Problems w/ My BC

[Guest SweetJordan]

I’m having problems w/ My BC and I’m looking for advice/suggestions.

 

First, a little background info. Riley came to me from a border collie rescue at the age of 15 months. She came from a family who spent so little time on her that she didn’t have a name, knew no obedience(took me little to no effort to teach her) and was pretty much kept in a crate for her first 12 months. I don’t know what kind of evaluation the rescue did w/ her. I’m not sure if they even did one to tell you the truth. She was in rescue about 14 days and many of the things I was told about her weren’t true. In fact I was told that she had no issues which I was surprised to hear. Her foster had so much experience being a foster(about 25 yrs) that as much as I hate to say it I’m inclined to think that I was lied to. For example her foster knew that I was looking for a performance dog, and needed a dog that would get a long w/ strange dogs. As it turns out she has fear aggression issues w/ strange dogs, though she loves to play w/ dogs she knows.

 

Anyway, Riley will be playing or in her mind working. Something will scare her and she will crouch and completely shut down. Then she pees out of fear(though this doesn't always happen). And she scares for what appears to be no reason though she doesn’t think so. For example, last week I was playing Frisbee w/ her. My goofball lab was standing in the yard to the left. So smarty pants Riley was looking for me to throw it to the middle or right only. So when she ran off and my labby moved some I threw the Frisbee to the left. Of course Riley lost it, something she only does when she tries to anticipate where I’m throwing it. Anyway, so I said, “Riley you can’t try to predict where I’m throwing it or you’re not going to be able to find it and catch it.” Of course we we’re just having fun so my tone of voice was happy to neutral. Yet as soon as I opened my mouth she practically crawled to the door. So then I said in a very happy voice, “come on Riley get you’re Frisbee let’s play,” and she peed by the door. She completely shut-down and although I got her to come by me she was still scared. She gave me some kisses and I picked her up and put her inside (so she wouldn’t step in her pee on the patio. Then she came in and climbed on the couch (where she is allowed to be). I didn’t say anything. She piddled on a blanket on the couch and I put her in her crate. Not because I was mad at her, which I wasn’t. But when she shuts down if I put her in her crate for some alone time and let her out a little while later she is fine and back to her self. She shuts down often enough that it will cause her to lose some of her exercise time and this is starting to happen more and more. In fact it's becoming a daily occurance.

 

She is a very soft and timid girl. She scares very easily. Noises, voices, and objects she hasn’t seen before all can cause her to shut-down and provoke an incident like the one above and often times I don't even know why she got scared. Even when she’s eating if it’s not completely quiet or near to she gets scared and runs off. At Thanksgiving I thought all the company was going to scare her, but she was very social. In fact she saw it as an opportunity to have more people to play w/ and everyone was happy to oblige so go figure.

Anyway, we don’t yell at her, and of course we aren’t mean to her in any way ever. In fact I’m extra gentle in the way that I deal w/ her knowing how she is. But of course I don’t ever comfort her when she’s scared, because I know that only makes it worse.

Her daily activities include Frisbee, ball playing, biking, and playing w/ my mom’s dog whom she loves. She has also begun herding through right now she is participating more or less for fun as I don’t have the time to get her out to lessons as much as she would need to in order to trial. Nothing ever scares her at the farm; in fact she’s a completely different dog. She is a very sweet dog to all people big and little. I’m a bit concerned about her behavior or as I call it emotional issues. Just as soon as I feel she has made some progress she reverts back or gets worse. She’s been here for about eight months now.

I've tried to get advice/suggestions from the rescue she came from, but they no longer respond to me. She has had some professional help to modify some of her behaviors in the way of one-on-one work. She improved some then got worse.

[MaggieDog]

Some dogs are VERY sensitive to body language and breathing - Maggie gets all appeasing if I breath a certain way or if I move a certain way and I've had her for almost 8 years now. It may just be that something you are doing is reminding her of a precursor of abuse/yelling from her past.

[sweet_ceana]

Have you seen a behavioralist about her anxiety? If you search anxiety on the boards there is a very interesting thread titled something like "thunderphobic dog." There are a lot of stories that many people on these boards have expereinced and the ways they have found help for their dogs.

