yes, but, no, but yes

[billiegirl]

Okay....I'm afraid of annoying folks with my incessant questions.

 

But, here goes. Sophie is now exhibiting more and more and more herding types of behavior (i think? ).

I recently posted that she seemed to be growing sooooo quickly and now, certain things seem more acute. Today (after the debacle of the toddlers in strollers fear), she was really really intently watching strangers from afar.

 

When we were walking on our local university campus (late at night as very few people are wandering around) she would see someone - perk up her ears and sit really erect - she would watch them....lay down....watch them.....sit up and sometimes even flatten out while we were walking and she was still looking at them. I'm talking about 10 car lengths away!

 

Now, I've been planning on training her in agility, but now, I'm wondering if I shouldn't change my mind.

 

Is it just the border collie instinct and should I focus on agility?

 

or

 

should I find out if she has the natural instinct for stock work?

 

advice?

[Bo Peep]

That's just border collie- welcome to our world. LOL. Kick back and enjoy the quirks.

[billiegirl]

thanks peep!

 

I've been thinking----to reiterate the "yes, but no, but, yes" idea, I was watching stock dogs and remembered my reading (here on the boards) and realized...I don't have cattle, nor do I have the capacity to rent cattle time. I don't have a farm....I think agility is the way to go for us! It's just practical. I wish there was a way, here in Oklahoma, to find out which she was best suited for - almost just so I could know.

 

A person who was more than a little familiar with both. Someone who might say "your dog sucks at herding...stick to agility" or vice versa . Maybe there is...I dunno.

 

But, you're right...she keeps doing those bc things.

[Bo Peep]

You know, in 20+ years of border collies I've had about 6 litters. NO more for me. But before I bred, my pups were usually sold, until I moved to Idaho and had my last litter. I usually had a waiting list. Your dog doesn't need to herd or do agility to live a happy life. All your dog needs to do is be active. Some kind of job.

When someone would come up to me wanting a pup, my job was to talk them OUT of buying one. Telling them all the quirks of a border collie. If you want a dog that sits by the fire and just wants his tummy rubbed- this is NOT your breed.

Soon, you learn to spot them. Ya know, yuppies make great BC owners. They like to bike, kayak, and as long as they love that dog and want to take him/her with them. That dog is going to be happy. Hikers make great BC owners. I see so many ads for BC's that say "Need room to run" that's BS. My dogs happy fetching the ball down the hallway. Of course he gets out on scenic routes and gets to play with other dogs and such, but basically, he hasn't seen sheep in ages. There are a lot of people on this board that raise their dogs in apartments. Not every dog HAS to herd. Most of them want to. But due to finances, no sheep, whatever, you can't always do that.

So, enjoy your dog. If agility seems fun, give it a try, if obedience suits you, I suggest will all dogs you take at least a 6 week course. If you decide to compete, great. There's always frisbee.........heck, two of mine made it to the finals- one herder and one pet.

Border collies are so versatile, you can do anything with them. All they need is a little mental stimulation and physical stimulation and some basic obedience and you have the best dog in the world. No matter what avenue you pursue.

Dianne

[Michelle K]

Hi! I agree with Bo Peep. I don't have the ability to try herding at this time. I did talk to my obedience trainer last night and she is going to do some checking around to see if we can find someone to try it with. She's always worked with Dobermans in competition for Obedience and Agility, but now has an Aussie, so we'll see what she finds. Since I have 4 "herding" dogs, I have to divide up their training. One thing that I did with one of my Shelties is I trained him for therapy work. That might be an option for you. He went through training, earned his CGC title, and got his therapy dog certification. I have been working Nykie in obedience and I did introduce her to agility (not heavily due to her age at the time). I'll be putting her back in an agility class in the Spring, since she'll be a year old, then. Rain, another Sheltie, is taking a basic obedience class right now. I just have to find ways to keep them active. They enjoy chasing a ball or frisbee outside in our backyard. I'll play ball with them inside some (of course, that's a little more difficult... ). I do have Kongs and a treat ball (can't remember what it's called, but I put food (kibble, since I don't want fat dogs...LOL, in it and they have to figure out how to get it out) that I use when I'm tending to my daughter or anything that I can't be working with them. That keeps them stimulated and out of trouble until I return to playing or working with them. Maybe one of these ideas will help you.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Maybe she could be a goose removal dog? I have no idea how you'd find a trainer for that, but golf courses love them! Do you have geese in OK? Have fun!

[Pat W.]

I have 3 bcs 1 med/low drive 1 med/high drive 1 high drive, none have seen sheep, all have done or are in training for agility. Everyone is happy except perhaps for Whim my high drive pup who is seriously disappointed that we can't practice tunnels at 3am. LOL.

[stockdogranch]

Hi. I'll agree that not all BCs have to work stock. But what you're seeing may not necessarily be "herding instinct." Lots of dogs, and yes, oftentimes BCs moreso than other breeds, exhibit this behavior, but it's really just prey drive. They show this behavior, and then you put them on stock, and they really don't want to work. Chase--yes. But work--no. I searched and searched, but could not come up with Luisa's excellent "rant" on this topic, where she very nicely explains the difference. At any rate, you really can't tell until you put the dog on stock. But that doesn't mean you HAVE to put the dog on stock. If it's a behavior you find annoying (and I probably would), then I'd stop it.

