I have been told there's no hope for my BC pups!

[Aprilthe1st]

I posted this on another site as well and I am hoping to get responses here too! I really need as much advice as I can get.

 

I have been told there is no hope or

action plan to correct a situation I have with my two Border Collie

pups.

 

I have been told by a local trainer in puppy class, as well as a woman

who has run a kennel for the last 30 years, (and who's daughter is a

vet) that there is no solution to this issue.

 

Here's the story:

 

I bought two Border Collies, litter mates. I didn't know this was a

problem as far as aggression. My fault. They are now 4 months old and

are great with adults, kids, an adult, in-tact Bernese Mountain dog

belonging to my sister, and even my cat.

 

My dog's names are Captain Oats and Eddie.

 

Oats will sniff the other puppies and be social for a few minutes, and

then he growls, and wants to bite the other pups. Eddie will growl and

wants to bite the other pups in the class right away when they

approach him, no sniffing or getting to know them at all. Now in

training class we stay away from the other dogs but we continue the

training. They are extremely smart and learn their exercises very

quickly, sometimes in minutes. And they are consistent. I have been

using clicker training. As far as when they exhibit unwanted behavior,

I have been either distracting them with a food lure, and then having

them do something positive that I like, or I have been 'shushing'

them.

 

A quick example: Oats went crazy when I was raking leaves in the yard.

He barked and was getting into a frenzy every time I moved the rake.

So I kept raking but I stood between Oats and the rake, and I shushed

him sternly when he barked. It took about 5 minutes, and he was no

longer interested in the rake, and he went about playing in the yard

while I raked. Once he turned around and started to stare at the

rake, I shushed him and away he went off again to play. The woman who

has run her kennel for 30 years told me that this was abusive to Oats.

I didn't raise my voice, I didn't tap him, or any other correction

other than the shushing sound; she still says that was abusive. I

thought it was effective and he appeared more content. He was no

longer upset by the rake. Crate training has worked perfectly so far

with them, they sleep all night, they don't pee in the house when they

are free etc..

 

She tells me several things:

 

1. I must keep my pups completely separate from each other for at

least a year - no feeding, playing, driving, training, or socializing

together at all.

2. Even after a year, I will still not be able to introduce them to

each other because they are displaying "Inter-Dog Aggression" now and

I will never be able to correct that, even after years.

3. Even if I were to give one pup away entirely, the one I keep will

still always be aggressive to other dogs.

4. She believes the breeder was irresponsible for selling two pups to

me, and that the aggression is the "temperment of the breeding stock",

which is why she believes I will not be able to have happy adult dogs.

5. That they will continue to get more and more aggressive until they

are about three years old, and there is no way to tell how aggressive

they will be toward each other by that point. And that they may be a

danger to me or my children. (14 and 11 now)

6. That dogs are not pack animals, and references Dr. Ray Coppinger as

the source of that information.

7. She says Caesar Milan is abusive and cruel to dogs and the American

Vet Association is suing him for animal cruelty, and I should ignore

his advice completely. (This shocked me.)

 

All of this comes only from the fact that they are aggressive toward

the other pups in the training class!

 

I don't want 'show dogs', I want content, well mannered, happy pets.

I'm dedicated to their training and care, we've become very attached

to them. According to the trainer and the kennel owner, whether or not

I keep one dog or both of them, this is a doomed situation that I

can't correct.

 

What do you think..? Is this an impossible situation..??

[Nik]

This is just my opinion but I think this lady your talking about is full of B-O-L-O-N-E-Y. I have two dogs from the same litter w/ some of the same issues (the competition between each other and aggression) that you are experiencing. They are now 3 years old and even though I have to work w/ them on a constant basis, they are doing just fine w/ each other and other dogs as long as I control the situation when its time to introduce them to something new. Notice I said I HAVE to be in control of the situation. So no....its not a doomed situation as long as you are willing to put the effort it takes to gain your dogs respect and let them know that you WILL NOT tolerate that kind of behavior.

 

My two are the bestest friends in the world...but they can also be each others worst enemy. Its going to take alot of work on your part w/ teaching them what is acceptable and probably a couple more years of maturing also, but it CAN be done. I don't see anything wrong w/ the way you corrected the pup about the rake as long as you didn't beat him w/ the rake. If you told him sternly no and stood between him and the rake and it worked, then you got the result you were looking for.

