I have been told there's no hope for my BC pups!

[silhouettestable]

Also we taught the girls to behave around each other and that rewards of any kind (food or pats or attention) were given in the presence of the other dog so they both understood that good things happened when the other dog was around - however for the life of me I now can't remember how we did this.

 

I get all 6 of mine sitting around me, lined up or circling me when I hand out treats. Everybody has to sit to get a treat, and I start handing them out in order of who sat first, second etc. If I have lots of small treats to dole out I just keep going down the line, or around the circle. One for you, one for you, one for you etc. Everybody sits and waits and takes theirs nice and gently. No grabbing or any tiffs ever at treat time. Of course, I first teach each dog to sit for a treat individually, but once they know the drill they all get them at the same time.

[Aprilthe1st]

One thing all of you must know.... Dog hair has become a food group in our house... LOL J/K

[bexie]

One thing I want to note... I took Molly to an obedience class for a while. It was a very bad experience for her. From one class to the next before the culminating awful experience, she got increasingly more aggressive to the other dogs in the class. It was the environment that was causing her fear aggression.

 

So you may want to look into the possibility that with the separation from the sibling or something about the class itself is causing your pups to be fear aggressive in the training environment.

[vaporflowers]

Some times ya just gotta alpha roll a pup, scruff em, get in thier face and let them know loud and clear that #1 You are boss, and #2 what they are doing is unacceptable. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Ive scruffed and rolled a few of my own pups for aggressive behavior, with each other, other dogs, and folks that come over to visit, or food issues. They have all lived through it, no emotional scars, and they resepct each other, but most of all, they respect me, and my role as leader. But you have to have good timing when you are using any kind of correction if you want to nip bad behavior in the bud. Just dont over do it. It is a language that dogs understand. Think of how a mother dog corrects her pups. She grabs them by the scruff, and pins them to the ground, stands over top of them with a low and menacing growl.

 

"Alpha rolling" is a really good way to get bit. In the face.

 

That is NOT how a mother dog corrects her pups. Typically, she gives a quick, inhibited bite to the muzzle. The pups often will roll over submissively. They are NOT forced into being rolled over.

 

A little anthropomorphic, but here is a great page about why alpha rolling doesn't make sense to dogs, with some good links as well.

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/dogspov.html

[kate40541]

One thing all of you must know.... Dog hair has become a food group in our house... LOL J/K

 

This is why I went out last week and spent an unbelievable amount on a Miele vacuum

 

April *click* it sounds like you're doing a lot of things right, I think the people you consulted made you doubt yourself but don't. I'm in the "forget the alpha roll" camp too, at least for the dogs; there's been times I'd like to alpha roll my husband but haven't actually tried it yet Watching my dogs they never make a big deal out of dealing with each other when one has gone over the line, it's short, sharp, and over. No touching, no blood, and if you're not looking you'd not know anything had happened. Your "shush" sounds like what has been called the "game show buzzer" a sharp "ant-ant" I use this more than anything else.

 

Suzanne

[Northof49]

Some times ya just gotta alpha roll a pup, scruff em, get in thier face and let them know loud and clear that #1 You are boss, and #2 what they are doing is unacceptable. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Ive scruffed and rolled a few of my own pups for aggressive behavior, with each other, other dogs, and folks that come over to visit, or food issues. They have all lived through it, no emotional scars, and they resepct each other, but most of all, they respect me, and my role as leader. But you have to have good timing when you are using any kind of correction if you want to nip bad behavior in the bud. Just dont over do it. It is a language that dogs understand. Think of how a mother dog corrects her pups. She grabs them by the scruff, and pins them to the ground, stands over top of them with a low and menacing growl.

 

Actually they don't respect you - you keep them under control by intimidation and fear of you and what you might do to them. It most definitely is not respect.

 

Yes a person needs to assume the leadership role and yes, dogs need to learn what is acceptable behaviour and what is not, however, I would never recommend what you do to your dogs, and I spend countless hours with people trying to undo the damage they have done to their dog(s) by using the things you do. Dogs don't alpha roll each other - than has been proven time and time again. The "alpha" dog never controls the rest of the dog with fear and intimidation - again another myth.

 

Besides fear agression the one thing I deal with the most is rebuilding people's relationships with their dogs after using intimdation/fear/punishment to control their dogs and to deal with the behavioural fallout from that.

[Lenajo]

There are as many ways to train as there are dogs.

 

I'm dealing with a 10 month old toy poodle right now that came into rescue as a neglect case. Before he was neglected he was spoiled rotten to the core. This guys things he can run the house, and if he doesn't like it, he just has to snap or scream in fury and we'll understand. Nope, sorry buddy, we do understand but we aren't listening

 

Foundations of training should be positive. Clear training of what is expected - how to earn reward, what we want, you want etc.