[Michelle K]

I'm sorry to hear of all of the problems that you're having. I don't know the first thing about the foster mom, but I can speak from personal experience with fosters. I have seen dogs act normal at my house and even out in public only to shut down in a new home. Dogs act differently in different environments, so it doesn't mean that the foster mom lied to you. Like Maggiedog said, she could be reminded of something from her past. Now you said that you wanted a performance dog. Did you meet her prior to adopting? How was her personality and temperament then? You do need to remember that this dog has had a rough start in life. She could have adjusted to her foster home nicely, but then she was uprooted again and placed in your home. It's going to take her time to come around, from what I'm reading. Nykie had the submissive urination and she's mostly outgrown it now. If she doesn't work out the way you want her to, you're going to have to make the decision of whether you love her for her and are going to help her work through her issues or if you're going to send her back. I have a fantastic Sheltie here that didn't turn out the way I'd hoped, but I just found something else to do with him and he's not going anywhere. I wish you the very best of luck!

[herdcentral]

Hi, one of my ACDS also has fear issues. I belong to a yahoo group that deals specifically with these issues, and the advice and support has been great. There are a lot of Border collies and shelties and several would be agiltiy dogs on that site as well.

 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s/

[SoloRiver]

I would consult with a vet behaviorist if I were you.

[Guest SweetJordan]

I'm sorry to hear of all of the problems that you're having. I don't know the first thing about the foster mom, but I can speak from personal experience with fosters. I have seen dogs act normal at my house and even out in public only to shut down in a new home. Dogs act differently in different environments, so it doesn't mean that the foster mom lied to you. Like Maggiedog said, she could be reminded of something from her past. Now you said that you wanted a performance dog. Did you meet her prior to adopting? How was her personality and temperament then? You do need to remember that this dog has had a rough start in life. She could have adjusted to her foster home nicely, but then she was uprooted again and placed in your home. It's going to take her time to come around, from what I'm reading. Nykie had the submissive urination and she's mostly outgrown it now. If she doesn't work out the way you want her to, you're going to have to make the decision of whether you love her for her and are going to help her work through her issues or if you're going to send her back. I have a fantastic Sheltie here that didn't turn out the way I'd hoped, but I just found something else to do with him and he's not going anywhere. I wish you the very best of luck!

I did meet her prior to adopting her, and I didn't see these behaviors. In addition her foster had the other dogs in crates so I didn't see much interaction there, but that really doesn't matter because it's just strange dogs that she fears. In other words I would have had to have seen her behavior when she first entered the house. Though if she meets a dog who bows to her right away then she forms an instant friendship.

Due to the foster's experience and what a person from another rescue had to say about her I think I trusted her more than I should have. Because initally I wanted to foster to see how the dog would work out prior to adopting. I spent probably about an hour with her which turned out not to be enough time.

Anyway, yes it hasn't worked out the way I saw it working out. But that doesn't mean I love her any less. I'm just frustrated w/ the rescue(though most of that is all water under the bridge) and I want to help Riley so she doesn't have to live in fear all the time. One thing that she has gotten over and seems to be completely over is her fear that we might hit her. She has picked up on the fact that she will never be hit. And I'm not going to take her back. I could never take my Riley back. I think she has been through enough. Somewhere between her org. family and the rescue she was in another home for about a month and who knows what those people did to her. She has weird scars on her chest, not sure where those came from. She's a very loving dog and aside from her fears of strange dogs is never aggressive just the opposite really. She even adores very young children and is really gentle. She even loves the vet up. I thought puppy raising taught me patience, but this has even more so. And in a kind of odd way I think she was meant to be loved by my family.

I think at this point she could trial because once she lays her eyes on sheep the rest of the world tends to melt away. It just the distance I have to travel to get her to the farm multiple times a week, plus it's rather expensive. But because she loves it so much and I enjoy bringing her out I take her as much as I can.

I can wait for another performance dog. It's a shame though because Riley could really be a frisbee champ. She's a natural, but I'll be able to add to the pack later on.

[WyoBC]

I also went through this with my little Black Jack. For the first four months or so I had him he was very scared and sensitive about certen movments and stuff. When I first got him he didn't know how to play so when I was trying to get him to play he would think I was throwing stuff at him, not throwing it FOR him. After I gained his trust he started to relize I wasn't trying to hurt him, and actually started to come to me for safety.

 

I would make sure that when she gets scared just act like nothing happened and either start playing again (even if it's by yourself) or go and do something else like nothing is wrong. Time will help as she will get more used to you and how you do things. But there will always be things that will trigger her fear. Black Jack isn't anything like he was when I first got him, but he still has things that will scare him. Like toes

 

You'll just have to learn what scares her and try not to do them. If it's certen words, movements, and so on. It's tough but she'll get better. If you need more help I can go into more detail for you.

