Dog Fight That Results In Stitches

[M.L.]

Happy New Year everyone! Mine has been off to a rough start. Last night Odin (Siberian Husky) and Kato (Siberian Husky/Rottie/? mix), both my husband's dogs, got into a fight that resulted in Odin needing stitches under his eye and on his eylid. He also has a scratch on the top of his head and a few puncture wounds on his chin. Seven hundred dollars later, he is stitched up and doing well, although not thrilled with the lampshade he has to wear. Kato is wound free.

 

These two dogs have been together since May of 2007, without any major issue. My husband has had Odin since a puppy and he is now six. He is a very well adjusted dog with no prior aggression or behavior problems - other than being super stubborn! Kato is from animal control, adopted in May before we got married and moved in together. He is a bit fearful of loud noises and certain movements. He knows when he does something wrong and seems to be waiting for punishment. For instance, he yanked the leash out of my hand one day and was playing "catch me if you can". When I did get his leash all I did was bend down and get it and he dropped to the ground yelping like I was killing him. I hadn't scolded him or touched him. He is just about two years old. I am firm with him, but I never scream and yell at him or make any physical contact with him as punishment. My husband will occassionally yell at him, which I'm sure does not help his behavior in any way.

 

The situation is as follows. It was around midnight. The two of us were watching a movie and the dogs were all laying in various places around the living room. All of a sudden, Odin and Kato were fighting. It took about 30 seconds to get them apart. I don't know who started it, or who got up first. There was no food around, no bones, no toys, no beds. We were on the other side of the room. I don't know what caused it, it happened so quickly. Thankfully, my three ran to me rather than joining in. My husband took Odin to the kitchen and I called Kato upstairs to put him in his crate. He didn't want to go in and when I reached for his collar he snapped at my hand. Looking back, it didn't seem very aggressive, but it was a snap at my hand all the same. He didn't make contact, it was just a warning. I got his leash and hooked it to his collar without issue and took him to his crate. Then we were off to the ER vet.

 

I don't know if Kato is attempting to establish dominance. The damage seems to indicate that this wasn't a one time thing. Now I'm worried.

 

I've already called the trainer that works with my dogs to get her opinion. She gave me some suggestions and will be meeting Kato soon.

 

Is this likely to happen again? Any advice is appreciated. We are keeping them separated now and I'm keeping a close eye on Kato when he is around my three dogs.

 

Thanks!

[Shetlander]

I'm not an expert and even experts can't predict the future, but I'd be extremely concerned about this situation. The severity of the bites and the fact that it seemed to happen out of the blue when eveyrone was relaxing are very concerning. Do you know how old Kato is? Can you look back and see anything that might be some tension between tKato and Odin that didn't seem important at the time? Any posturing? Mounting? Resource guarding? I'm willing to bet there were some signs that the dogs have issues but those signs may be subtle or not recognized for what they are.

 

How have the two dogs gotten along, other than "without any major issue"? Were there any minor issues? Did they seem to like each other, avoid each other, play together, squabble, dislike each other?

 

I guess I'm not being any help with all these questions. Sorry. You understand how serious this fight was and that's so important in doing what you can to fix things. Definitely keep Kato separated from Odin at least and carefully supervise him with the other dogs. You may want to discuss the behavior with your vet. Certain conditions such as thyroid problems can result in aggression.

 

I hope the behavioralist will be of help. Please let us know how it all goes.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

It's really hard to tell, since you don't know what started the fight. I could have been as simple as Kato being spooked by the other one, since you said he is a bit skittish. I'm not an expert on dog aggression, but I have seen a house hold with 3 male dogs(two intact) in a "crate and rotate" situation. Granted they were a pit, a rottie and a sharpei, all breeds with a bit of a shaded past, so that would be a worst case situation. I would be concerned about him and find out if you can what sort of past he's had, it doesn't sound like it was a good one by the way he is fearful of being punished. That could be a reason why he snapped at you, he knew he did something bad, but still worked up from the fight, may have led to a snap, or he was hurt, pulled muscle or bruise and you got too close. I agree that you should talk to the vet about an underlying medical issue and get that trainer into your house as soon as you can! Also, if they are both males and intact I might consider getting them both fixed. Do you know how old Kato is? Because if he is young it could very well be a dominance issue.

Not much help, I'm sure, but I hope everything works out for the better!

[M.L.]

A vet visit has been scheduled for Kato, as well as a visit with the trainer/behaviorist. Let me answer the questions, I don't mind at all. I want to pull out my hair worrying about this situation!