 

The best way to deal w/ the training issues is to make sure that you work w/ one dog at a time and then slowly introduce them together w/ the same training excercises. That's not to say to keep them away from each other...but neither need the distractions that the other tends to bring about when your working w/ them. They also NEED one-on-one time w/ you only and need a break from each other.

 

Don't give up or let anybody tell you that it will never work w/ both of them....mine are proof that it can be better. It all just depends on how far you are willing/capable of going w/ them. If you really think that all you can deal w/ is one, then it would be best to split them up now. I'm sure others will chime in w/ some more advice, but I just wanted to give you some hope and encouragement.

 

 

ETA: One more point I want to bring up (I have 3 kids of my own ages 6-15) and probably the MOST important is to supervise your children around the dogs and teach your kids the do's and don'ts of how to interact and read their body languages so the kids don't get caught up in the middle of a dogfight if one ever persues, but that is just common sense on any parents part of teaching kids how to interact w/ animals. It's just more important for kids in a household that has a dog w/ aggressive tendencies.

[kajarrel]

Of course, I haven't seen your pups in action but I wouldn't write off any 4 month old pup (guess I don't have the crystal ball your "friends" do) and none of the "problems" you describe sound particularly horrible/intractable. However, the prognoses and prescriptions you describe seem extreme. Sounds like you already know the answer - you need to find another trainer.

 

Kim

[kate40541]

There are people who are better able to advise you than I but one of the most important lessons I learned and will pass along to you is that not all "experts" are. They may be presented to you as such and may have sold books, been competing, running a kennel, or whatever for many years but that doesn't mean they know what they're talking about - at least in relation to you and your dogs. Do what you know is the best thing for you and your dogs.

 

What you did about the rake is what I'm working on with my youngest with the vacuum, so if you're supposed to be abusive then she would think I am too but I don't. They have to learn and we have to teach them. It sounds as if you did the right thing.

 

It's important to give each of them individual attention away from the other one, but that's important even if they're not siblings. And find a new trainer, one who isn't so negative and determined to undermine your confidence.

 

Suzanne

[Mudpups]

I'd find another trainer. If you have described the situation accurately, it does not sound like any major - or permanent - problem, especially in 4 month old pups which you clearly seem willing to put the work in with. Are you taking each pup into training one after the other, or does someone else handle one pup for you? Have you tried taking them to training on separate days, so that you can totally focus on one pup at a time.

 

I am sure that it will be harder working with littermates, but certainly not impossible to overcome these problems with consistent effort. Was the breeder experience with border collies - maybe they would be a better place to get some 'hands on' advice from than this trainer.

 

In the short 10 weeks that I have been a border collie owner, I have found that many people - including experienced dog trainers, kennel owners and non bc breeders alike - seem to have a very biased negative attitude to Border Collies, so finding a trainer that is positive to the breed is probably a good start.

 

I am sure ther are others who will come along and give you more advice, I'm going to go and look up this Dr. Ray Coppinger and find out why he thinks dogs arn't pack animals.

[Liz P]

1. I must keep my pups completely separate from each other for at

least a year - no feeding, playing, driving, training, or socializing

together at all.

 

I wouldn't say you have to be THAT extreme. I would socialize them separately, train them separately (and not have them in the same class), crate them separately and make sure they both have some quality alone time with you every day. It is critical that they bond to you more than each other. Give them an hour or two of play time together a day, but do try to keep them apart most of the time.

 

2. Even after a year, I will still not be able to introduce them to

each other because they are displaying "Inter-Dog Aggression" now and

I will never be able to correct that, even after years.

 

BS

 

 

3. Even if I were to give one pup away entirely, the one I keep will

still always be aggressive to other dogs.

 

more BS

 

 

4. She believes the breeder was irresponsible for selling two pups to

me, and that the aggression is the "temperment of the breeding stock",

which is why she believes I will not be able to have happy adult dogs.

 

Well, yes, she was irresponsible for selling you littermates if you don't have a great deal of experience raising BCs. As to the bloodlines, I have no idea because I don't know their breeding.

 

 

5. That they will continue to get more and more aggressive until they

are about three years old, and there is no way to tell how aggressive

they will be toward each other by that point. And that they may be a

danger to me or my children. (14 and 11 now)

 

She could just be trying to scare you into taking strong action, she could be seeing something we can't because we have never met your dogs, or she could be trying to sell you some more BS. If the aggression is going to get bad you will notice it when puberty begins, around 6 months old with a potentially bloody fight when they are 10 to 18 months old. Even if they are the sweetest pups on the face of the earth I recommend a "nothing in life is free program." (works great for the kids too!)

