It's Prey Drive! (Rant)

[Black Watch Debatable]

[i seem to post variations on this rant every few years. Apologies in advance ]

 

The terms ?herding,? ?herding behavior? and ?herding instinct? have turned up in a lot of posts lately: Scout is ?herding? other dogs at the dog park, ?herding? the cat, ?herding? family members? the garden hose? the school bus? pet ferrets? a peanut [that was very cute, actually ]? herding herding herding.

 

Only it?s not herding.

 

When your pup bothers the pet ferrets, runs laps around the neighbor?s grandkids, chases water from the garden hose until he?s soaked, nips at the hands and pants of your squealing six year old, runs furiously after every car and bicycle he sees or does a crouch/stalk/circle routine at the local dog park, he isn?t ?herding,? and his behavior isn?t evidence of ?herding instinct.? It?s prey drive.

 

Say it with me: prey drive. If it were herding instinct, I?d be running my pit bulls in the USBCHA Finals.

 

Prey drive is present, to some degree, in just about any dog, even in a few whose breeds have been reduced to a state of near-inertia by the conformation crowd. Chihuahuas can exhibit prey drive. Poodles can display it. The only, I repeat, only difference between their behavior and your wonderful border collie?s behavior is that when poodles and Chihuahuas do all that crouch/stalk/chase/grab stuff --- and they do --- no one says, ?Look! Bit-Bit is herding!?

 

My heart dog used to chase low-flying planes across 20+ acres. (The farm was under an airport flight path back in the day.) You?d think there must have been hundreds of ?trying to herd the airplane? remarks, right? Wrong: of all the people who saw him do this, not one person said anything about ?herding.? The dog was a pit bull. You can imagine what the comments would have been like if he?d been a border collie or an Australian shepherd.

 

Last summer a BC Boards poster asked her dog behaviorist, ?Why would my border collie chase a single car but ignore steady traffic?? The behaviorist explained: Of course your border collie chases single cars, because a car on the road by itself has obviously escaped from the flock. But when your Jack Russell does the exact same thing, what?s up with that? Does he think a single car on the road is a large, shiny woodchuck that has just emerged from its communal burrow? Please.

 

Movement triggers predatory instinct. This is the reason bullfrogs gulp golf balls and grizzlies chase tourists. It?s the reason dog bite prevention guidelines always say: ?If an unfamiliar dog approaches, remain motionless. Do not run from a dog and scream.?

 

Not: ?Determine whether the dog is a ?herding breed.? If so, remain motionless or the dog will ?herd? you. Other breeds --- run, scream, whatever, they won?t do a damn thing.?

 

They will chase you, too, and they?re not herding. It?s prey drive.

 

 

That thing called ?herding instinct? or ?herding behavior? is quite different, though it has its evolutionary roots in prey drive. Instinct is the inherent capacity to perform a complete behavior sequence [think: spider + web], and for working border collies this means the gathering and conscientious management of livestock, in great or small numbers, in relation to a shepherd who may be close at hand or out of sight and miles away. A dog can?t be ?trained? to perform these tasks: Donald McCaig emphasizes that the job of a good sheepdog handler is to summon the dog?s genetics.

 

But what about shelties and corgis and Belgian sheepdogs? Aren?t they "herding dogs"?

 

Nowadays, not even close. Fifty or one hundred years ago or more, a few of their ancestors may have helped to work livestock. It?s been nothing but show dogs and pets ever since --- and no, an AKC ?herding instinct certificate? or ?herding title? doesn?t mean a thing.

 

The entire AKC ?herding program? exists because a responsive dog of any breed, given sufficient prey drive, can be trained to move tame stock in a controlled environment: no stock sense is necessary. If AKC ?herding? trials were open to all breeds, I guarantee that there would be shih-tzus and golden retrievers with ?herding championships.?

 

A few posters have offered sensible management tips for high drive dogs. Prey drive can, and should, be managed safely. ?He?s just herding? should never be used as an excuse for a border collie?s inappropriate behavior.