 

Do you know how old Kato is? He is around 2 years old. We have no background on him from Animal Control. He is neutered. So is Odin. My 3 dogs are spayed/neutered as well.

 

Can you look back and see anything that might be some tension between Kato and Odin that didn't seem important at the time? Any posturing? Mounting? Resource guarding? Odin appears to be the dominant male. He will posture, sometimes Kato lets Odin finish eating before he eats his food even though they have their own food bowls that are not located close to each other. Odin will not move out of the way for Kato. I have not seen any mounting. Odin will let out a low growl if Kato goes near his food or a toy or bone that he has. Kato always backs off and things have worked with that hierarchy until now. There was nothing the night of the fight. The dogs had all been laying down quietly for about 2 hours before the fight happened.

 

How have the two dogs gotten along, other than "without any major issue"? Were there any minor issues? Did they seem to like each other, avoid each other, play together, squabble, dislike each other? Kato and Odin appeared to like each other. They would sleep next to each other and play gently together. They had a small squabble once on the stairs. It was over in seconds with no injuries. Once it was over they sniffed each other and moved on. We have traveled on long drives with all 5 dogs and no problems. Little growls here and there involving bones or food. Nothing ever escalated.

 

I don't intervene in the everyday interactions between the dogs, such as Ginger warning Bailey to get out of her space when she is resting. Or Bailey not letting Willow take his bone. The only time I intervene is when I feel there could possibly be more than that quick interaction. If I hear Odin growling at Kato while he is eating I'll tell Kato to "leave it" or I'll call him to me. If all 5 dogs are running around playing and appear to be getting too wound up I'll have them all "settle" to avoid any escalation from playing to fighting. My dogs have never hurt each other, so this situation is new to me.

[still terry]

In my experience, once there is a dog fight, there will always be friction between the two dogs and the probability of another dog fight if they are not closely watched anytime they are together.

 

It will take constant vigilence when they are together. At the first start of a pose by either dog, be on them and let them know that you are the boss and if they know what's good for them, they dare not even think about acting out.

 

If left alone, yes, there will be another fight.

 

Terry

[still terry]

You can analyze all day as to why they fought. (Food agression, dominance issue, jealousy, etc.)

Even if or when you figure ou why, it isn't going to change anything.

 

You know have to deal with the results.

 

Terry

[Alaska]

Another non-expert here, but it seems like 2 years is about the age that dogs stop seeing themselves as juveniles and start working on finding their adult place in the pack hierarchy. You described several ways that Odin lords if over Kato, so maybe Kato has decided its time to see if he can do something about that?

 

Also, huskies are not known for getting along all that well in a pack (as opposed to, say, beagles).

 

Agree with Terry's last comment.

[Shetlander]

You can analyze all day as to why they fought. (Food agression, dominance issue, jealousy, etc.)

Even if or when you figure ou why, it isn't going to change anything.

 

You know have to deal with the results.

 

True, but why they fought can be an extremely important part of how to prevent further fights.

 

I think it's great to have a good behavioralist in who can offer both techniques and insights about what is going on. My obedience instructor really opened my eyes to the interactions between my two males. She helped me understand how I could lessen the tension by making it very clear to both of them that there was no room for advancement and neither was going to be dominant over the other. The Lhasa is relentless but otherwise easy to keep on top of because his posturing and bids for power are very obvious. Quinn, on the other hand, is much more sneaky and cunning. He's done things like corner Chili in a room while appearing to lounge in the hallway or give very hard looks without making a sound to keep Chili from going somewhere. Things I had been missing until the tension was becoming more open. Fortunately, my instructor was invaluable in helping me get both dogs in line. It takes ongoing monitoring and intevention as needed, though.

 

Another non-expert here, but it seems like 2 years is about the age that dogs stop seeing themselves as juveniles and start working on finding their adult place in the pack hierarchy.

 

As a matter of fact, Quinn was turning two when tension was becoming a real issue between him and Chili.

[MrSnappy]

I don't buy it. I had two bitches that beat the hell out of one another in the first week (oh the blood, and something like 35 puncture wounds between them) and lived together peacefully from then on in for a long time. My dogs sometimes squabble and a couple of times there have been punctures, but it's been different combinations of dogs every time. For the most part, they all get along just fine.

