May training update - 18 months

[Denise Wall]

Here's the latest May training update:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHiXwRHO3K8

[kelpiegirl]

Really nice Denise. You really ought to do voice overs for all training videos- you are very good at that. I also love the production/directing of the videos.

Nice work- and May looks very good too- so young, but so steady.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

This is going to be such a wonderful resource for the future. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this! May is looking quite fine! Everytime you post one of these I go back and watch the whole series again and I catch something new each time. That alone has given me a couple of small "aha" moments in my own thinking, though May and Ted are quite different!

[Shoofly]

That looks great!

[Laurae]

Very nice, Denise. I can really see how practical work, like sorting and bringing the lambs over to another pen to feed or gathering the spread-out lambs, teaches lessons much more effectively than just working on exercises in the field does, and it's perhaps not a surprise that your least favorite thing to teach a young dog, taking off-balance flanks, requires artificial setups.

Are you going to put these videos together on a DVD after May is fully trained? I'd buy it!

[stockdogranch]

May looks wonderful, and the video--the green grass, the informative narration, etc. are all a bonus!!

 

A

[Chesney's Girl]

Wonderful video! May is looking great too!

[Denise Wall]

Thanks to all for the kind words.

 

KG, I'll let my production crew know you liked the video Clearly, it's only me doing all of this -- either by setting the camera up and working within that area, or trying to work May while videoing at the same time. As you can see, I rarely give commands while trying to capture something she's doing. It's hard enough just trying to keep up with the action.

 

Becca, It helps me to look at the old ones too. Sometimes I see something -- good or bad -- that I'd forgotten. It's been a pain at times but I'm sure I'll be glad I did it in the future.

 

Thanks Robin, Of course, you see her for real all the time.

 

Laura, Thanks for your comments on the practical work. I find there's very little that needs actual training if you use them in enough different work situations. I do hate training those off balance flanks though. Well, I just hate drilling of all kinds.

 

I probably won't do a comprehensive DVD in the end. There's really not much market for such things unfortunately.

 

Anna, Thanks I'd kill to see such lush green grass again. I could cry when I look at things now. Brown and dead just like last year. By next week I will have cut my flock at least in half. I hung in there last year but I just can't take this again. Very depressing.

[Mark Billadeau]

Denise,

 

I'm sorry about your fields; what a bummer. What a great series of videos on May.

 

Mark

[stockdogranch]

We're dead and brown here, too, although that is normal for this time of year. But given hay prices, I cut my flock in half just after Memorial Day.

 

A

[Tip's Mum]

Are you going to put these videos together on a DVD after May is fully trained? I'd buy it!

Superb, as always. Put me on the DVD purchase list as well...

[Denise Wall]

Thanks guys And thanks for the condolences on the field. You sure can't do anything about the weather but it still frustrates me. I hate selling sheep I wouldn't normally sell. I've spent a long time trying to develop my flock for my area and conditions.

 

Donna, thank you so much for your interest (you too Laura) but I can't see doing a DVD. There's not even a lot of interest here where it's free and easy to see. I'm glad I've done them though. It'll be neat to go back in a few years and look at them again.

 

Thanks again.

[MickeyDogs]

Denise,

 

May sure looks good and fun to train (or you make it look like it ).

 

We're dry here too. After a wet, wet spring we sure could use some of that rain now.

 

On to more pleasant things - May looks great! Thanks for the videos.

[Denise Wall]

Thanks, Deb. May is a lot of fun.

[Bo Peep]

Denise,

As always, I am in awe of your video's and voice overs. You are truly the ultimate trainer and have brought such young dogs into outstanding performances. I have no clue how long you have been training border collies, but your voice in training them shows patience and something that has helped me with my own "housebound dogs". Thank you!!

Dianne

[Denise Wall]

Hi Dianne,

 

Thank you for your kind words but as many who know me will testify, I am FAR (!!) from the ultimate trainer. One of my most glaring faults is that I do not try hard enough to change what's wrong with them. My goal is to produce a line of useful working dogs so I want to see how they naturally end up as much as possible. I will give you the patience part though. I have many, many faults as a trainer, but lack of patience isn't one of them.

 

As for my voice, that still needs work as well. But my mentor always said that they must love, or learn to love the sound of your voice. I try to think of it from the standpoint of what the tone, etc., of my voice is giving them - good or bad. If they don't love to hear your voice when they're right, they won't care as much about it when they're wrong. I'm not saying this very well, but what I mean is if they want to hear what your voice sounds like when they're right, it gives them something more positive to strive for than just the aversion of hearing it when they're wrong.

 

Anyway, thanks

[Shoofly]

Oh now, i just love thinking of you as the ultimate trainer.

 

I get the voice thing and it's a hard concept for less experienced trainers to master. Because i'm not the most mobile person (bad knees and ankles), i really rely on my voice a lot.

[Mark Billadeau]

Controlling my voice has been the hardest part for me to learn; it's a work in progress.

Mark

[Shoofly]

I've actually thought about recording the voice of some of the people who come out for lessons so they can hear what they sound like. I find the dogs pick up a lot of different emotions from me, way more than just "good dog" or "bad dog" tones, and i play around to find the most effective for each dog. Zac does well with a more exasperated tone for a correction rather than an angrier sound. Jet would shut down if i used a very angry tone with her, so she gets a belittling sort of tone a lot of times. And Spottie does best with a "you're a goofball, think about what you're doing" sort of tone.