 

There are times though, when you just have to say "that's it. we don't do that". I didn't think of it as any particular method when poodle pup turned into a snapping screaming demon over some painless, but necessary, ear medication a few nights ago. I put him on his side, let him figure out that the option to get up didn't exist, and when he relaxed we medication, massaged, and rewarded. It was not positive at the beginning, but it did not hurt him and he learned there was good potential in submitting to us. We went through the same behavior now with grooming - but each time it gets better, which is a good indication of being on the right track. We can *not* wait to click and treat this, however much I like being all positive. The care he needs is now, so we address his manners and the care right now.

 

Too many people want the dog to be happy after it receives necessary discipline - and if it's not they think the discipline was unfair or mean. Are you happy after being told off? Nope, but you get the point, and as long as it was clear and not used as a routine communication tool you go on without any baggage from it.

 

Nobody can decide what to do with these puppies but you. From what you did with the rake, to me, it sounds like you have a good understanding of fair/unfair and how to communicate with an intelligent puppy. You need to find training environments that support that, and show you how to expand on it.

 

One thing I would suggest is to stop trying to get your puppy to "make friends" at the puppy class and ask if you can participate only in the class portion that involves on lead, non-dog interactive work for a few weeks. If you can get your puppy to relax and stop worrying about being "attacked" (which in the case the typical class full of boxer and retriever pups, is all too true LOL...at least to a body concious collie pup) you will be off to a great start. Then introduce him to some older, quieter, well socialized dogs (that aren't particularily interested in him or whatever he does. Off leash (the leash tends to make it all worse with nervous dogs) let him get all the weird stuff out (the posturing, the snarling) on dogs that aren't concerned. Just sit down and relax while this happens - don't hover or you'll egg it on. If he's really rude and one of the adults gives him the lip or pins him, don't say anything either. If they try to hide behind you get up and walk around.

 

I've raised 4 littermates (3 boys and a girl) at once, and all became happy, socially adept adults and working dogs. It can be done, though it is a great deal of work that most of us would not do more than once Seperate socialization, seperate crates, seperate training, clear rules and boundaries are essential, but so is just enjoying your brothers and sister and an occassional valium for the trainer. To this day they still enjoy each other, and though theire is occassional sibling grumbling about space and who's paw is on who's head, nothing more they like better than piling up with me on the sofa, or going for a walk in the pastures as a group.

 

One other point. The greatest jostling for status in dogs is among littermate adolescents at times. It will be particularily bad with a littermate they don't see often, like this sister pup in class. I would avoid setting those situations up - what you practice is what you get, and if they fight each time they will set a pattern of expecting it.

[Lenajo]

Actually they don't respect you - you keep them under control by intimidation and fear of you and what you might do to them. It most definitely is not respect.

 

Yes a person needs to assume the leadership role and yes, dogs need to learn what is acceptable behaviour and what is not, however, I would never recommend what you do to your dogs, and I spend countless hours with people trying to undo the damage they have done to their dog(s) by using the things you do. Dogs don't alpha roll each other - than has been proven time and time again. The "alpha" dog never controls the rest of the dog with fear and intimidation - again another myth.

 

Besides fear agression the one thing I deal with the most is rebuilding people's relationships with their dogs after using intimdation/fear/punishment to control their dogs and to deal with the behavioural fallout from that.

 

I have to disagree that btchs don't force the roll on their pups. I've seen mine do it, and then even hold the pup down with their chest to force it to submit if it was really cheeky. One of my Dad's had a "game" she played with her pups at 6-7 weeks where she made them submit to rolling over and then would drag them slowly by a leg around the room once or twice. Attempts to resist were met with a forced pin down and a roar or outrage that put the pup in line instantly. The criteria was very clear: "you will submit fully to my controlling you or I will make you" and the exercise was done on each pup - very deliberate. Her dam, the granddam, did something very similar at the 3-4 week mark. All of the pups from that line are very handlable from the start.

 

In a few years I will probably breed one of the current generation's girls and it will be interesting to see if this continues.

 

I've also seen a Maremma force roll a Border Collie. The choice to submit on the BCs part was not made until he saw the wisdom of it with 120 lbs of white implacable alpha fur squashing him. The atttiude of the BC has completely changed in regards to the Maremma - he can now say "please sir, thank you sir, and may I?"

 

Something to consider. Sometimes you build respect, and sometimes you take it.

[Laurae]

One of the problems I have with alpha rolls is that you're attempting to replicate what an animal does to another one of its own species. Dogs have a tremendous range of subtle nonverbal communication that we will never be able to completely even identify, much less understand and then replicate. Even if we could, we don't have near the timing or even the same "tools" at our disposal. So it's a clumsy proposition at best, and the "at best" is people with a great deal of experience managing dog behavior. Because one of the big drawbacks to alpha rolls is redirected aggression, to recommend such a tactic to a novice is beyond irresponsible, IMO.

[PSmitty]

Hear, hear, Laura!

 

Also agree with this from Northof49:

 

Actually they don't respect you - you keep them under control by intimidation and fear of you and what you might do to them. It most definitely is not respect.

 

To the OP, you've gotten far better (mostly) advice than I could give, so I just want to encourage you to not lose hope and good luck!

[BustopherJones]

You have gotten a lot of good advice thus far, and I cannot improve on what you have been told. But I would ask this question. If you had young children with similar problems (the human equivalent, of course), and someone gave you advice similar to what your trainer gave you for your dogs (or suggested that you institutionalize them), would you take that advice at face value?