 

6. That dogs are not pack animals, and references Dr. Ray Coppinger as

the source of that information.

 

Huh, I don't remember that from Ray's books. They ARE pack animals and you and your kids must be firm but fair leaders.

 

7. She says Caesar Milan is abusive and cruel to dogs and the American

Vet Association is suing him for animal cruelty, and I should ignore

his advice completely. (This shocked me.)

 

I have to agree with her on this one. I've seen some videos of him that get my blood boiling. Some of what he says is true, like staying calm and plenty of exercise, but I don't recommend his methods to anyone.

 

What do you think..? Is this an impossible situation..??

 

No, but littermates are 10x the work of a single pup.

 

I have littermates, 1 year old this week. I have them because I bred my bitch and wanted to double my chances of getting a shepdog that would suit me from the litter. I don't take them in public together anymore because they feed off of each other. When one barks, usually to incite play in another dog, the other barks too and it quickly escalates in a frenzy. I've let them out in the yard together and looked out the window only to see them standing a foot apart barking at each other, just for the heck of it. Alone they are great in public, obedient and quite well behaved for a teenage dog. Average pet people think they are amazing and ask me to train their dogs (but I think their standards are too low ) My pups are not aggressive and can play together with other dogs in social situations if I release them into the group one at a time (the 2nd pup comes in after the first has settled in) and I am there to manage them. I call them "Double Trouble" for a reason. They don't start fights but if one gets into something the other has to join in (like wrestling with another dog, which can cause some dogs to get defensive if they feel they are being ganged up on).

 

It's not an impossible situation by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not something I would recommend for a novice to the breed, or even for an experienced person who just wants 2 pets. You really need to treat each pup as an individual; get them both thoroughly trained and socialized in public before you try to have them together in public. They might be 2 or 3 years old before you can handle them together. You do need to sit down and think about whether or not you have the time to raise 2 pups (2 separate training classes, 2 separate walks, 2 separate at home training session, 2 separate cuddle sessions, 2 separate socialization outings, etc). In the long run you won't be doing a service to either pup if you keep them both and really don't have the time to devote to each one as an individual.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Wow, I'd hate to think what that trainer would have thought of me when Ted attacked the broom I was trying to use one day - it's a little hard to sweep up dog hair with an actual puppy attached to the end of the bristles. I'm in the "nip it in the bud camp" and pretty much made him regret the day he was born for a few seconds until he turned right off it. Broom? What broom?

 

Oddly, I heard a top trainer say one time that LETTING them play stupid like that was abusive! How 'bout them apples?

 

Four months old is not too old to correct anything other than very serious stuff, and even that can be helped greatly - four months is prime time in a male for the aggression to emerge - territorialism, fear aggression - it all starts rearing its head between four and six months. It doesn't peak - but this is the time to temper and redirect it. It's usually simply appropriate impulses that need help from you, to give a context to them.

 

Pups aren't allowed to make any decisions about territory or resources - that's a big no. You can say "No" - it's ok, honest. They can learn to alert bark, and then be quiet when you tell them you have heard them - I say, "Thank you!"

 

It really is a good idea to seperate them, however. They need to learn to focus on you and respect you as a benevolent leader (a little Patricia McConnell lingo there). Work them seperately - no need to be militant about it, but make sure they have quality time with you apart from each other, and that they aren't together so much that one is able to subvert the personality of the other.

 

Good luck!

[ZoZo]

Ditto on finding a new trainer. Border Collies are different from other dogs and certainly BC pups are in a class unto themselves. When my BC was 4 months old, she was a complete spaz. She was so distruptive in obedience class that I decided it was time better spent (for everyone) doing the same stuff at home. She wasn't bad, she just had mega energy and no attention span to speak of. Mangement, training, patience and time can go a long way. She's about 20 months now and has turned in Perfect Dog, it's hard to believe she's the same animal.

[Aprilthe1st]

Thanks everyone! I am feeling so much better already. As far as training class, I have always taken them separately. I alternate each week, and I do the homework with both of them every day, but again, one at a time, in a fenced yard or a 15 foot tie out I have in an unfenced yard. I am trying to get them used to obeying the same commands in different places.

