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Dog Fight That Results In Stitches


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What was described was a real knock down drag out. M.L. metioned it taking thirty seconds after the initial reaction, to seperate them. If that's an accurate perception of time, that's forever.

 

I think I'm pretty accurate with the the time it took to get them apart. It could have been a bit less, but not much. We yelled. We kicked. We threw something. They kept going. I remember looking back to make sure my dogs were staying away and seeing them hiding behind the table. It sounded really nasty and I wasn't going to stick my hand in to get them apart. At some point I saw the cut under Odin's eye gaping open and blood pouring. I said something like, "OMG, Odin's eye has a huge gash." At that point my husband finally did take a chance and grabbed Odin's collar. The dogs separated and Kato ran up the stairs. It certainly did feel like forever.

 

Hubby took Odin to the kitchen. Kato came back downstairs. That's when I called Kato upstairs again and he stopped in the hall. I went to reach for his collar and he snapped at me. I then got his leash and walked him to his crate.

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That's when I called Kato upstairs again and he stopped in the hall. I went to reach for his collar and he snapped at me. I then got his leash and walked him to his crate.

 

That part worries me- if the dog was in the throes of a fight- and you go your hand there- that could have been a mistake. Him being away from the action, and then snapping, is a different story. He needs some nlif, and you should also speak with a qualified behaviourist.

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I definately agree that it's an age thing, the pit and rottie i mentioned last night started getting into it after the pit turned two. The rottie was always the alfa male until 150lb baccon decided it was his turn. eventualy the pit had to be put down, but they had a really hard time convincing the vet to do it because he was a two year old boy comming into his own. again, clearly a worst case scenerio, one of my friends was actually bitten in the last fight and it took him almost 10 minutes to break them apart, so, i would keep a close eye on them for sure. The only question I have is; Did the behaviorist come into your home? With a pack of 5 dogs in your house, it might not be a bad idea, just so they can check out the whole group dynamic?!

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That part worries me- if the dog was in the throes of a fight- and you go your hand there- that could have been a mistake. Him being away from the action, and then snapping, is a different story. He needs some nlif, and you should also speak with a qualified behaviourist.

 

I understand people's concerns over this, but the dogs are still basically being run on adrenaline and the chemical changes that have taken place in their brains. With some dogs it takes awhile for them to come down off of the adrenaline rush. During this period they will react abnormally to things and handling that they are fine with otherwise. It also takes quite a few days for the dog's chemical changes to normalize as well, and people have a tendency to relax after the intial fight, thinking that it is all over, but it can take up to a couple of weeks for the brain to normalize and this is the critical time to watch the dogs.

 

If I get stuck in the midst of a dog scuffle like this one, I am always careful about handling the dogs immediately afterwards, even with dogs that I have known all my life. I have a tendency to keep hands off, so I resort to a slip lead to get control of a dog if need be. I prefer not to handle them to even clip a leash onto them. As well, usually at that point in time I don't know what injuries the dog may have sustained and the anticipation of pain upon a person accidently touching a wound can trigger a dog to react negatively to handling at that time.

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I think I'm pretty accurate with the the time it took to get them apart. It could have been a bit less, but not much. We yelled. We kicked. We threw something. They kept going. I remember looking back to make sure my dogs were staying away and seeing them hiding behind the table. It sounded really nasty and I wasn't going to stick my hand in to get them apart. At some point I saw the cut under Odin's eye gaping open and blood pouring. I said something like, "OMG, Odin's eye has a huge gash." At that point my husband finally did take a chance and grabbed Odin's collar. The dogs separated and Kato ran up the stairs. It certainly did feel like forever.

 

Hubby took Odin to the kitchen. Kato came back downstairs. That's when I called Kato upstairs again and he stopped in the hall. I went to reach for his collar and he snapped at me. I then got his leash and walked him to his crate.

 

I understand that dog fights are no fun. I hate breaking them up, but have done quite a bit of it since I used to handle and train chows and there was the wolf hybrid litter. So I'd like to offer my perspective on your description of what happened.