[WyoBC]

Fear is the hardest thing to work through with a dog. Believe me, I know. There were times when I thought "What am I doing?" and there were times when I didn't think he would come around. But he did. It just takes lots of time, training, and love. But what ever you do don't scoop her up and love on her when she gets scared. It'll just make it worse. Like I said before, say something like "it's ok, come on lets go!" and go on about your business.

 

It sounds like she went through h*** before you guys came along. So she's just learning that you guys are ok, and aren't going to hurt her.

[Guest SweetJordan]

Fear is the hardest thing to work through with a dog. Believe me, I know. There were times when I thought "What am I doing?" and there were times when I didn't think he would come around. But he did. It just takes lots of time, training, and love. But what ever you do don't scoop her up and love on her when she gets scared. It'll just make it worse. Like I said before, say something like "it's ok, come on lets go!" and go on about your business.

 

It sounds like she went through h*** before you guys came along. So she's just learning that you guys are ok, and aren't going to hurt her.

What amazes me is how much she likes people despite how she was treated in the past.

No, I don't ever love on her when she gets scared, I do ignore the behavior as you suggested. She gets plenty of love when she isn't scared. Hard not to love on her when she climbs in to your lap and licks you to death. She also does the smack w/ her paw for attention.

 

How old was Black Jack when you adopted him?

 

 

Umm... I haven't done the behavioralist. Perhaps I should look into that.

[Michelle K]

I did meet her prior to adopting her, and I didn't see these behaviors. In addition her foster had the other dogs in crates so I didn't see much interaction there, but that really doesn't matter because it's just strange dogs that she fears. In other words I would have had to have seen her behavior when she first entered the house. Though if she meets a dog who bows to her right away then she forms an instant friendship.

Due to the foster's experience and what a person from another rescue had to say about her I think I trusted her more than I should have. Because initally I wanted to foster to see how the dog would work out prior to adopting. I spent probably about an hour with her which turned out not to be enough time.

Anyway, yes it hasn't worked out the way I saw it working out. But that doesn't mean I love her any less. I'm just frustrated w/ the rescue(though most of that is all water under the bridge) and I want to help Riley so she doesn't have to live in fear all the time. One thing that she has gotten over and seems to be completely over is her fear that we might hit her. She has picked up on the fact that she will never be hit. And I'm not going to take her back. I could never take my Riley back. I think she has been through enough. Somewhere between her org. family and the rescue she was in another home for about a month and who knows what those people did to her. She has weird scars on her chest, not sure where those came from. She's a very loving dog and aside from her fears of strange dogs is never aggressive just the opposite really. She even adores very young children and is really gentle. She even loves the vet up. I thought puppy raising taught me patience, but this has even more so. And in a kind of odd way I think she was meant to be loved by my family.

I think at this point she could trial because once she lays her eyes on sheep the rest of the world tends to melt away. It just the distance I have to travel to get her to the farm multiple times a week, plus it's rather expensive. But because she loves it so much and I enjoy bringing her out I take her as much as I can.

I can wait for another performance dog. It's a shame though because Riley could really be a frisbee champ. She's a natural, but I'll be able to add to the pack later on.

 

I understand completely. I was just trying to make sure I understood the full picture. I'm glad that she's in a home that loves her and wants to help her. I know exactly what you mean about having a natural, but not being able to perform. Presley, one of our Shelties, would be absolutely fantastic at agility. She's quick, makes quick tight turns, and has the focus, but she has a major fear streak. The car is the worst. She's almost 2yrs old and I still can't get her over the car sickness for anything. I have tried everything recommended by the vet and trainers, but nothing works, so she's just a cuddly lovebug that unfortunately stays home most of the time. She shuts down the minute we get in the car. I've tried her favorite treats with the car not running, but the car itself scares her so much that she won't even look at anything. She instantly starts shaking and drooling. One thing I was thinking about, though. If you find that she can trial with sheep, she very well may perform in other activities later, because that may build her confidence. After 10+yrs of rescue, it still breaks my heart to see dogs with fear issues. I only came across one that I couldn't help, but her situation was totally different. I do wish you the very best of luck with her and I'm looking forward to hearing of her progress.

[flrpwr52]

I said in a very happy voice, “come on Riley get you’re Frisbee let’s play,” and she peed by the door. She completely shut-down and although I got her to come by me she was still scared.

 

My Kya has fear issues. I took her to a behaviorist and found out the high happy voice I was using was doing more harm than good. She would wet and shut down just as you described.