A

[Root Beer]

I've taken Agility (and Freestyle and Rally) with both of my Border Collies, and both have been introduced to sheep.

 

While it is definitely true that both are 100% completely happy even though neither work sheep anymore, I feel that both the dogs and I benefited from the experiences that we had with the sheep. Watching them learn to work a bit, being out there with them a bit, and watching other dogs (dogs who knew what they were doing!) work taught me a lot about my Border Collies that no other activity that I've done with them has. I can't even really explain what I learned, but it was definitely significant.

 

Some of it was along the lines of, "oh - that's why he does that!", some of it was seeing the pure joy that both of them got from being around the sheep.

 

Both dogs experienced an impact from the sheep, too. In the end I decided not to pursue it with either dog, but I know that the lessons we took were good for all of us. I recommend it to anyone who has the opportunity - even if you aren't going to get into it.

 

That said, both dogs were happy before they ever saw sheep and both dogs are happy now that they don't take lessons anymore. Both of them LOVE training time, play time with the ball, swimming, and pretty much doing anything that I want to do.

 

Dean does something like what you describe your dog doing when he sees something that throws him for a bit of a loop. He lies down and stares and sometimes gets back up. Sometimes I allow it. Sometimes, I just say, "OK, Dean - let's go!" and we go do something else.

[hoku's mum]

Great advise so far. And I agree with Anna, if the stalking behavior bugs you, stop it. If you want to do agility, (and its is big fun!) you will have to have your dogs attention on you, not the other dogs in class, the people walking by, the kid a block away... and that is what bc's want do.... they seem to need to be on top of everything that is going on in sight. We work on 'look at me' when Hoku's attention starts to get sucked way. We do fun and distracting things so he can't obsess on other dogs or people. I'm sure what ever you do with your dog, stock work, agility, hiking pal, Frisbee, whatever, being able to get her attention on you is a good thing.

 

Most of all, have fun with her and work her brain!

[Black Watch Debatable]

It's prey drive! That "rant" thread.

[stockdogranch]

Thanks, Luisa. You explain it so well...

A

[billiegirl]

Thank you all so much. Great stuff! I love all the great ideas about finding an outlet for my lovely, smart and energetic puppy.

 

More than anything, I was thinking about the herding as something she may enjoy learning and doing. Mostly because of the area I live in. But, also this super obvious prey drive activity has been really new for her. I'm sure it's because she's growing up - she's in a bratty ignore the mom stage...especially around distractions. She'll follow commands on leash, but only briefly....that's for a new post. Which is coming.

[Root Beer]

Well, even from what you just said, if she only responds to your cues on leash, that's where I would focus training for right now. Indoors, on leash, in a setting that has as few distractions as possible and with tons of rewards. Then, as your dog gets better at responding in that setting, you could move your training into more distracting settings gradually.

 

Also, there's no harm in retraining from scratch when your dog's mindset changes as he or she grows. It's kind of how kids usually need to study to get A's on tests in school. Yes, sometimes they remember everything they hear in class without studying, but most kids will not ace a test without some review of the material. Our dogs need "refreshers" even more sometimes. And sometimes they need us to adjust our expectations to their actual abilities instead of where we think they should be.

 

I'm going through this myself right now with Dean. I constantly have to remind myself that he is young and I have not finished laying the foundation of his training yet. Sometimes he does dunderhead things! Sometimes he forgets how to resond to cues that he used to know before. Sometimes I need to retrain, or approach the behavior differently. But it's a good opportunity for me to grow and improve as a trainer and it's a most excellent time for setting a good foundation for our future training rapport. I find that if I keep that in mind, I have a new, much more enjoyable, mindset toward this adolescent stage.

[billiegirl]

Thanks Kristine. When she is good she is very good and when she is bad she is horrid! ROTFL

 

I posted the other day about her biting during playtime and was so upset that day....it was a "horrid" day. But, today the sensitivity thing clicked with me. I realized that when I would reach for her ball to throw it again, she would react when I was moving too fast and bite....either thinking that I was trying to play or her prey drive was coming out...probably both.

 

So....today, I squatted to her level, rather than bend over and moved my hand slowly and close to the ground.

 

It seems to have worked for the time being.

 

We'll see tomorrow .

 

Her L and R spins are coming along great, too.

 

I've also been considering doggie day care with a grassy dog run for her while I'm at work. It's nearby my job, so it would be nice to take her in the morning...let her play to her heart's content...visit her anytime I feel like it (during the time I'm at work) and take her home and continue with her obedience. I think it would also socialize her a great deal.

 

I wish I knew of a farm nearby where someone wouldn't mind letting her run around and keep them company while I was at work. I would prefer that to a fenced in dog "resort"

[billiegirl]

okay....on with the yes but no but.

 

I was taking out the trash and Sophie was accompanying me. I was trying to get her to come (although I know she won't go far without me) when my roommates dog Lucy decided to make a dash. I started trotting after the old dog (a little shizhu type) and Sophie came along behind me and before I knew it was parked in front of Lucy not letting her pass.

 

Soph was right in front of her like a stone wall - as if to say - "hey.....my mom's trying to get you....pay attention".

 

It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. So, maybe there is something to yes but no.

 

That didn't seem predatory to me...that seemed like collecting a stray animal. I'm still leaning toward agility, but I dunno.

 

Thoughts?