 

1. Try not to yell or throw things. I know you feel like it, and it's a scary situation. But it's important to remain calm so you don't escalate the aggression. Remember that face wounds bleed like crazy, and a little blood mixed with saliva looks like lots of blood. So don't let the sight of blood pouring shake your nerve. :rolleyes: It's almost never as bad as it looks.

 

2. One person was able to separate the combatants. This is a very good sign. Really determined aggressive dogs would've required the both of you to pull them apart. But Kato stopped and ran away once your husband appeared beside Odin. That's good.

 

3. You're right, you shouldn't stick your hand into a dog fight. If you need to intervene physically, the safest way is for each of you to come up behind a dog and grasp him firmly just behind the head with both hands. Husky mixes should have nice thick fur there to help you get a good grip. I've always suspected this is why doG gave chows those great huge ruffs. Get your fingers into the mane so you can control the direction the head goes. This is important so they can't bite you in the leg or some other part of your person. Remember, they're more upset than you are and may bite you without realizing they have hold of a human.

Warning to make this work, you will have to be strong enough and committed enough to control the head and not let go. If you doubt your ability to do this, don't do it. It will get you bit.

 

4. I wouldn't worry overmuch about Kato snapping. He was still upset, you were still upset, and you reached for his head. He didn't make contact, he just let you know he wasn't comfortable with you reaching for him.

 

5. Despite being upset, Kato came when you called him. This is also a good sign.

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Don't grab collars to break up a fight if you are devoted to all ten of your fingers. Grab tails or hind legs. If your dog bites you accidentally while fighting another dog then you and he are in a real pickle.

 

Along with some of the other posters, I take bites to humans to be in a whole different class of problem to dog-on-dog aggression, but I would be slow to consider a dog in the midst of a dogfight or immediately after to be exhibiting aggression to you if it snaps or bites in that situation. They're so pumped up, they don't know what you are or what they are biting. But that will be small comfort to you if people start calling you Lefty after your sutures come out.

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Odin has been calm, other than trying to get the lampshade off his head.

 

Kato is still visibly shaken. When he goes to his crate he begins salivating and shaking. He has been whining almost nonstop since this happened, when he is in his crate and while he is out. We had issues again today when I went to call him to his crate. He went upstairs but stopped in the hall. I called him to his crate (he usually has no problem and goes right to it) and he barked at me. I asked him to sit. He did. I approached him and he stood up. I asked him to sit again. He did. When I reached to pet him (I reached low - not over his head) he snapped at my hand again. This time he did make contact, but it didn't hurt. As soon as he did it he flopped on the ground, went almost belly up and started shaking. I got up and walked away towards the crate. I called him again and he ran into his crate - shaking, salivating and whining.

 

Kato is avoiding Odin. He will not go by him if he is laying somewhere. Kato has not made any aggressive moves towards Odin, and Odin has not made any toward him. Odin will give a low growl if the dogs get too close to his face. They back off immediately. I haven't intervened because this seems normal for a dog with a beat up face and a strange object on his head.

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When is the behavioralist coming over? And has Kato been looked over by the vet? This is a pretty extreme reaction to be going on for so long after the fight. I would wonder if there is some wound you might be missing. I once had two dogs get into a fight and the one who was acting most furious seemed fine other than some dog slobber. It wasn't until several hours later that I found a pool of blood in her ear. Fortunately, the damage was only superficial, but I'm sure it hurt like crazy at the time. But unless Kato is getting an infection or something, I don't see why he'd still be acting so disturbed. :rolleyes:

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Wow... that's really tough! I have no expertise at all in behavior, but it sounds as though Kato is still reacting psychologically to what happened - sounds like he scared himself, or Odin scared him. I've seen my dog regress if he gets into it with another dog - his overall reactivity will increase again for a few days, until he seems to settle back to his usual normal self.

 

The only thing I can think is that maybe the trigger that set Kato off is still worrying him? If it was a quiet look or growl, Kato may be worried that Odin is just waiting to start up again.

 

And... backup... are you sure they're both feeling well physically? My dog did get more aggressive when he had Lyme disease but hadn't yet started limping to let me know.

 

Good luck!