 

It only took two meetings and a lot of work on my part to change my tone and slow my words down. Talking softly helped too.

I have never had a fearful dog and was lost on what to do. I was used to playing and getting excited with the dogs, talking fast, in high tones and petting the dogs quickly when they would run past me but Kya couldn't handle that.

I had to change everything "I" did.

 

After taking a shy canine class and working everyday, Kya can now handle normal play in our yard. If we go to the dog park I still have to watch her very close. As long as I get her focus on me and not the others dogs we are OK and she does well. We still go through many treats but she doesn't shut down as often and if she does it doesn't last long.

 

My heart goes out to you. I know how hard this can be. I wish you the best.

[Meg's mum]

In this case, I think neglect may very well have worsened the life your 'soft' dog and magnified the tendencies. You really can't know. Riley's behavior could however, have absolutely nothing to do with 'abuse'. Often, people who have no experience with a natively soft dog attribute it to something external influence when there may not be anything out of the ordinary in the dog's past. For a soft dog ordinary things can be way stressful. Meg had excitement stress piddling whenever she got around lots of people, or went into dogs stores. Gradually it went away by the time she was about a year old. When she four weeks old, she was the only one of the litter that climbed up to a person's shoulders when you held her. I thought that was a sign of dominance, and in some ways perhaps it is, but I'm pretty sure now that her 'brat' dominant behavior comes from her trying to be 'tough'. She has ALWAYS dropped to the ground, stuck her tail under her and siddled up to other dogs with a lowered head and a ready hesitant cheek kiss until she feels comfortable. Big 'bringing home a baby bumblebee' dogs (sorry for the cartoon reference) tend to overwhelm her and she does anything she can to make herself small and protected. She is not fear agressive at all, just plain scared. It really has a lot to do with the dog, but in general she prefers the company of people....they can throw balls.

 

 

Meg is even more afraid however of power tools and the very worst of all things in the world, the vaccum cleaners. Stiff as a board. If she could run away to another state when she sees one just standing there, not even plugged in, she would. She will start remvoing her toys from the yard and hiding them downslope if we run the vacuum when she's home.

 

Now, you could say that I have traumatized her perhaps. We had to leave her alone during work hours for a few weeks in her third month, and then she has been at an extremely good doggie daycare one to three days a week ever since, usually just one these days so that I can vacuum the house and give her time with her pals. We have been slowly remodeling our house ever since she arrived. She had six litter mates and was the runt. We have bears and bobcats and coyotes and mink and two big dogs up the hill and a BC, cattledog, Aussie clan at the corner property that we pass on the way home. Oh and she is constantly being tortured by Sox, her cat. Sox insists on waiting till Meg is asleep and then punching her to get her to chase her, until Meg captures her with a paw over the belly. Sox is allowed to get up when Meg has had a full face bath. Oh, and once in a while we use a harsh voice with her. She gets so unbelievably excited to see my husband when he comes home from work that she forgets to be careful with her paws when she pets him and is relentless about it. And me well, I have a low tolerance for frustration and pull out the loud 'NO'! way too often because she delights a little too much in trying to outsmart me when it is time to come in. But this is a happy, loved, healthy, playful, beautiful, intelligent, miraculous, loving, well exercised BC that is sometimes scared to death.

 

It is really hard not to feel like you are failing your 'soft' dog. It is really easy to look for some root 'abuse' as the cause...I'm telling you about Meg because I want you to understand that there could be no 'causative' agent at all. I think a few session with an animal behaviorist may do wonders for you. In our case....I don't think Meg will ever warm up to machines.

[Ruger's Dad]

Ruger was very shy and submissive when we first got him and still is to a point today. He will be 3 in February. However, he was this way when we brought him home from the breeder. To this day, I won't hit him and he just needs a stern look to correct him. When I walk him he always has his tail tucked between his legs.

 

My advice is to get Riley into every situation you can with people and other dogs. I think the more socialization the better for any dog. Ruger has gone to plenty of ball games, Pet Smart, dog park and generally everyplace with me. He is still very cautious of new people so I keep an eye on him. Of course, he is King Kong in his own yard.

 

We brought up our Springer the same way. She is at least 10 now. She is the sweetest dog you will ever meet. Ruger will never have her disposition but I believe that is the difference between herding dogs, which can be a one person dog, and hunting breeds.

[Guest SweetJordan]

It is really easy to look for some root 'abuse' as the cause...I'm telling you about Meg because I want you to understand that there could be no 'causative' agent at all.

