May training update - 18 months

[Pippin's person]

I think you wrote this with me in mind. I was working with Celt one morning and my adult daughter visiting us could hear everything from the bedroom window. As she said, "Did you hear yourself? I wouldn't want to work with you if you were yelling at me like that."

 

I am seeing that, when I do better with tone of voice and timing, as well as appropriate corrections, that Celt is a more willing partner and it helps him overcome his anxieties (and mine).

 

Thanks, Denise, for all your videos and posts. It seems each one opens a wonderful discussion with some terrific and thoughtful inputs.

 

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. I recently watched a video from about a year ago when I was working Hamish and thought to myself what your daughter said to you. I was pretty embarrassed and felt bad for Hamish.

 

So, I've been working very hard at not sounding panicked. Then, someone told recently that I wasn't animated enough with Hamish. There I was working really hard to be and sound calm and it was maybe too calm or calm at the wrong time.

 

One of the things I find so fascinating (and Denise brought up so nicely) is the importance of balance at each step along the way--watch the sheep, watch the dog; direction, correction; pressure on, pressure off. It's like nothing I've ever done.

 

I really like watching all the training videos. Thanks Denise for sharing them.

[Sue R]

Robin - What made it doubly embarrassing was that I thought I was doing much better, and it still was very bad!

 

The complexity boggles my mind and is a great deal of the reason that I am such an extra slow learner. I tend to wonder what's going to happen and what I should do if it happens, and by the time I get only part way through thinking about what might happen and what I should do, it's long over and done with and the moment and opportunity have passed me by.

 

Doggone it, I wish I'd started this years ago when the mind and the body were younger!

[Denise Wall]

Great post, Denise. Thanks for putting the thought into expressing what you were trying to say.

 

You're welcome. But when I went back and read it today, I'm not even sure it makes sense

 

 

Thanks for your comments Sue and Robin. I'd say using one's voice the correct way is a continuing challenge for everybody, but maybe more so for women. I know it's always been a challenge for me.

[Sue R]

Denise - I went back and watched this video today, and was again so grateful for the clear commentary and terrific editing that made it enjoyable and instructional. You have a nice way of explaining things briefly. It's put me close to tears of frustration (again) at not having sheep to work with at home so that my dogs and I can progress at better than a very slow snail's pace. One of these days...

[Denise Wall]

Thank you, Sue. You're so nice to say that

 

Alls I can say about the sheep is go on get you some of them. I love them.

[Sue R]

I do want some very badly and it is the fencing that is the primary issue. We are trying to work out how we can afford to get it done (new barn this year, still needs the concrete floor, cost a bundle but we couldn't put it off any longer).

 

Well, fencing, a secure shelter, and figuring out how to protect the doggone critters - our cows don't need a guardian but sheep would. I haven't wanted an LGD because I didn't want another dog but we like our relatives' LGD a great deal and he's making me a convert.

 

I do have potential sources for the sheep if I can just get the facility and the guardian worked out. I am sure having sheep would make all the difference in the world for myself and the dogs, as we only get to training on sheep once a month at best.

 

Thanks for the encouragement! Your sharing of your videos (and Robin's, and other folks', too) are so helpful for folks like me, especially as our opportunities for instruction and experience are so limited.

[juliepoudrier]

Denise,

I finally was able to watch the video with sound. Great job! I really enjoy watching May's progress and especially your approach to training because I think it's the approach I am most comfortable with. I understood your explanation about use of voice--and I think what you say about your relationship with your working partner is quite important. Thanks for sharing these with us!

 

J.

[Denise Wall]

Thanks, Julie. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

 

Sue, go for it with the sheep. You can get them pretty cheap right now, unfortunately for those of us selling.

[PSmitty]

Like Robin, Sue and Laura, I struggle with this issue, too. Tone, volume, inflection, the whole nine yards. A couple of lessons ago my trainer had to tell me to ease up, my tone was too harsh. "Listen to yourself!" she said. "OK, sorry!" I said. She told me, "Don't apologize to me, apologize to your dog". Aww, man. The good news is, he didn't hold it against me.

 

I've loved reading this thread. Thanks, ya'll.

