the dog trained to respond to you and ignore outside stimuli, but also you are trained to think about and want to control every move the dog makes. Even if you don't act on it, the dog can still feel that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 When I got my first BC she wasn't good at herding- so I got another. She was great!! I did BOTH obedience and herding with her. BC's are smart and they know the difference between a choke chain and sheep. Some old timers told me I should NOT do both with her, but I did. I proved them wrong. I've seen some well bred rotties herd. They look kinda "doofy" around sheep. Most other breeds do, excluding the kelpie. They seem to trot and be not so focused like our loved ones. McNabs are good, too. But onto the discussion. Once you get on the trial field, your dog will see those sheep and forget about any obedience tips you ever learned. LOL. I think your main goal here is to have a well behaved dog and when you go out to the post, you want to look good- am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 What really kills people is years of drilling for obedience, then not only is the dog trained to respond to you and ignore outside stimuli, but also you are trained to think about and want to control every move the dog makes. Even if you don't act on it, the dog can still feel that. Yep, that's what I'm thinking, exactly! When I got Alex, I hoped to work stock with him. So far, that's not looking likely , but still, when I went into obedience class with him, it was mostly for the socialization and experience. Not so much for getting him to heel or teaching him to watch me at all times (in fact I didn't want that at all!). We did puppy class and most of a basic obedience and stopped there. I basically just raised him to be a good, well socialized, well mannered dog (still have some issues with jumping up, but nobody's perfect). I think you have the right idea, Angie. Donna! Next week??? How exciting. You know I want to hear all about it and see pics, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip's Mum Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 Donna! Next week??? How exciting. You know I want to hear all about it and see pics, too. You betcha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 About the "watch me" thing....I am told by the stock world "Don't do that!"...and yes, I have heard the stories about folks that bring their dogs to clinics, etc. and can't get the dog to stop looking at them for direction. My Binx already has a natural Outrun...I wonder if he would still have that if had I started him in Obedience and Watch Me games before we went to sheep? I've worked both with new to sheep otCh dogs and dogs that had no obedience before going to sheep. If the dogs have sufficient drive to work, it won't matter what the starting training was ( unless it was just abusive/cruel, obsessive, or blatantly permissive- which we aren't talking about here). If anything the dogs with training were easier because 1. they knew how to work with a human 2. they understood how to take a correction/when we were asking for "try harder" versus "stop that and try something different" and 3. they had a better relationship with humans in general. Most dogs benefit from balanced approach. Teach them when you want them to look at you, and when you want them to look at <insert object of interest here>. Take them to stock on a regular basis and *shut up and let them work*. People blame the obedience training when the dog is keeking its first goes on sheep - but more often than not its their incessant chattering about said training that has the dog turning around and going "huh?" Once a dog is hooked on sheep you are going to wish that dog remember who you were out there If the dog is born with a good outrun it will take some serious work on your part to screw it up. Dogs don't generalize, so he's not going to put together "on leash and watch Mom in the ring" with "off leash woohoohoo SHEEP!" eta I've had several female Rotties that would herd here, and they were driven and reasonably talented, if somewhat like corralling butterflies with a bulldozer. Never saw a male that would work yet. One day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 I'll be working with her on basic "life in suburbia" manners (loose leash walking, etc.), Calli will be fine in whatever situation she winds up in! She just got back from 2 weeks on the road all over Wyoming and Nebraska, and she travelled like a little trooper, and is as obedient as I like them to be. She was cool off leash wherever we went. What I like is pretty much what Julie described--I prefer they walk out in front of me, looking for stock (and "look" means to look for stock, not at me), as long as they don't have any tension on the leash (if there is a leash, which is actually rare). I want them to be able to be off leash anywhere, and come immediately when I call them, or down immediately. Other than that, I don't care what they are looking at... A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie H Posted August 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 I want them to be able to be off leash anywhere, and come immediately when I call them, or down immediately. Other than that, I don't care what they are looking at... Yeah, what she said - EXACTLY what she said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty Abel Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 Betty,I feel your pain. I'll yell "Kat?" and someone will invariably say, "She's right behind you!" J. Both of you have a canine "freestyle" dance step!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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