[Aprilthe1st]

Thank you everyone!

 

As far as the Alpha Roll.. If someone flipped me on my back and held me down, I'd bite them too. That may have it's place, but not for me. I am a novice/pup myself. I'll leave the actions of dogs, to the dogs. For example, when Riggs (18 month old Bernese) squishes them to the ground with his head. Most times when my pups see him, they roll over and show him their belly anyway, and then they all play well together.

 

My kids have and will continue to give me far more grief than I am expecting from these puppies. And you are right, these guys are mine now, and I'll do what I have to. There wasn't a manual that came with my children either..

 

I think having them interact with adult dogs that aren't particularly interested in them is a great idea, which will probably happen natuarally when we are walking around town.

 

Mine rarely get nasty with each other, but when they do, it's as Kate said, short, sharp and over. Like seconds. And it's 50/50 as to who starts it. Oats will sometimes growl at Eddie if Eddie comes near his treat or food bowl, and Eddie will sometimes growl if I am praising him and Oats wants to join in.

 

If I place two water bowls in the yard, they start off each at their own, but always end up sharing the same water bowl. They don't get snappy at each other over the water at all, but with the food they will.

 

I like the idea that maybe the class itself is causing them stress. My first reaction was to keep a tight leash when they first tried to meet the other puppies, I didn't realize that was wrong, that was my own fear. Now I hold my breath and leave the leash loose when we are out and around and meet people. I admit I will have to practice that. (Bad human)

 

One day in particular that Oats was worked up was when they took some agility equipment out and set it up. There were bars to jump over, some laid flat on the floor, some were raised a few inches, there were poles to run between, and this really long expandable tunnel. I'm sure you guys know what all these are. Well, Oats LOVED these games. He especially loved the tunnel. As it got longer and longer, I had to run to catch him at the other end, he was there before me but I was able to get to him. He was rude that day though because he always wanted to go right back into the tunnel, or through the poles and over the bars etc.. and didn't want to wait his turn. I treated him for his accomplishments, but I really don't think I would have had to because he just really liked to do these things, and I did make him wait his turn.

 

One fun thing I tried; one of the exercises was to try and get the puppies to touch my hand with their nose. Well, unable to speak dog, I didn't know how to tell them to do this. So I started with Eddie, I put my hand, palm facing him at his nose level. I made him sit, then touched his nose with my palm and said 'beep'. (I know this sounds silly) I did this three or four times. Then I kept my hand in the same position and said beep, but I didn't touch his nose. He came to me and touched my hand! Worked great with Eddie. I had a problem with Oats. When I raised my hand, palm facing him and my fingers pointing upwards like with Eddie, Oats seemed afraid of that and he barked. So I changed the position of my hand, at my sister's suggestion. I now face the back of my hand to them, with my fingers pointing down, and say beep - both of them are really good at doing this now. Oats doesnt mind it when my hand is in the fingers down position. I wonder why one dog was ok with that and one wasn't. Regardless, its a fun game we play now and both of them are consistent.

 

Oats is far more stubborn than Eddie, he wants to do his own thing. But once I wear him down some and keep making him do what I want, he becomes more focused.

 

I am not going to go to the puppy class anymore, I know that mine will be separated from the others so I will take your guys' advice and let them meet other dogs in less 'forced' and more natural situations.

 

Thanks so much!

[kate40541]

I have to ask, where did the name Captain Oats come from? Isn't it fun when they figure out something like the nose touch?

 

Suzanne

[1sheepdoggal]