 

Working other dogs, not to mention chasing cars and kids on bicycles, is offensive, aggravating and dangerous. Good management is the best way to keep a very young pup from developing these habits. If the behavior starts, remove the pup, remove the focus of his attention or redirect his interest. The habit of working other dogs or chasing cars can become so deeply entrenched that it?s pathological, and there?s nothing cute about it. If you have an adult dog with an extreme dog-working or car-chasing jones, for his safety and sanity (and for the safety of others) avoid putting him in situations where that switch will be flipped.

 

By all means take your drive-y young border collie to stock when he?s mentally and physically ready. He needs the physical challenge and the mental focus, and experience on stock will make it much easier for you to call off a dog that launches himself after the neighbor?s cat or a child on a bike.

 

To sum up: good working border collies, like most purpose-bred dogs, have lots of prey drive, but prey drive itself is no indication of a dog's working background, instinct, ability or potential. When it comes to pet ferrets and kids on bikes, Kep isn?t herding: he?s only doing what any energetic dachshund, golden retriever or cocker spaniel would do under the same circumstances. It?s prey drive.

 

[yoga breaths] Ok, rant off.

 

***

 

[One more thing about the word ?herding?: many old-hand stockdog people will talk about ?herding instinct? and ?herding behavior? in a very general way, but not to describe what working dogs actually do. Border collies work stock, move stock, hold stock, etc. ?Herding? is used to describe what dogs at AKC ?herding trials? do. The ?h? word has become a polarizing cultural marker, and some working border collie partisans go out of their way to mock and/or disparage anyone who uses it to describe stockwork. This may seem very much like middle school cliquishness (and it is, to some extent), but keep in mind that AKC ?herding? proponents would destroy the working border collie if they could, just as conformation breeding, ?versatility? breeding and title-chasing have destroyed other working breeds.]

[juliepoudrier]

Great rant Luisa, thanks for posting!

 

J.

[PSmitty]

Very informative, thanks.

[Dixie_Girl]

I have a question. Isn't the act of herding stock a modified prey drive? Another thing, before Jackson ever saw a sheep, my son had his damnation here. Jackson, routinely boxed her into a corner of the yard. He never attacked her, just used his body to get her in the corner and then kept her there till I would realize they were "missing"(a part of the yard I couldn't see from my window) and call him off. Now Skip, when he is chasing Jackson chasing a toy, is not herding Jackson, he's trying to get said toy from him.

 

IMO there could never be herding without the prey drive, but prey drive does not = herding. If the dog is moving stock, holding them in place, sepperating them, this is stuff he was taught to do. But it could not be achieved without a high "prey drive". A dog working sheep, are using instincts that except for breeding and training would end with a kill, instead of penned sheep. Which is why border collies untrained and allowed to run loose with stock will kill sheep. Just like any dog with high prey drive.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Thanks, ditto here.

Wish I had a nickel for every moron who said their pet herded the kids, etc.

Herding, to me, and I kind of hate to use the term here, is when my dog waits (on his own, guaranteed to give me happy chilly bumps) for a single to think out how stupid it is to be out there on her own and rejoins the group. Same thing when he/she figures out balance and distance using their God given genetic potential.

[Maralynn]

Very good post Luisa!

[tanya4]

I love the rant!

 

I have always allowed that all the different behaviors that the different breeds display are variations of prey drive. Newfy's retrieve people from water, labs retrieve dead ducks, greyhounds chase fake rabbits, my kitties chase bits of fluff, etc. However, I would never say a newfy was hunting prey when it rescued a person from the water, because the instinctive behavior has changed so much from the prey drive it originally was. Newfy's actually jump into the water to save people with no training whatsoever!

 

I like to celebrate these differences in dogs' behaviors! I love it that my dog herds everything. I know it's derived from prey drive, but it's so cool to see how far they've deviated from that! That's why I call it "herding" instinct.