Well maybe not. But I would say that's abuse to be left in a crate all the time. Even if it wasn't physical it certainly was mental. But as you brought up it may have not caused it but merely made it worse.

[Guest SweetJordan]

We brought up our Springer the same way. She is at least 10 now. She is the sweetest dog you will ever meet. Ruger will never have her disposition but I believe that is the difference between herding dogs, which can be a one person dog, and hunting breeds.

 

I know this is how it is generally, but I haven't found this to be very true w/ the dogs who have been apart of my family past or present.

For example, Riley goes to everyone and will take turns following people around etc. Whereas my labby is a real momma's boy. He likes everyone else but he's really a one person dog. If he's w/ me he's happy, if he's not then he's not happy. And again it's not just these two I could provide more examples of dogs in our family who are now deceased. Perhaps when I'm old and I recount all the dogs I've had in my life it will be weighted accordingly.

 

We try to have her meet dogs we know who are sweet. She did attend basic obedience in addition to her one on ones. Though she had to sit in the back away from everyone one. She did improve enough where at the end of the class she was able to walk to the middle of the room just focused on me. And the trainers there loved her, because they could see right away that she wasn't going to bite. She improved quite a bit, but now seems to have regressed which is why I asked for advice/suggestions. A trainer I worked w/ did tell me that training can be like the stock market. When she's out biking she's fine, because she gets to run all out. When she's on a leash walking she just screams and everyone knows she's coming. Again she got to the point where she almost stopped doing that only to start up again. But if she doesn't hear or see another dog she's very alert, but makes no noise. So sometimes going to the pet store for example can draw a lot of attention to us.

[WyoBC]

My Black Jack was about two years old, as I was told. But he did grow some after he got some good food into him. So I think he was more around a year or so.

[bc4pack]

I think there's genetics playing into this as well.

It can take dogs a while to adjust once they're in a new home... many times you don't see the true

dog till a lot later.

There again , it doesn't really matter, does it? You have to deal with the dog you have now.

 

I'll add my voice to those who have suggested both veterinary behaviorist and the Shy-k9s Yahoo group...

 

Let me throw something else out there. Have you had a thorugh vet check done to rule out a medical

problem? Complete bloodwork, include thyroid check// Even vax reactions can make dogs very sensitive

to their environment... Something medical in combo with a genetic shyness predisposition could've been

enough to really rock her world.

 

Stranger things have happened...

 

BTW, if we know where you're at we can direct you to the closest vet. behaviorist. There aren't exactly a lot of them, but most will do in person consult followed up with e-mail/video etc. Kinda depends.

The next option is trying to find a positive trainer that has experience dealing with fearful dogs...again, another reason for the Shy-k9 referral

[Guest SweetJordan]

Thanks everyone. While it can be a bit frustrating to work w/ a fearful dog we wouldn't trade Riley for anything. She's sitting in my lab as I write this(well she was).I think she wants to learn how to use the computer. Now I have a toy being dropped into my lap.

She has had a complete medical, but I am in favor of checking it again in the next few months. As far as a behaviorist is concerned we will have to check into that. I'll have to check out Shy-K9 as well. I also purchased fiesty fido and the fearful canine(not sure if that's the exact title as I don't have it in front of me).

[SnickerKitten]

How long have you had Riley? I can tell you that my Stormy was kept in a crate for the 14 months his original owners had him and he came to me with NO training, NO leash manners, absolute fear of everything (it took me 45 minutes to get him to let me touch him the first time I met him), but he obedience trained quickly, learned leash manners quickly and now having been with me since March is now one of the more dominant dogs in the dog park and I now have to watch him closely with people because he can be VERY pushy and is very settled and happy as long as Mommy is around. He does have serious seperation anxiety if I'm not home according to my husband, though. Hopefully Riley will become alot more secure as time goes on, as well.

 

Lori

[Guest SweetJordan]

How long have you had Riley? I can tell you that my Stormy was kept in a crate for the 14 months his original owners had him and he came to me with NO training, NO leash manners, absolute fear of everything (it took me 45 minutes to get him to let me touch him the first time I met him), but he obedience trained quickly, learned leash manners quickly and now having been with me since March is now one of the more dominant dogs in the dog park and I now have to watch him closely with people because he can be VERY pushy and is very settled and happy as long as Mommy is around. He does have serious seperation anxiety if I'm not home according to my husband, though. Hopefully Riley will become alot more secure as time goes on, as well.

 

Lori

She has been w/ us since the very beg. of May. I don't ever see her becoming dominant, but I consider that to be pos.

.