 

The behaviourist, the one who owns the kennel, has never seen my pups. All of this information came from a 45 minute phone call. The trainer of the puppy class recommended I call this behaviourist, because of the aggression my pups showed the other pups in the class. So I called her.. and here I am .. however, I am not panicking now.

 

I feed them and train them separately, sit with them quietly, play and walk with them separately, and they also do play together in a fenced area or uncarpeted rooms in my house.

 

I haven't owned BC's before but I truly want to do this well!

 

Thank you all for your help!

[Mudpups]

It sounds like you are doing the right things. My pup is 17 weeks old, and a real gem, but I certainly don't envy your task of raising two at once, they are just too smart!

 

Was the behaviourist suggesting that you need their ongoing (paid) help to avert future disaster?

 

Sometimes puppies are just little monsters and they just need a little time to grow up, but I thought of some other things that might help others give you some advice:)

 

Do your pups socialise with other dogs individualy at other times, or just at training, and how much time do they spend together during the day/night. Just wondering if they are acting agro out of fear of not having their littermate with them around other dogs? Have you tried wearing them out a bit with lots of excercise throughout the day of their obedience class so they are tired? Are they agro towards all other dogs or particular individudal/colour/shape/size dogs?

[Liz P]

The behaviorist, the one who owns the kennel, has never seen my pups. All of this information came from a 45 minute phone call. The trainer of the puppy class recommended I call this behaviorist, because of the aggression my pups showed the other pups in the class. So I called her.. and here I am .. however, I am not panicking now.

 

If they are showing aggression while alone in class that is a concern. It means you will have to work extra hard to correct it and makes it even more critical that you train them separately. Putting 2 aggressive dogs together is a major recipe for disaster. Do find a respected trainer that you get along with and make sure those pups are given the attention they deserve. However, be realistic about taking them into public. It sounds like it would be a bad idea to include both pups in social situations, at least until they are mature and firmly under control.

 

Read up on "nothing in life is free" and read anything you can get your hands on written by Dr. Patricia McConnell (http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/). This is the age when behavior problems need to be corrected and it sounds like you are trying to do that.

[Aprilthe1st]

As a matter of fact yes, the behaviourist did suggest I take them to her to have them properly assessed. She says there are 22 types of recognized aggression, and she needed to see what other types they may be exhibiting.

 

They sleep side by side at night but in separate crates.

 

They just don't seem to get tired! Or if they do, they are easily perked up again with an encouraging word.

 

We have met other dogs on the road while walking and they do seem hesitant, but they still investigate the other dogs without wanting to bite them. The only dog the see on a regular basis is the Bernese, who is 18 months old. Oats tried once to take a toy from Riggs, the Bernese, and Riggs quickly scooped him under him with his paw and pushed him to the ground with his huge head. That was the end of the attitude toward Riggs. I assume the older and younger dog acted as they were supposed to.

 

They play all the time now with no problems at all. Both of mine and Riggs all together.

 

One dog in particular at the training class they didn't like, happened to be their sister. Who I have only met in the class. And she is just as quick to get nasty as Eddie is. Oats tolerates her for a few minuutes, then gets aggressive.

 

We do have a doggie daycare here, but the owner happens to be the trainer of the puppy class, and she doesnt believe that the daycare is a good place for them to socialize. So the one place I can take them to socialize regularly, doesnt want them. Frustrating!!

[Ruger's Dad]

"As far as when they exhibit unwanted behavior, I have been either distracting them with a food lure, and then having them do something positive that I like, or I have been 'shushing' them."

 

Let's see, exhibit bad behavior and get a treat. Exhibit really bad behavior and get a shush. What dog wouldn't love that kind of treatment?

 

Dogs are just like raising kids, they both need discipline which does not include treats or shushes. This is unless you live in the state of Massachusetts. You also need to learn how to dole out the corrections. Some dogs may take a 2x4 between their eyes (you know what I mean) to correct them, others may just take a sharp word. Some dogs if you hit them it may take days to undo what you did in a single action of anger.

 

I would really recommend Cesar Milan. In my humble opinion he knows how to discipline animals to correct unwanted behavior. Almost all the issues that Cesar deals with is due to the owners not disciplining their animals much less knowing how to train simple obedience.