 

I DON'T agree that just dealing with the results is the only concern. There are triggers that set these things off, and if you can recognize them, and identify them, you can also circumvent them. If two of my dogs were laying in the same room and then suddenly got into it, the last thing I would assume is that nothing started it. The first thing I would assume is that I missed the posturing and eyeballing that was going on between them and would be on guard for it in the future.

 

I would, however, consider not leaving them alone together for now.

 

RDM

[M.L.]

Thanks all.

 

Like I said, at the time of the fight, all the dogs had been laying down in different areas of the room. None of them had stood up or even popped their head up in about 2 hours. It was about midnight that the fight occurred and they had all plopped down around 10:00 pm. Odin was near the bottom of the stairs and Kato was about 4 feet away from him. They were laying down and then up fighting without many seconds in between. They were in clear sight of the two of us on the couch. We were wide awake watching a 3 hour movie and we hadn't left the room. There may have been something we missed earlier in the day, but not before the fight. It went from two dogs laying down to two dogs fighting so quickly. It happened so fast I don't know who jumped up first.

[Dixie_Girl]

Jackson would give up a frizbee before he would be involved in any kind of conflict! YET, when he would be lying under his bench, in the dining room, while I am on the lap top, and Skip is lying by my side, I would hear him give a low growl. WHAT? I would yell at him, and look down at Skip and he is just lying there, all innocent, sometimes, not even facing Jackson! Then, after a few times of this, and knowing both dogs so well, I just looked down at Skip, without saying anything first, and there he was, giving Jackson a "look"! And that's all it took! They read and exhibit such subtle body language it is sometimes very hard for us to see something amiss! Good luck! Hope y'all get it figured out!

[kelpiegirl]

Having just gone through this.... My youngest dog (bitch) fought with, and caused injuries to my eldest Kelpie- I see now what is going on. Lucy believes she is just top stuff, and acts it around Nikke. Nikke does her best to avoid her- but this only emboldens Lucy- who's tail is up, and she looks like the cock of the walk around her. So, what I am doing, and this has been working well, is when Lucy's tail goes up, I chastise Lucy- even if she looks at her- same thing. She needs to know that I am in charge and can read her mind. Now, I also know when it is most likely to happen, and that is when we first get home- for some reason. Once there is serious injury, you just pretty much need to be on guard, and look for signs of increased tension- tails up, tails between legs- staring, everting eyes- anything. What you want is your pack being middle of the road at all times. I feel very badly, because before this injury, I thought Nikke had started it- but I now know that it was Lucy. It is pretty much all my fault- as I let Lucy climb the ladder un-encumbered.

 

So, for your dogs, you just need to be aware of body language, and always keep tabs on them. Even something like a whimper from one dog, or slipping on something can cause a fight. Things will probably calm down but for now, until the injured dog is well healed, be super vigilant, because he is weaker, and that can just set things up for a fight. I know when we got home last night after the surgery, Lucy started with the tail up, but then, I got in her face, and in a minute, her tail was down, and she knew to leave it.

[vickim]

My Whisper and my stepson's Pit Bull hate each other--we live in the same house and never let the two dogs see each other. This is hugely inconvenient, but completely necessary. Both dogs get along well with other dogs (unless they come across another alpha female-the story of how both dogs came to live in the sane house is a long one and not meant for a public forum. If you really want to know, PM me). The step son lives in fear that someone is going to take his dog away and destroy it because it is a Pit. But I digress.

 

In short, if you can't resolve the reason why the dogs fight, you may have to resort to a similar situation.

[mbc1963]

My dog is intensely reactive to other dogs - but 95% of the time he meets fine. However, that last 5% taught me a lot in the first few months I had Buddy! I've learned to watch very closely for the eye contact that frequently makes Buddy tense up and go on the defensive. It's often just a look - The Look. (Hard eyes... dead-on stare... and you can almost hear the dogs thinking, "You starting with ME!?") I suspect that's what might have happened between your two dogs. I agree that dealing with the consequences is important, but you can also avoid a lot of trouble if you learn to read what your dogs are non-verbally saying to each other. (My dog also reacts strongly to any near-attempt at humping, even the head-over-the-back thing that happens right before a hump.)

 

I often see other people's dogs posture or give The Look to Buddy, and the owners will be saying, "Oh, he's so friendly." I met two schnauzers a couple weeks ago, and the owner seemed completely unconcerned about the second one, who froze in the middle of the narrow trail, stood stock-still, and stared Buddy hard in the eyes. Buddy wasn't going to even TRY walking around that dog. He stopped and respectfully postured, "You're the MAN!" Hell, the dog's look was scaring ME! Meanwhile, the woman walked on oblivious that her dog was, for all intents and purposes, playing gangsta in the woods.