Well, I cant build up such a venomus response as Northof49, or Vaporflowers have with thier obvious distaste of my suggestion. However, I do feel it necessary to respond to such statements as this. #1. "I have spent countless hours with people trying to undo the damage they have done to thier dogs by using the things you do" Well, first off, you have no clue, (speculation perhaps, along with a lot of assuming) of what I do with my dogs, but absolutly, no clue. Non of them are ruled by fear or intimidation. They are all healthy, happy working dogs, not bothered in the least by a raised hand or voice. They are not ruled. They are trained. How would I ever get a dog to work for/ with me if it was in constant fear in my presence?! #2. The Alpha dog ( a bitch in most cases) does rule with fear and intimadation. If it didnt, the pack would not survive, because the Alpha would have to outright kill all others that would challenge it in order to keep its position. They use intimidation and posturing to deflect the possibility of a fight. Observe a pack of wolves for awhile, they will teach you all you need to know about how and why a pack operates as it does. Dogs are, no matter how cute and cuddly, just a domesticated wolf, and they come intact with all the qualities to live and survive as a pack in the wild if the need arose. ( proof I could show you in the dead deer on the back of my property that a pack of wild dogs killed and consumed the back half of) You are correct in your assumption ( as Im sure you have already done) that I dont, nor will I ever use a clicker, or food reward for training. A pat on the head, and an atta boy girl is very rewarding to my dogs. Perhaps my confusion when a person comes on here asking for advise about a Border Collie, is that I train/ raise my Border Collies as working dogs. They are kenneled durring the day, worked in the morning and evening, and are crated inside at night. We play ball some times, take long walks in the woods, and do a lot of the things that others do with thier "pet" Border Collies, but to me, they are still a working dog, and are treated and trained as such. I honestly believe that that is a lot of the reason that folks that arent working thier collies have such problems with them, is because they arent being handled as the working dogs that they are. As far as Vaporflowers siteing that alpha rolling is a good way to get bit, perhaps it is in some cases. Though Ive not had that happen to me in 20 + yrs of training dogs when I have had a need to utilize that particular tool. Its all in the timing, and how you handle yourself, as well as handle the dog. Not to mention you really have to mean it and convey that to the dog through how you are feeling about thier particular action when you do it. I will agree with Laurie, that to reccomend such a tactic to a novice was probably not the best advise for a newbie to the breed. Lenajo, is right, as am I, that bitches do alpha roll thier pups, lay on them, and force them to submit. Perhaps not a maltese or poodle mom does, but I have raised several litters of GSD's and Border Collie pups, and have seen it happen quite often, and we are talking about Border Collies here arent we? So, although to alpha roll a young teenager for disaplinary purposes may not be your cup of tea, does not mean that it does not have its place in the training tool box. Training should be firm but fair, the fun comes after they've done it right. I run 10 dogs at my house, all at the same time. Ranging in age from 7 weeks to 9 years, and of several different breeds. They dont fight. Its simply not tolerated. I have had multiple dogs for as long as I can remember, and have made it a point throughout the years to study pack dynamics (dogs and wolves) and to understand the how and why in how it works. I handle and work with dogs daily, it is my job, its how I make my living and have for a very long time now. There are as many ways to train a dog, as there are trainers in the world, and everyone has thier own ideas about what is right or not right for them and thier dog. What I suggested may not be everyones way, or the right way in this instance, but its also nothing to get hostile about either. If you believe that your advise is best, then fine, I hope it works for you, and anyone else that chooses to follow it. But for the same token, your way is not the only way, nor should my suggestion be discredited or discounted, or be ruled as creul or in humane, just because there are those that dont like it. A Border Collie is a working dog, with intellengence far and beyond that of other breeds. They need consistancy, they need, nay want a leader, and they want that leader to always be you. When a dog starts to act out, it is out of confusion and frustration because they are unsure as to how to handle a situation, (unless thier hard wiring is just screwed up, then,,,,well...good luck. Its always going to be a screwed up dog in some form or another.) This board is for people to share experiences and advise, to learn, and to teach. It is a place we can agree to disagree in some instances. But it is not a place where just because a person doesnt agree with another that they can or should try to discount another person for thier methods or points of view on any given subject. I understand that some of you feel strongly about how you train, and thats fine, but still, your way is not the only way, nor in some instances, is it the best way. I sincerely hope that before you decide to blast some one again for having a different perspective than you, that you realize first, that it takes all kinds to make the world go round, that everyone is entitled to thier opinions, and that everyone is an individual. With that said, Aprilthe1st, I hope you succeed in helping your dogs in any way that you see fit, and that you can all get along and have a normal life without having to "manage" your dogs.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Too many people want the dog to be happy after it receives necessary discipline - and if it's not they think the discipline was unfair or mean. Are you happy after being told off? Nope, but you get the point, and as long as it was clear and not used as a routine communication tool you go on without any baggage from it.

 

Hear!

 

I really do believe that there are times when it's much worse to piddle around making the dog play guessing games at what's expected, rather than telling them where the boundaries are.

 

I don't believe in the classic "alpha roll" - we aren't dogs and literally rolling a dog on his back puts us, with our more vulnerable anatomy, in a precarious position. I have, however, pinned dogs (belly down) that were in screaming crazy, adrenaline pumping, trying to kill me mode (or escape, more likely, actually). Being forced into a passive position gives the dog time to calm down, lower his heartrate, and allow his higher brain centers to function instead of his flight-or-fight response.

 

But I prefer a correction that allows you to give the dog more space, not get in his space, if possible. Sometimes you do have to do that to get a dog's attention, but it's rare in a companion dog situation (snarky aggressive behavior is one instance I can think of that warrants a scruff from me).

 

I believe a correction, appropriately applied, should help a dog to think, not stop him thinking.

[herdcentral]

I adopted my BC at 4 months and when I took her to puppy classes she loved the people but was starting to growl at the other puppies especially if they tried to jump on her.

 

I found that by rewarding a good interaction she started to get the idea, I did give a gentle pop on the lead if she growled. I also recognised the signs when she didnt like another puppy rudely jumping all over her and never allowed this to happen. In fact I didnt think that this class was the best idea and we worked away from of the general mayhem. I made sure that all the meetings were controlled and she never felt that she needed to growl.

 

She is now 9 months old and not a sign of aggression with other dogs, she loves to meet and play.

 

I have 3 dogs and I spend a lot of time training them separately mainly for agility and for fun and to develop my relationship with each of them. I do actually believe in the use of food, toys, voice and a clicker and get very good results.