 

Do yourself a favor and run as far away from those "trainers" as possible.

[Liz P]

Let's see, exhibit bad behavior and get a treat. Exhibit really bad behavior and get a shush. What dog wouldn't love that kind of treatment?

 

Dogs are just like raising kids, they both need discipline which does not include treats or shushes. This is unless you live in the state of Massachusetts. You also need to learn how to dole out the corrections. Some dogs may take a 2x4 between their eyes (you know what I mean) to correct them, others may just take a sharp word. Some dogs if you hit them it may take days to undo what you did in a single action of anger.

 

I would really recommend Cesar Milan. In my humble opinion he knows how to discipline animals to correct unwanted behavior. Almost all the issues that Cesar deals with is due to the owners not disciplining their animals much less knowing how to train simple obedience.

 

Do yourself a favor and run as far away from those "trainers" as possible.

 

I really have to ask, are you serious?

[Ruger's Dad]

Very serious except for the 2X4. You can't let a dog get away with bad behavior. You don't have to beat them but you have to correct it right then and there to let them know it is unacceptable. Just like the idiot at the dog park this last week. His dog was starting fights and mounting the other dogs. What did he do, nothing. I won't put up with that and I don't expect my dogs to have to put up with it either.

 

I was also serious about Massachusetts. They are voting on banning spankings. Speak softly and carry a wet noodle doesn't work.

[Gypsy]

Weird. I would definately get a new trainer/class, it doesn't sound like she's very encouraging.

 

And.. It seems weird to me that you would "distract a dog with a food lure" for unwanted behaviour.. does that mean.. barking gets them a treat? That's definately.. odd.

[Liz P]

Very serious except for the 2X4. You can't let a dog get away with bad behavior. You don't have to beat them but you have to correct it right then and there to let them know it is unacceptable. Just like the idiot at the dog park this last week. His dog was starting fights and mounting the other dogs. What did he do, nothing. I won't put up with that and I don't expect my dogs to have to put up with it either.

 

I was also serious about Massachusetts. They are voting on banning spankings. Speak softly and carry a wet noodle doesn't work.

 

Neither you or I have seen these pups in action. If they are displaying fear aggression, which is possible, then correcting them the wrong way could very easily cause an escalation in aggressive behavior. It is a well accepted practice to ask a dog showing aggression to do something more appropriate like a sit or down. Rewarding the dog tells it that sitting/laying down is good. It does not reward the bad behavior. A quick pop on the leash to get the dogs attention is ok, but repeated corrections for barking at another dog can often incorrectly be associated with the other dog, making the dog worse. (The dog is thinking, "OMG, every time I see that puppy I get choked! I don't like that puppy! I'll be fierce and bark at it to make it go away so i won't get choked!")

 

Why I don't like Caeser... Watch the dogs at the ends of his shows. Really watch them. Most are mentally burned out and have shut down, making then docile but NOT cured/trained. I saw someone use Caesar's methods on a dog. The hope was to cure dog aggression in a large mutt. At the end of an hour of training, which included a pop on the leash every time he snarled at strange dogs he met on a walk, he would walk past them without reacting. He wasn't trained though, not by any stretch of the imagination. When the owner got home with the dog she introduced it to the neighbor dog. He sat their quietly, letting the little toy mix sniff him and run around him in circles. He looked cured! It was a miracle! As he recovered from the ordeal he lost the glazed look to his face and began to interact with his owner. All of a sudden he ran across the yard and attacked the neighbor's dog, who had been sitting at the edge of the property looking at something in the next yard. He would have killed it had the trainer not been there the dog would be dead. So no, I don't like Caesar.

 

I suggested a NILIF method, being firm but fair and reading up on dog behavior, not coddling the puppies. There is a time and a place for correction, but rewards are just as important to dog training.

[1sheepdoggal]

Some times ya just gotta alpha roll a pup, scruff em, get in thier face and let them know loud and clear that #1 You are boss, and #2 what they are doing is unacceptable. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Ive scruffed and rolled a few of my own pups for aggressive behavior, with each other, other dogs, and folks that come over to visit, or food issues. They have all lived through it, no emotional scars, and they resepct each other, but most of all, they respect me, and my role as leader. But you have to have good timing when you are using any kind of correction if you want to nip bad behavior in the bud. Just dont over do it. It is a language that dogs understand. Think of how a mother dog corrects her pups. She grabs them by the scruff, and pins them to the ground, stands over top of them with a low and menacing growl.