[Sue R]

Well done, Luisa! That clarifies a lot of misconceptions, and sure is helpful to me.

 

Best wishes!

[Anda]

Luisa, that was excellent!

 

In the begining, when I was just starting to read about border collies, and Ouzo was just a baby, I kept hearing about how they herd everything, bla bla, and thought some of his behaviours were just that. But the more exposed I was to this board and reading some of the experts' postings (Bill Fosher's for example, among many others), the more I started to look at his behaviours as being prey orriented. Such as the way he stalks rabbits. That's not herding, even though he appears to give them "the eye" and he moves in slow motion, low to the ground... He's not trying to get that rabbit anywhere but between his paws and see if it squeeks like all of his other toys.

 

And I realized how important is to control this prey drive, instead of pointing at it and say "Look, he's herding the bunny"

 

Again, Luisa, thanks for making it so clear and eloquent.

 

Anda

[Hector]

Makes perfect sense, and I learned a lot. Thanks.

 

Hector

[borderlicious]

Very good rant.

 

I've studied the behaviors of a lot of Border Collies lately and realized that although my dog appeared to be "herding" while he was doing his job as a goose control dog, it was just chasing with a high level of obedience. While he understands the concept of "bring _____ this way" and developed enough self control to not go berserk and scatter them everywhere, when left to his own devices he didn't want to direct the geese anywhere. He just wanted to run them off and enjoy the thrill of the chase. It made him a phenomenal goose dog but I think he'd be worthless as a sheepdog. Everyone (including me) was convinced that this was herding instinct in action, and some of it may have been, but that's a freaking far cry from actual, useful herding behaviors.

 

I find prey drive just as fascinating as herding behaviors and I love to watch Border Collies stalk random objects, other dogs or airplanes (lol). They're some of the only dogs I've seen that have predatory behaviors (crouch, eye, careful movement, etc)as pronounced as their wild cousins. However, I completely agree that it can be dangerous if it reaches an extreme degree, particularly trying to "herd" other dogs and car chasing.

 

I do think that many people claim Border Collies are herding because of their body language. Some BCs crouch and stare at a ball the same way they crouch and stare at a sheep, therefore people think they're trying to "herd" the ball. In reality I think it's just part of the Border Collie's mannerisms. I trained a puppy that would eye-stalk balls, grasshoppers and people that she found interesting. *shrug* It definitely wasn't herding behavior, it's just what she did.

[stockdogranch]

Well said, Luisa! I would add that the primary difference in "prey drive" and "working instinct" is the word WORK. My ex's mother's Yorkie would go out and circle the sheep. We could even get her to go both ways, and she would nip at heels to get them going. They were so unsure of what in the heck she was that they'd move away from her. I have video of it, in fact. "Herding"? (Much as I dislike the word), NO. Prey drive? Yes. Most dogs will chase anything that moves. The difference between that chasing and the WORKING of the BC is that the willingness to WORK with a partner (the human, or big brain in the picture) is part of the genetics. Many people over the years have brought dogs to me for an instinct test that were "herding" the kids, the kitty, whatever. Put them on sheep--yawn, and go stand at the gate after an initial bit of chase. Most will chase--but the distinguishing factor is then, are they willing to WORK? The answer for most of the other "herding breeds" (and the Barbies and Sporties) is a resounding NO.

Anna

[Carson Crazies]

Thank you Luisa.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

Border collies work stock, move stock, hold stock, etc. ?Herding? is used to describe what dogs at AKC ?herding trials? do. The ?h? word has become a polarizing cultural marker, and some working border collie partisans go out of their way to mock and/or disparage anyone who uses it to describe stockwork.

Oh, yes. That's why I refer to Quinn's "sheep lessons." I'm not sure what else to call them without using the dreaded, mocked "h" word. I just talk about lessons with the instructor. I figure he knows what I mean

[G. Festerling]

I also work German Shepherds in protection work and loved your "prey drive" rant! Very clear and to the point!