 

I have found that for my dogs any form of force, alpha rolls etc has not worked and in fact erodes my relationship with them.

 

If there are any arguments they get put in their crates to cool off for 5 minutes and when they emerge any arguments are long forgotten.

 

They have a clear understanding of how I am likely to react and seem to enjoy trying to please me.

 

On the subject of rakes and vacuum cleaners they do love to herd both so I just pop them either inside or outside the house if they start. They know this and it is up to them, you can almost see them weighing up the consequences!

[Aprilthe1st]

I have to ask, where did the name Captain Oats come from? Isn't it fun when they figure out something like the nose touch?

 

Suzanne

 

 

Hi Suzanne,

 

My oldest daughter loves two things more than anything else. Pirates and the television series "The OC". On that show Seth Cohen has a toy horse he calls Captain Oats. So this name suited my daughter because it covered the pirate in her - Captain, and the OC as well.. Oats.. Hence the name..

 

My husband and I always argued about baby names. He said if we had a boy, his name would be Eddie. I said no it won't. As it turns out, we had two girls. My husband passed away last year so my youngest daughter said we have to call this puppy Eddie because he is the first 'boy' in the family and Dad will get to have the name he picked out actually used.

 

So there we are, Oats and Eddie..

[Aprilthe1st]

Well, I cant build up such a venomus response as Northof49, or Vaporflowers have with thier obvious distaste of my suggestion. However, I do feel it necessary to respond to such statements as this. #1. "I have spent countless hours with people trying to undo the damage they have done to thier dogs by using the things you do" Well, first off, you have no clue, (speculation perhaps, along with a lot of assuming) of what I do with my dogs, but absolutly, no clue. Non of them are ruled by fear or intimidation. They are all healthy, happy working dogs, not bothered in the least by a raised hand or voice. They are not ruled. They are trained. How would I ever get a dog to work for/ with me if it was in constant fear in my presence?! #2. The Alpha dog ( a bitch in most cases) does rule with fear and intimadation. If it didnt, the pack would not survive, because the Alpha would have to outright kill all others that would challenge it in order to keep its position. They use intimidation and posturing to deflect the possibility of a fight. Observe a pack of wolves for awhile, they will teach you all you need to know about how and why a pack operates as it does. Dogs are, no matter how cute and cuddly, just a domesticated wolf, and they come intact with all the qualities to live and survive as a pack in the wild if the need arose. ( proof I could show you in the dead deer on the back of my property that a pack of wild dogs killed and consumed the back half of) You are correct in your assumption ( as Im sure you have already done) that I dont, nor will I ever use a clicker, or food reward for training. A pat on the head, and an atta boy girl is very rewarding to my dogs. Perhaps my confusion when a person comes on here asking for advise about a Border Collie, is that I train/ raise my Border Collies as working dogs. They are kenneled durring the day, worked in the morning and evening, and are crated inside at night. We play ball some times, take long walks in the woods, and do a lot of the things that others do with thier "pet" Border Collies, but to me, they are still a working dog, and are treated and trained as such. I honestly believe that that is a lot of the reason that folks that arent working thier collies have such problems with them, is because they arent being handled as the working dogs that they are. As far as Vaporflowers siteing that alpha rolling is a good way to get bit, perhaps it is in some cases. Though Ive not had that happen to me in 20 + yrs of training dogs when I have had a need to utilize that particular tool. Its all in the timing, and how you handle yourself, as well as handle the dog. Not to mention you really have to mean it and convey that to the dog through how you are feeling about thier particular action when you do it. I will agree with Laurie, that to reccomend such a tactic to a novice was probably not the best advise for a newbie to the breed. Lenajo, is right, as am I, that bitches do alpha roll thier pups, lay on them, and force them to submit. Perhaps not a maltese or poodle mom does, but I have raised several litters of GSD's and Border Collie pups, and have seen it happen quite often, and we are talking about Border Collies here arent we? So, although to alpha roll a young teenager for disaplinary purposes may not be your cup of tea, does not mean that it does not have its place in the training tool box. Training should be firm but fair, the fun comes after they've done it right. I run 10 dogs at my house, all at the same time. Ranging in age from 7 weeks to 9 years, and of several different breeds. They dont fight. Its simply not tolerated. I have had multiple dogs for as long as I can remember, and have made it a point throughout the years to study pack dynamics (dogs and wolves) and to understand the how and why in how it works. I handle and work with dogs daily, it is my job, its how I make my living and have for a very long time now. There are as many ways to train a dog, as there are trainers in the world, and everyone has thier own ideas about what is right or not right for them and thier dog. What I suggested may not be everyones way, or the right way in this instance, but its also nothing to get hostile about either. If you believe that your advise is best, then fine, I hope it works for you, and anyone else that chooses to follow it. But for the same token, your way is not the only way, nor should my suggestion be discredited or discounted, or be ruled as creul or in humane, just because there are those that dont like it. A Border Collie is a working dog, with intellengence far and beyond that of other breeds. They need consistancy, they need, nay want a leader, and they want that leader to always be you. When a dog starts to act out, it is out of confusion and frustration because they are unsure as to how to handle a situation, (unless thier hard wiring is just screwed up, then,,,,well...good luck. Its always going to be a screwed up dog in some form or another.) This board is for people to share experiences and advise, to learn, and to teach. It is a place we can agree to disagree in some instances. But it is not a place where just because a person doesnt agree with another that they can or should try to discount another person for thier methods or points of view on any given subject. I understand that some of you feel strongly about how you train, and thats fine, but still, your way is not the only way, nor in some instances, is it the best way. I sincerely hope that before you decide to blast some one again for having a different perspective than you, that you realize first, that it takes all kinds to make the world go round, that everyone is entitled to thier opinions, and that everyone is an individual. With that said, Aprilthe1st, I hope you succeed in helping your dogs in any way that you see fit, and that you can all get along and have a normal life without having to "manage" your dogs.