[Laurae]

Neither you or I have seen these pups in action. If they are displaying fear aggression, which is possible, then correcting them the wrong way could very easily cause an escalation in aggressive behavior. It is a well accepted practice to ask a dog showing aggression to do something more appropriate like a sit or down. Rewarding the dog tells it that sitting/laying down is good. It does not reward the bad behavior. A quick pop on the leash to get the dogs attention is ok, but repeated corrections for barking at another dog can often incorrectly be associated with the other dog, making the dog worse. (The dog is thinking, "OMG, every time I see that puppy I get choked! I don't like that puppy! I'll be fierce and bark at it to make it go away so i won't get choked!")

 

Why I don't like Caeser... Watch the dogs at the ends of his shows. Really watch them. Most are mentally burned out and have shut down, making then docile but NOT cured/trained. I saw someone use Caesar's methods on a dog. The hope was to cure dog aggression in a large mutt. At the end of an hour of training, which included a pop on the leash every time he snarled at strange dogs he met on a walk, he would walk past them without reacting. He wasn't trained though, not by any stretch of the imagination. When the owner got home with the dog she introduced it to the neighbor dog. He sat their quietly, letting the little toy mix sniff him and run around him in circles. He looked cured! It was a miracle! As he recovered from the ordeal he lost the glazed look to his face and began to interact with his owner. All of a sudden he ran across the yard and attacked the neighbor's dog, who had been sitting at the edge of the property looking at something in the next yard. He would have killed it had the trainer not been there the dog would be dead. So no, I don't like Caesar.

 

I suggested a NILIF method, being firm but fair and reading up on dog behavior, not coddling the puppies. There is a time and a place for correction, but rewards are just as important to dog training.

 

I agree with everything Liz said here.

[Aprilthe1st]

Let's see, exhibit bad behavior and get a treat. Exhibit really bad behavior and get a shush. What dog wouldn't love that kind of treatment?

 

Dogs are just like raising kids, they both need discipline which does not include treats or shushes. This is unless you live in the state of Massachusetts. You also need to learn how to dole out the corrections. Some dogs may take a 2x4 between their eyes (you know what I mean) to correct them, others may just take a sharp word. Some dogs if you hit them it may take days to undo what you did in a single action of anger.

 

I would really recommend Cesar Milan. In my humble opinion he knows how to discipline animals to correct unwanted behavior. Almost all the issues that Cesar deals with is due to the owners not disciplining their animals much less knowing how to train simple obedience.

 

Do yourself a favor and run as far away from those "trainers" as possible.

 

 

Thanks for replying.. I was not trying to reward the bad behavior, I was trying to distract them, like when they would bark at cars for example. I distracted them, made them do something I like, such as down or turns their heads to the left..something they had to focus on, and then they got the treat. By shushing them, I mean a harsh sound..but I dont know how you would spell that sound..so I say shush.. lol I'm learning more from this board than the trainers I have talked to so far.

[silhouettestable]

Of my 6 dogs I have two 2yr olds that I adopted together as pups that may or may not be brothers (not purebred BC's but possibly BC mixes, and we'll call them siblings for the sake of this discussion since they're the same age and have grown up together), and two 8 month old BC pups. All dogs are neutered or spayed (5 males, 1 female) Both sets of siblings play well together but also get into tiffs that sound and look very serious. The 2 year olds (Flash and Thunder) will be play fighting and then suddenly turn serious, but after a minute or two they go back to playing and running. The pups (Rain and Storm) play really well together, but they also sometimes fight and Rain really pushes to dominate Storm, and she is also trying to work her way up the ladder in the pack, sometimes trying to get into it with Flash and Thunder. She never tries it with the older dogs, in fact she idolizes Lightning and shadows him everywhere. Most of the fights I tend to ignore because the dogs sort it out themselves, and nobody actually gets hurt. Flash lets her know in no uncertain terms that it's not going to work on him (he'll immediately bare his teeth and snap at her and she backs right off) and Thunder tolerates her behaviour for a bit and then also "schools" her. Sometimes she really tests him and he pins her down on her back and she's still hanging on to him with her teeth, but once she gives in he lets her up and licks her face and they're fine together again. I think with so many young dogs in my house they're still sorting out pack dynamics but it doesn't get out of control to the point where they're hurting each other so I leave them to it. What I don't allow, is when Rain tries to control Storm's food bowl. She has the ability to take over his bowl, but then if he goes to the other one she'll try to keep him out of that one too. That's when I'll step in and make her keep to just one bowl and let him have the other. Even though my dogs have some "infighting" within the pack they're fine with other dogs. They all get along with others, I just have to watch Thunder a bit if other dogs come here to visit. He can be rather rude to them. He loves puppies though, he was the best babysitter when I adopted the BC pups.