[Tip's Mum]

I'll add my "thanks" for this really enlightening thread. If I could, I'd like to pose another question: As a greener than green novice, I find myself hesitating to use my voice too much during training out of sheer fear that what I say will be too loud/soft/gruff/early/late. I know this will improve with time (read as 'Calli'), but any suggestions on what's better in the beginning when you're still lacking confidence: being vocal or staying more quiet?

[Shoofly]

I'll add my "thanks" for this really enlightening thread. If I could, I'd like to pose another question: As a greener than green novice, I find myself hesitating to use my voice too much during training out of sheer fear that what I say will be too loud/soft/gruff/early/late. I know this will improve with time (read as 'Calli'), but any suggestions on what's better in the beginning when you're still lacking confidence: being vocal or staying more quiet?

 

I'd suggest speaking to your dog in the same tone you want him to work in for the most part - an even tone for a steady bit of easy work, calm and reassuring when he's doing something hard like pulling sheep off the fence and needs to know you believe he can do it calmly. For corrections, speak as you would to a kid - a reminder tone when you think the dog isn't going to behave but hasn't really committed to being bad "don't even look at the street" all the way up to a more firm and demanding "I SAID don't even THINK about running into the street" when he's decided to be bad and sometimes up to the come-to-jesus tone "LIE DOWN NOW I SAID" to break up a committed, already started effort to be bad. All of this toned up or down depending on your own dog and how he reacts to it. If you're distracting the dog, shut up. If he needs to know you're part of the picture, speak to him.

 

I'm not sure all of that makes sense. Mostly, I try to let my dogs know we're a team right from the start by using nice tones when they're doing right and less nice tones when they need to try something else. Those are the positive and negative reinforcement things, for me. But i also try to help the dogs with things that are difficult by using soothing tones, both before and during the action. If the soothing tones don't bring out the attitude i want, i'll bring out a reminder tone to let the dog know i want it to behave and not do what i can see it's thinking about doing wrong. It's all about manipulating the dog's attitude (if needed! it's not always) for me.

[Sue R]

Denise - It's the expense of the fencing and a shelter more than the sheep but I am working on figuring out how to do it and afford it. I am sorry that this is a hard time for those being hurt by the drought. We have the opposite problem - we had a very wet and muddy winter, and now we've had hay down for a week that has been rained on for the last five days (and no relief in sight for good haying weather). I wish we could trade a bit.

[Tip's Mum]

I'd suggest speaking to your dog in the same tone you want him to work in for the most part - an even tone for a steady bit of easy work, calm and reassuring when he's doing something hard like pulling sheep off the fence and needs to know you believe he can do it calmly. For corrections, speak as you would to a kid - a reminder tone when you think the dog isn't going to behave but hasn't really committed to being bad "don't even look at the street" all the way up to a more firm and demanding "I SAID don't even THINK about running into the street" when he's decided to be bad and sometimes up to the come-to-jesus tone "LIE DOWN NOW I SAID" to break up a committed, already started effort to be bad. All of this toned up or down depending on your own dog and how he reacts to it. If you're distracting the dog, shut up. If he needs to know you're part of the picture, speak to him.

 

I'm not sure all of that makes sense. Mostly, I try to let my dogs know we're a team right from the start by using nice tones when they're doing right and less nice tones when they need to try something else. Those are the positive and negative reinforcement things, for me. But i also try to help the dogs with things that are difficult by using soothing tones, both before and during the action. If the soothing tones don't bring out the attitude i want, i'll bring out a reminder tone to let the dog know i want it to behave and not do what i can see it's thinking about doing wrong. It's all about manipulating the dog's attitude (if needed! it's not always) for me.

 

Thanks for the easy-to-get-my-brain-around answer, Robin! That just makes so much sense... especially the "speak as you would to a kid" and "come-to-jesus tone" parts.

[Shoofly]

Thanks for the easy-to-get-my-brain-around answer, Robin! That just makes so much sense... especially the "speak as you would to a kid" and "come-to-jesus tone" parts.

 

There also an article about training voices on my blog --

http://shooflyfarm.blogspot.com/2008/04/hearing-voices.html

[Denise Wall]

Thanks again, to all, for your comments.