 

Thank you for taking so much of your time reading and replying to this issue. Much appreciated! I can't say what I firmly believe in and don't as far as training yet, because I am learning myself and I have a lot of things to figure out and decide and I am getting to know my dogs more every day.

 

I understand that some people use/train their dogs as working dogs, and to do what that breed in particular does, which is very respectable and it works great for the dog and the owner. However, there are so many dogs that are well trained pets, never used for what their breed is intended for as far as working .. and I think they can be happy dogs/owners too.

 

My BCs will never herd sheep, but they do herd the 7 kids in my family around our deck. They used to run after the kids in one direction. Now they are on to that and they split up, Oats goes one way, Eddie picks the other way, and they stop the kids. It's great fun, the kids love it and the pups never seem to tire of it. Also, I like to walk about 7 miles a day. The pups can't do that now, and we are still working on leash walking, but as time goes by, I plan on taking them on the long walks with me. One at a time to start. Maybe I'll be able to walk both of them at once with me at some point when they are older, but for now I am taking everyone's advice and going to spend as much time as I can with each of them separately. I think 7 miles a day will be good exercise for them. But that's my inexperienced opinion.

 

I like the clicker because it is working for us so far. I'm sure there will be times when I have to be more creative or try different things, and I'll do that when the time comes, and as I learn more. As I said earlier, I am criticized for getting BCs because I want them for pets and not workers. I have more confidence now because of all the great replies and advice I have gotten here and I think we will get along fine with a lot of patience and training.

 

Thanks again!

April

[Aprilthe1st]

Of my 6 dogs I have two 2yr olds that I adopted together as pups that may or may not be brothers (not purebred BC's but possibly BC mixes, and we'll call them siblings for the sake of this discussion since they're the same age and have grown up together), and two 8 month old BC pups. All dogs are neutered or spayed (5 males, 1 female) Both sets of siblings play well together but also get into tiffs that sound and look very serious. The 2 year olds (Flash and Thunder) will be play fighting and then suddenly turn serious, but after a minute or two they go back to playing and running. The pups (Rain and Storm) play really well together, but they also sometimes fight and Rain really pushes to dominate Storm, and she is also trying to work her way up the ladder in the pack, sometimes trying to get into it with Flash and Thunder. She never tries it with the older dogs, in fact she idolizes Lightning and shadows him everywhere. Most of the fights I tend to ignore because the dogs sort it out themselves, and nobody actually gets hurt. Flash lets her know in no uncertain terms that it's not going to work on him (he'll immediately bare his teeth and snap at her and she backs right off) and Thunder tolerates her behaviour for a bit and then also "schools" her. Sometimes she really tests him and he pins her down on her back and she's still hanging on to him with her teeth, but once she gives in he lets her up and licks her face and they're fine together again. I think with so many young dogs in my house they're still sorting out pack dynamics but it doesn't get out of control to the point where they're hurting each other so I leave them to it. What I don't allow, is when Rain tries to control Storm's food bowl. She has the ability to take over his bowl, but then if he goes to the other one she'll try to keep him out of that one too. That's when I'll step in and make her keep to just one bowl and let him have the other. Even though my dogs have some "infighting" within the pack they're fine with other dogs. They all get along with others, I just have to watch Thunder a bit if other dogs come here to visit. He can be rather rude to them. He loves puppies though, he was the best babysitter when I adopted the BC pups.

 

I know I haven't offered you any kind of suggestions about your own puppies, but I thought you might like to hear how a pack with a couple of other BC pups interacts. Good luck with them. I agree with the others who said that 4 months of age is not at all beyond hope for them. I think that's about the age when Rain and Storm first started showing some aggression to each other.

 

I appreciate hearing from everyone and all about the different experiences. Thanks very much!

April

[bexie]

This forum is in favor of BREEDING the BC as a working dog, but is open to border collies as pets. As long as you are willing to help them find jobs and to accept their working traits and work with those sides of your pups, no one is going to criticize you for having them as pets. So you needn't prepare yourself for an attack on that front.

 

While a 7 mile walk will be plenty of physical exercise, you may find that they'll need more mental stimulation. You might want to think about games the dogs can play along the walk to work their mind as well as their bodies.