 

I know I haven't offered you any kind of suggestions about your own puppies, but I thought you might like to hear how a pack with a couple of other BC pups interacts. Good luck with them. I agree with the others who said that 4 months of age is not at all beyond hope for them. I think that's about the age when Rain and Storm first started showing some aggression to each other.

[Aprilthe1st]

I want to be clear about what I did. They do not get the treat for unwanted behaviour. They get distracted from it. Sometimes I snap my fingers and they turn back to me, sometimes I need to hold a food lure in front of their nose to get them turned around etc.. I THEN make them do something to earn the treat..hoping that now they are redirected, no longer thinking about the unwanted thing they did, and are now working for their reward. I hope I am doing this correctly.

 

I know the first time I saw Eddie acting aggressive, I rubbed his head, told him its ok.. things like that.. then I realized, it must seem to him like I am saying its ok to be aggressive when my intention was to comfort him because he was upset. So I was doing that wrong. Since then, I have tried to change my way of thinking. Trying not to be 'motherly', but really pay attention to what my reactions teach them. I will make mistakes I'm ssure. But I am really learning a lot.

[G. Festerling]

Oh boy....

One, run, really fast from your trainers.

Two, no more than the behaviorist over the phone can evaluate your dogs over the phone can anyone on the net. Therefore we progress to...

Three, different personalities, different approaches. None should ever be abusive. They may be strong but never abusive. There are different methods and most of the time not everyone agrees. Preference always given to the positive approach first.

Four, like everyone already said, don't give up just yet. That would be foolish. They are way too young. But also get yourself some good stuff to take a stiff drink at night. Two of them at once for an unexperienced BC owner - you will be great once you survived that challange!

[Aprilthe1st]

Oh boy....

One, run, really fast from your trainers.

Two, no more than the behaviorist over the phone can evaluate your dogs over the phone can anyone on the net. Therefore we progress to...

Three, different personalities, different approaches. None should ever be abusive. They may be strong but never abusive. There are different methods and most of the time not everyone agrees. Preference always given to the positive approach first.

Four, like everyone already said, don't give up just yet. That would be foolish. They are way too young. But also get yourself some good stuff to take a stiff drink at night. Two of them at once for an unexperienced BC owner - you will be great once you survived that challange!

 

 

I keep telling myself I am invincible !! Thank you.

[Oz Girls]

I can totally sympathise with you. We too found out after we bought our littermate sisters home that it is a less than ideal situation to raise two puppies. And we too found many trainers, other dog owners and even of the vets in our practice did not hesitate to tell us what a bad idea it was (even now some trainers will still bring it up).

 

It has been hard work but the good news is we have all survived and our girls our 19 months old now. Raising two is definitely many times harder than raising one, and we probably did not do 100% of what we could of in the first 12 months but we tried to train them separately everyday at home, walk them separately, crate them at night (and parts of the day) in separate rooms, socialise separately etc. Most times my partner and I took them to training together (in a massive training centre far away from each other).

 

It is possible - you can do it. Get your hands on as much information as much as possible. There is a good little booklet called something like "Living with multiple dogs" that a helpful trainer suggested just after I had been slammed by a "know-it-all" type .

 

Like the other posters have said, try if you can to find some positive trainers, it made such a difference to us.

 

From the begining we were warned about inter sibling agression and this is still a big fear of mine. So far my girls will play gently, play bitey face, chasy or rough and tumble wrestle. Only every now and again do I hear a quick yelp and then they both stop. So far so good, but with them being girls we will just have to watch them always I think.

 

We worked very hard on Nothing in Life is Free. Also we taught the girls to behave around each other and that rewards of any kind (food or pats or attention) were given in the presence of the other dog so they both understood that good things happened when the other dog was around - however for the life of me I now can't remember how we did this.

 

A stiff drink is also a brilliant suggestion!