 

I've seen dogs fight it out and then become lovely friends, and I've seen dogs whose fighting progressed to severe. (One friend took several deep bites to the arm the night before his wedding, trying to break up his akita and his hound mix.) For my own dog, I know that I have to be careful around dogs he's fought previously... because I think he keeps the tension in the back of his mind, though they seem to go about peacefully afterwards.

 

I do worry about my own dog when he's revved up from a confrontation, because I think they can get to worked up that they're snapping at anything. I don't think the intention is to harm a human, but I think the "fight" reflex gets going and the dog is trying to protect himself from anything.

 

Good luck in a tough situation! I hope it works out as normal pack-climbing behavior, and the dogs sort the dynamic out.

 

Mary

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

The bite towards you is something that may or may not be significant, and is actually my greatest concern here. I'll give a pass to a dog that was involved in an extensive fight because fight/flight related adrenaline is very powerful. But in spite of the damage it's hard to tell how intense this fight actually was. It's something to be aware of, especially considering this dog's nervous behavior.

 

You do need to have someone well-versed in canine behavior come and evaluate the situation in person. With three other household dogs, one dog that is somewhat insecurely dominant (really dominant dogs don't need to posture and fight), and the other that seems to be a social climber, it's a complex situation.

[Wendy V]

I agree with Rebecca. I would be worried about the hand-snap as well. Sounds like Kato is of unstable temperment and very manipulative, giving his actions the moment you regained control of him (snapped the leash on) when he got away from you that time. I also, agree with Terry, that the probability of another fight is great, and so is the possiblility of great harm (see RIP Meg in memorium section).

 

The situation needs to be managed wisely, both from Kato's relationship with Odin AND with his relationship with the people of the house. I wish luck in your search for an answer. Please keep us posted on the progress of this situation.

[painted_ponies]

I know how you feel. I once raised a litter of four GSD/wolf hybrid males from the time they were rescued at three months of age until all found homes. Which, as you might imagine, took a while. They were about two years old by that time.

 

I well remember sitting around in the living room, watching TV or whatever, when suddenly four recumbent canines would become one whirling mass of fur and fangs, apropos of nothing as far as I could ever tell. If there was a secret signal, I never failed to miss it. I'd have guests diving behind couches, drinks and ashtrays flying everywhere - speaking of adrenaline rushes, I know exactly how one feels. I probably bit somebody a time or two myself.

 

It's boy-posturing. They're at that age, bless their hearts. Or Kato is, rather, and Odin is trying to keep his status. In your place, I'd just try to keep everybody safe - IOW, don't leave them unsupervised together, break up fights before they get out of hand - and figure this too shall pass.

 

Oh, and stock up on Resolve carpet cleaner. Takes out blood better than anything else.

[Shetlander]

It's boy-posturing. They're at that age, bless their hearts. Or Kato is, rather, and Odin is trying to keep his status.

 

I consider the kind of biting Kato did more than posturing. I have extremely low tolerance for aggression in my house, among my dogs, under my care/leadership.

[Kyrasmom]

I would be very inclined to believe that it is age related, between 2 and 3 is when they decide it's time to step it up a notch. I have nine dogs that vary in ages between 14 and 1 and without fail, the squabbles have been as they approached the two year mark. Dogs communicate with each other in manners that we aren't always able to understand or even anticipate, sometimes Gracie, my female BC, just looks in the general direction of a dog and that dog will either move....or stand up for himself. She's a girl so generally they move.

 

Your two boys are both at an age where they're going to decide who is top dog (so to speak even though I don't much like that term). A good behaviorist will be able to work with you to manage the situation correctly without actually escalating it inadvertantly. The good news is that just because they had a big fight, it doesn't mean they'll do it again or that it will be a forever thing. I had two dogs that couldn't even be in the same room without a squabble and now are perfectly fine. The two females got into it a few times and now happily co-exist and manage the boys together.

 

As much as we manage it, and many times successfully, there will always be a pecking order within a dog pack and there's very little that we can do about it. And the pecking order can also be fluid, in that it changes based on circumstances.

 

Now you're aware that something is going on between them and you've got the upper hand, especially if you enlist the help of a professional. You can manage their time together and how you interact with them.

 

As for the snap, as someone who has zero tolerance for any kind of human aggression, I would put it in the back of my mind as being in the midst of an adrenaline rush from the fight but keep a very keen eye on any kind of aptitude for dominance toward you and take steps to correct it. Again, the behaviorist can work on that with you.