 

As for the child herding... you want to be careful of not letting the pups use their teeth. It can be a risky game to encourage them to play. I don't know how old your kids are. How will your kids' friends and the friends' parents feel about the game? Are you teaching the pups commands to end the game? For you and yours, it is all fun and games, but what if they see a group of kids in a park and start herding them? Will those kids think it is fun or be terrified? Might your dogs end up classified as aggressive and put down?

 

I don't want you to allow them to do something cute as a puppy that you may regret later. They do grow up. I know my DH is regretting allowing our pup to climb onto his lap and play with him while he eats dinner. She's a year old now and still very persistent and her tail can knock all sorts of things down.

 

A lot of people give you a lot of different ideas. You need to go with what you feel like works best for you and works best with your own beliefs. You also may want to try to find a trainer and a class that you and the pups are comfortable with so you have some support. That didn't work out for me at first because I live pretty remotely. But now we've got a herding trainer that is quite a drive but also a tremendous help with obedience issues. Just one lesson and a few obedience tips has made a tremendous difference in Molly's life. It is things I already knew from here, but she was able to explain them to my DH (dear husband, in case you haven't picked up our slang yet) in a way that made sense to him and he actually listened!! So now he is following the "rules" too and Molly has settled down so much in just two weeks.

 

The small things can really make a difference. For us it is a lot of ignoring her when she whines and not letting her decide when play time is that has resulted in a calmer, more respectful dog.

 

When you're willing to put in the work, you can do amazing things. Good luck with your dogs! Did we mention that we require pictures? Please post some in the gallery!

[pammyd]

This is a really usefull thread in terms of different training methods

and I am sure everyone here does something slightly different

I was planning NILIF and olny positive no negative - and I am doing something like that

But I soon realised that someimes you have to say no too - it never made sense to me to ignore something you didnt want the dog to do - not all the time

When I found Ben chewing a book I said ahhahh really loud and grabbed him by the coller and moved him away - he cringed like I had hit him (looks like I have a v soft dog) but now he knows - and has never done it again

And basically we have the ahhahh noise as an 'wrong' noise - if I am training him and he does wrong ahhahh and then try again - its like an anti treat - and he is happy because he wants to please me so he knows when he is right and when he is wrong

 

anyhoo back to the point

 

Might be a long way off here - but in the puppy class is there any chance that the pups are guarding you? - being jealous of strange dogs who might come up to you??

Ben loves other dogs but if they come up to me he used to snap

So in puppy class while the woman was telling us how to get our dogs to sit (wheve got that!! he is part BC) I sat with Ben on one side, a big bag of treats and another dog on other side

Give Ben treat, Pat dog on other side - more treat for Ben - repeate

Worked really well - he still wont let other dogs climb up onto me but he lets me at least pat them and give them treats

 

And Bexie - spot on about not letting the pup do something you dont want them to do as a full grown dog. there is a great dane owner here and her full grown dog still wants to sit on her knee on the front seat in the car!!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Border Collies usually respond super well to this type of correction, which is non-invasive (remember how pressure sensitive they are). Say, "Ahht!" in a very clear, positive tone and think of leaning your body away from your dog. We tend to lean towards a child if we are trying to get a point across - it's a habit born of the fact that we are very oriented on facial expression and touchy-feely. A lean in for us means, "Listen! I have reason to demand your attention!" But for a dog it means, "I am about to fight you!"

 

Thankfully dogs are very adaptable and most of them learn that we are really speaking gibberish with our body language - like they accept hugs from us, and some even learn to enjoy them, when a hug is a really aggressive move in canine language.

 

But Border Collies are super sensitive to body pressure and it's a harder lesson for some to learn than others. I've learned it's best if you start from a pup, teaching them to respond to you just because of a slightly raised tone of voice, or (conversely) a happy tone, using neutral and open body stances. If you watch a dominant dog who is being pestered by a pup, he will first raise his head (I'm dominant), then fix his eye on the pup (watch out!), then start turning his head away. That looks like he's submitting to the pup, but what he's doing is giving the pup plenty of room to figure out what he wants. Then he'll growl, and as he escalates, he'll move further and further from the pup if possible - a lean, then maybe he'll stand and turn away. If the pup continues to act, it will be very clear what he did wrong, because the dog made it harder and harder to BE wrong - Pup had to chase him into his space!

 

Only if the pup persists will he then slam him - usually pups respond to the lunge by hurling themselves to the ground (and peeing, lol!). If they are stupid enough to get caught, yes, a dog will pin a dog - they usually end up face to face because it's death to get pinned face down (not that an adult would kill a pup - it's a defense mechanism to roll over so the teeth and claws are still available as a last ditch resort and pups learn that almost from birth).

 

Do watch the "child-herding" - they are not old enough for their true instincts to emerge yet, and when they do, if they've been encouraged to treat the children as livestock to be controlled, and not leaders, you might not like the result. Instead, consider allowing some of your older children to work with the pups in training sessions - either with a DVD, a book, or in a formal classroom setting (seperate classes). There are some sports that kids just loooove - my sons both love flyball (it's like drag racing with dogs!), and my one son who is a control freak likes to put my agility-trained dogs through their paces on some baby equipment I have here (you can get toy tunnels and even inexpensive practice obstacles at many pet supply places now). Rally is another one that I think my sons will enjoy (six and eight). The pups can only do ground work and basics with agility and flyball, but they can start much of rally obedience right away.