 

I think all the voice stuff is interesting. I'll have to think on Denise's point -- "if they want to hear what your voice sounds like when they're right, it gives them something more positive to strive for than just the aversion of hearing it when they're wrong" -- I do believe using positive tones gives the dogs more feedback than just using negative tones, makes things more black and white for them. You're saying more than that though, aren't you Denise?

[Denise Wall]

I'll have to think on Denise's point -- "if they want to hear what your voice sounds like when they're right, it gives them something more positive to strive for than just the aversion of hearing it when they're wrong" -- I do believe using positive tones gives the dogs more feedback than just using negative tones, makes things more black and white for them. You're saying more than that though, aren't you Denise?

 

Yes, but I'll have to think on how to reply. It's something I'm feeling but having trouble verbalizing.

[Denise Wall]

What I said in Robin's quote is more like when they hear a negative tone, not only do they think, “What I'm doing is wrong, I need to change it to avoid hearing that tone more,” they think, “I want to do what it takes to hear that voice I love,” and also, “I want to hear that voice that tells me the partnership is good right now.”

 

I might use black and white extreme differences in my voice for a situation where I'm having to try really hard to make a dog understand that what they're doing is wrong (harsh tone) and they need to choose something else appropriate (very kind tone once they do). However, most of the time things are much more subtle and very dynamic. It has to fit the situation with me, the dog, *and* the sheep. If the dog understands me, and I give a harsher than necessary command because of something the sheep are doing, they will likely understand the reason. For example, if in the shed a certain sheep breaks and I need a stop really fast, I might give it harshly, and normally the dog knows I just need that done now and it needs to be really snappy with it. If, for whatever reason, the dog is a little put off, or I sense it might be, I would immediately follow that with a softer “stop” or “good” or something to let it know things are okay between us. Another example would be trials, where a larger percentage of the dog's concentration might be taken up trying to handle unfamiliar sheep in an unfamilair setting than listening to me. I might be a lot harsher than normal to get through at certain times and they would probably take it as I meant it.

 

It's really a moment by moment, dog, sheep, me, situation-dependent, emotional relationship type thing. I'm not always right on with it, for sure, and it's not always easy to be objective in those intense situations when you're wrong, but there may be things going on that are hard to appreciate from the outside. I think that's the way it is for many, many teams. There are just things going on others don't see or can't know. These dogs are bred to read signals from sheep that we can't even imagine. It is thought dogs and sheep can smell the different emotions in each other. It's not hard to imagine that also being bred to work with humans, they use these same skills reading us.

 

On the other hand there are people who couldn't care less about the dog but who know what that dog needs to hear and that works for them. For lesser beings such as myself, I rely heavily on the relationship with the dog.

 

And lastly, sometimes I find the whistle is more effective in communicating with a certain dog in a certain situation. The key for me is to know when this is true.

 

As always, JMHO.

[Bo Peep]

It's taken me many years to finally come to grip with using my voice. At first I was taught to growl at the dog because women have higher voices than men and usually when the dog goes crazy you would start screaming at them when they are taking off after the sheep. I watched an old video tape of me and my old dog, Migraine at a sheepdog trail that a friend taped for me. I clearly was NOT ready nor was she. Everyone else sent their dog on an away. Migraine's best side was an away, but no. Idiot me sends her on a come bye where she immediately takes the sheep into the woods with me screaming MIIIIGRAAAINNNNEEE!!!! LIIIIIEEEEEE DOOOOOOOOWN!!! The judge jumped out of an old buggy he was sitting in and patted me on the back. The entire time my friend taping the fiasco is laughing saying "Can I kill my dog now" After another year we went back to that trail and got 3rd place. Jump back on the horse!

But lately when I train, just for around the house stuff I use more of a calm mono-tone voice and it has worked wonders. It seems the dogs respect me more and also when Usher goes to his sheepdog trainer, I noticed that his voice is so calm. He doesn't growl like I was first taught. He is firm and has a way with his voice that is quite soothing. I guess that's why personally I feel so relaxed with him and so does my dog. Just some words from a long time novice.

[Laurae]

I've had the opposite experience. It took me forever to be able to growl at my dogs. I don't use a growl very often, but they tend to knock off the nonsense when I do. Sadly (and rather mortifyingly), I'm kind of a screecher. I hate it, and so do my dogs, so I have been trying to work on finding that elusive place where a softer tone meets firm intent. And I've also been trying to master the whistle for what seems like forever. I need to introduce Taz to it, but my tweets are still often pretty inconsistent when I'm under stress. I think tone of voice is a really important aspect of training sheepdogs, and I strive to communicate calm control one day...

[Eileen Stein]

Great post, Denise. Thanks for putting the thought into expressing what you were trying to say.

[Sue R]

Sadly (and rather mortifyingly), I'm kind of a screecher. I hate it, and so do my dogs, so I have been trying to work on finding that elusive place where a softer tone meets firm intent. And I've also been trying to master the whistle for what seems like forever. I need to introduce Taz to it, but my tweets are still often pretty inconsistent when I'm under stress. I think tone of voice is a really important aspect of training sheepdogs, and I strive to communicate calm control one day...

 

I think you wrote this with me in mind. I was working with Celt one morning and my adult daughter visiting us could hear everything from the bedroom window. As she said, "Did you hear yourself? I wouldn't want to work with you if you were yelling at me like that."

 

I am seeing that, when I do better with tone of voice and timing, as well as appropriate corrections, that Celt is a more willing partner and it helps him overcome his anxieties (and mine).

 

Thanks, Denise, for all your videos and posts. It seems each one opens a wonderful discussion with some terrific and thoughtful inputs.