 

Mary

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I would suggest a vet check for Kato. It's a little suspicious that his behavior seems to have changed so quickly and is so uncharacteristic of his previous behavior. I've dealt with plenty of dog fights, too, but the dogs seem to get over being upset pretty quickly. If he's still acting strange, I'd wonder if there wasn't something more going on. If he checks out medically, then I'd be looking for a good behaviorist to evaluate him and help you with a training program. The fact that he is now snapping (again) at you a day later would be a cause for concern, IMO.

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We have a vet visit scheduled for the 8th at Central Animal Hospital here in Tucson. It was the earliest I could get Kato in with my vet. We will also be meeting with the behaviorist next week. The trainer that works with the behaviorist/trainer we are going to see has stayed with all 5 dogs at my house one weekend. I will also speak with her because she may have picked up on things between the dogs that I am missing.

 

I checked Kato over thoroughly and I didn't find anything. He has short hair, not the super thick fluffy husky hair, so it is easy to see his skin. He does have a tiny scratch on his foot, but I remember seeing it there before the fight when I clipped his nails.

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That's a very odd reaction after so much time has elapsed, I'll look forward to hearing what your vet and behaviorist have to say. I wonder if he's reacting to the collar on Odin...it can be scary...but not usually that scary.

 

After the worst fight I've seen with my group the longest any dog held onto anxiety (and this was the dog who lost the fight) was through the night - the fight was after nightfall. I kept him crated and by morning they were all back to playing. I've always admired how they don't hold grudges...lol!

 

I would suggest keeping him as quiet as possible and interacting minimally with him until you get some professional back up. By minimal I mean not making any fuss over him...not as in avoiding interacting with him because of fear.

 

Maria

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I'm concerned about an issue with his neck - which would help explain the snapping when you go for his collar, and when you call him, AND when he goes to his crate, AND that he is in pain and shaking. I might get him to an emergency vet. I know it costs $$ but it would be good to get this checked out asap. Try calling other vets around too.

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You may have already done this. Put a leash on Kato to drag (clip the loop handle open so he doesn't hang it on anything). As Maria already said, keep your interactions very quiet and minimal. I'm a little creeped out at Kato's reaction too.

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I have taken him outside for a walk and to potty on leash quite a few times since the fight. He doesn't try to snap at me when I'm putting the leash on to go outside. He doesn't shake and act scared. It is just when going into the crate.

 

I checked him thoroughly and he didn't snap at me when I was near his neck, head or mouth. I sat and pet him quite a few times near the head, neck and back and he didn't react oddly.

 

The whining seems to be for attention, not due to pain. He stops when he is near me and lays down at my feet with my dogs. If I get up and go to the other room or into the bathroom he starts whining again. If I put him in the crate he whines. At night he whines for a while when he goes to his crate and eventually stops. My neighbors must love me!

 

He doesn't seem to want to go near Odin or my husband. Before the fight you could usually find Kato and Odin next to my husband and my three next to me. If I'm upstairs, my three are with me and his two are downstairs with him. Now Kato wants to be near me. He may sense that my husband is angry with him and really doesn't want to be around him right now, so he is sticking with me.

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I concur that 2 years is a tough age for my guy. As soon as he hit 2 my formerly submissive little boy turned into a posturing wanna-be dominant. He's gotten to know my exact tolerance level for his posturing, though. I'm curious to see where he ends up once he's settled into himself more because other than the posturing he does definately look out for dogs that have greeted him as a dominant dog. He always looks to see if I'm looking before he gets into any major posturing.

 

Of course having a dog that does a lot of posturing means that he will sometimes tick off another dog that wants the "top dog" spot and I always make sure that I step up with body language that lets the other dog know that *I* am top dog unless the other dog's owner does it first. Interestingly enough, the only dogs that I can remember having an issue with me taking top dog status have been huskies- not every husky and certainly not many of them- but the two or three that have been difficult were huskies. One of the benefits to having done that is that Stormy will get behind me any time he feels overwhelmed or threatened by another dog rather than trying to correct them himself.

 

I hope that you find that the problem with your guys is simply a coming of age event, but due to the seriousness of the attack I'm thinking it's probably not.

 

Also, I second (or third or fourth) grabbing the two dogs' back legs and pulling them apart rather than sticking a hand in the middle of it.

 

Lori

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