[vaporflowers]

I still maintain that alpha rolling is a really good way to get bit, especially recommended to a novice over the internet.

 

I do use a food rewards, and often a clicker for complicated commands, because I think that it is one of the fastest ways to reach a dog's brain. I also use play, food, going outside, and other "life rewards". I also correct, using my voice, body pressure, removal of rewards, and an occasional collar correction. Of course, for sheepherding, there is no use for a clicker or food... the reward is the dogs continuing to work. But that is not what the original poster is wanting to do.

 

I'm not trying to be hostile. No matter what your beliefs, recommending an alpha roll, scruff shake, or even a really loud "NO" in the dog's face to someone who is new to dogs, on a message board no less, is extremely dangerous! Especially if this method was applied while the dog was showing aggression towards other dogs... redirected aggression is extremely common in a breed like BCs.

[Aprilthe1st]

This forum is in favor of BREEDING the BC as a working dog, but is open to border collies as pets. As long as you are willing to help them find jobs and to accept their working traits and work with those sides of your pups, no one is going to criticize you for having them as pets. So you needn't prepare yourself for an attack on that front.

 

While a 7 mile walk will be plenty of physical exercise, you may find that they'll need more mental stimulation. You might want to think about games the dogs can play along the walk to work their mind as well as their bodies.

 

As for the child herding... you want to be careful of not letting the pups use their teeth. It can be a risky game to encourage them to play. I don't know how old your kids are. How will your kids' friends and the friends' parents feel about the game? Are you teaching the pups commands to end the game? For you and yours, it is all fun and games, but what if they see a group of kids in a park and start herding them? Will those kids think it is fun or be terrified? Might your dogs end up classified as aggressive and put down?

 

I don't want you to allow them to do something cute as a puppy that you may regret later. They do grow up. I know my DH is regretting allowing our pup to climb onto his lap and play with him while he eats dinner. She's a year old now and still very persistent and her tail can knock all sorts of things down.

 

A lot of people give you a lot of different ideas. You need to go with what you feel like works best for you and works best with your own beliefs. You also may want to try to find a trainer and a class that you and the pups are comfortable with so you have some support. That didn't work out for me at first because I live pretty remotely. But now we've got a herding trainer that is quite a drive but also a tremendous help with obedience issues. Just one lesson and a few obedience tips has made a tremendous difference in Molly's life. It is things I already knew from here, but she was able to explain them to my DH (dear husband, in case you haven't picked up our slang yet) in a way that made sense to him and he actually listened!! So now he is following the "rules" too and Molly has settled down so much in just two weeks.

 

The small things can really make a difference. For us it is a lot of ignoring her when she whines and not letting her decide when play time is that has resulted in a calmer, more respectful dog.

 

When you're willing to put in the work, you can do amazing things. Good luck with your dogs! Did we mention that we require pictures? Please post some in the gallery!

 

Hi thanks! So far the herding game stops when the kids all stop running and the boys just stop too or I call them back. I hadn't thought of them actually nipping them but maybe when they are older they will so I will discourage that game..thanks.. It's not something we taught them, they just seemed to learn to do it and we thought it was so smart of them. But, I will find other games.. and they have never been off their leash other then in the fenced yard or deck. I'd hate to take the chance of losing them or them getting hurt so I am very careful about that.

 

I know from the class how much Oats responded to the agility games so I asked Dad to build a few steps and blocks, that kind of thing for them to jump over and follow around my yard. I have a hoola hoop that he is going to build a block for to hold it upright and maybe they will like to go through it. We're making somewhat of an obstacle course for them, because I know they want busy minds as well. I hope they enjoy this idea!

 

Maybe they are protective of me at the class, I hadn't thought of that.

 

I will let you all know how they like these new toys in the yard when we are all set up.

[Aprilthe1st]

Something I have heard several people mention is how sensitive and aware of their bodies BCs are.. I'm not sure I completely understand that. I have noticed that when I bend down or come toward them quickly, they don't always like that. If I sit and play with them or call them to me from across the room they always come and respond better to that. So coming toward them quickly is scaring them..? Maybe I look like a 5'4 menace to them..lol The kids that are allowed to walk them are 15, 14, 13 and 11. My two girls and their oldest cousins. The smaller kids are only allowed to play with them inside my house if I am there, or in the fenced yard if the older kids or I am there. My thoughts at this point are that they are only puppies and I don't trust them not to get too carried away and become more than the kids can handle. They listen to me more than anyone, especially Eddie.

 

Now that we have colder weather, and even snow this morning, I've also noticed that Oats doesn't want to come in the house, and Eddie never wants to go out, only to pee. Then he wants back in. He's somewhat of a sook right now. I will post pictures of them today too.

 

Thanks!