 

When you have a pack, there will be fights but it doesn't necessarily mean that your dogs hate each other or can never be with each other again, it's just important to understand the dynamics behind them as much as possible and try to not get too emotionally upset...easier said than done!

 

Maria

[M.L.]

Liz, I completely agree with you. Here is a picture of Odin. As you can see the damage was pretty bad. He is lucky his eye wasn't damaged. You can't see the punctures under his chin in the photo.

 

 

I can tolerate a few squabbles here and there, but not this kind of damage.

[nancy in AZ]

I find this interesting because in the last several months I've noticed a change in dynamic between Minnie and Kit when I come back from walking Minnie by herself. It only happens when we come in the front door, not the door from the garage. As soon as we walk in the door, Kit's tail goes up and she rushes up to Min growling. Usually there's nothing more, she sniffs, Minnie demures and that's the end of it. But since I noticed this pattern, now I walk into Kit and block her approach the moment I walk through the door. She tries to go around me to sniff at Min but I just keep blocking her until Minnie is well into the house and the moment has diffused. I recall reading somewhere (here perhaps) that doorways are often the site of conflict within the pack.

[BustopherJones]

Please note that what I am about to say is simply my own experience, and should NOT be construed as advice.

 

Prior to getting Annie, we had Tiffany, an English Springer Spaniel and Missy, our current "mutt" (BC-Belgian Sheepdog mix). Tiffany was several years older than Missy. Neither dog had a mean bone in either of their bodies. One day, Missy was trying to play with Tiffany, as she used to love to do, while Tiffany was trying to rest; it was like watching a puppy trying to play with its mother. For no apparent reason, Tiffany turned and snapped at the younger dog, catching her on the snout and drawing blood. There was never a recurrence, and to this day we still are not sure about why it happened; after that one incident, the two continued to play and get along well.

 

Now comes the deja vue. After Tiffany passed away (cancer), we got Annie, the BC. Missy was a little more than 10 at the time. Again, neither dog has a mean bone in either of their bodies. Like Missy used to do with Tiffany, Annie would bedevil Missy into playing with her, and the two would often romp around the house chasing each other. One day, Missy was trying to rest, and Annie was trying to play. Missy turned and snapped at her, catching her under the eye and causing a cut that required a vet visit and a couple of stitches. Again, there has never been a recurrence; despite Missy's terminal condition, the two still play together, often engaging in a tug-of-war over a toy.

 

As I said, this is my experience, and may not be related to your issue. But in both cases from my experience, it just seemed that the older dog simply did not want to play at that partciular point in time, and was putting the younger dog in its place. This certainly had nothing to do with male machismo or boy-posturing, as all of the dogs involved were females. Perhaps this is an issue to discuss with your vet; but I wouldn't panic over the incident, as something that you did not observe may have occurred to trigger it.

[Kyrasmom]

I recall reading somewhere (here perhaps) that doorways are often the site of conflict within the pack.

 

It's doorways because it's the space of a greeting and greetings are very important within a pack...who gets to say Hi first and how...etc etc. You seem to handle it correctly in not giving any space to the dog wanting the most attention and attempting to shoo away the other dog. We try really hard to only greet the dogs when we decide it's time to...well except for Wenty who is still learning and literally flies into our arms with joy. But even him (who I have a hard time saying no to), when I see him flying towards me, I'll turn and pretend to be interested in something else thus disappointing his very enthusiastic greeting until he least expects it.

 

And of course sometimes I give in, and if he's out alone, I'll just call him as if it's all my idea just because he's adorable and I can't resist!

 

Maria

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Bustopher, that's an excellent point and I do appreciate it, so don't take my contrariness wrong here.

 

What was described was a real knock down drag out. M.L. metioned it taking thirty seconds after the initial reaction, to seperate them. If that's an accurate perception of time, that's forever. Most yap-snarl-bite-slam posturing type incidents last about five to ten seconds, while a simple correction such as you describe is less than a second in length normally.

 

Fifteen seconds is the average length of a Superbowl commercial. It's also long enough for a dog to rip flesh from bone. Thirty seconds is twice that, long enough to microwave a frozen burrito and long enough for really serious damage to occur, both physically and mentally.

[BustopherJones]

Bustopher, that's an excellent point and I do appreciate it, so don't take my contrariness wrong here.

As we referees like to say, "no blood, no foul".