[sandra s.]

I do see elements in Kessie's play behaviour that are different from the way "ordinary" dogs mostly chase each other. She often seems more interested in making Kyla (voluntary prey) run in a certain direction, heading her off, than actually getting her (at other times she chases her like a sighthound...two different games.).

Of course that's no reason to apply for honorary ISDS papers or however you call that stuff, but it's a h*ck of a lot easier just to use the dirty old h-word than to try to describe her behaviour without using it . Lazy, yes.

 

Same with the actual sheep "work". I'm aware of peoples' dislike of the h-word, but I can't call it "work" for the life of me, not when I'm talking about our own lessons. Watch us and you'll know why .

Besides, h****ing is a nice, precise, short word (same as the German "h?ten", which is perfectly innocent as far as I know) and it's not been invented by the AKC. But if it gets peoples' hackles up badly, I'll call them "sheep lessons" too.

 

I do agree that calling it "herding" doesn't make a behaviour any more acceptable than "chasing" would be.

[Sue R]

...keep in mind that AKC ?herding? proponents would destroy the working border collie if they could, just as conformation breeding, ?versatility? breeding and title-chasing have destroyed other working breeds...

This makes me think so much of something I heard a bit ago. A staunch AKC breeder (not, thankfully, Border Collies) was telling everyone how conformation standards maintained the instincts necessary for the original purpose for which breeds had been bred.

 

His example? A dog of one of the "sporting breeds" that was in the show ring when a small bird fluttered down on the ground in front of it, and it went "on point" and stared at the bird! That was proof positive to him that breeding for a physical standard maintains (probably, in his mind, even improves) the funtional instincts/genetics that were originally found in that breed before the show ring entered the picture to "improve" the breed.

 

By the way, this same individual regards the multi-occasion winner of the Westminster and other "important" shows' so-called Border Collie breed as a "gorgeous dog and he has herding titles on him as well". Again, proof to this person that breeding for an appearance standard (no matter how arbitrary or contrary to function it truly is) is the only way to improve a breed and maintain its usefulness. Duh.

 

I think Luisa's rant would be well worth being in the FAQ section for ready and easy reference.

[borderlicious]

Originally posted by sandra s.:

I do see elements in Kessie's play behaviour that are different from the way "ordinary" dogs mostly chase each other. She often seems more interested in making Kyla (voluntary prey) run in a certain direction, heading her off, than actually getting her (at other times she chases her like a sighthound...two different games.).

Of course that's no reason to apply for honorary ISDS papers or however you call that stuff, but it's a h*ck of a lot easier just to use the dirty old h-word than to try to describe her behaviour without using it . Lazy, yes.

 

Same with the actual sheep "work". I'm aware of peoples' dislike of the h-word, but I can't call it "work" for the life of me, not when I'm talking about our own lessons. Watch us and you'll know why .

Besides, h****ing is a nice, precise, short word (same as the German "h?ten", which is perfectly innocent as far as I know) and it's not been invented by the AKC. But if it gets peoples' hackles up badly, I'll call them "sheep lessons" too.

 

I do agree that calling it "herding" doesn't make a behaviour any more acceptable than "chasing" would be.

I'm with you on not being able to call it work. Dakota will circle animals (goats and geese, never been on sheep) but he isn't working. The tail is mobile and he has a big grin on his face. What would I call it, then? He's training, but not really working. I call that stuff "herding", not with intentions of offending anyone, just because I don't know what else to call it, that will be easily understood by people.

[bailey44]

Very interesting. I use this term when I shouldn't all the time. Especially since just this morning my dog's "work" consisted of lying on my huge bed looking like a princess while I puttered around, followed by serious trash can diving, pencil chewing, (her, not me), assistance with the dishwasher, and a good half hour of staring out the back door making notes about where the busy squirrels were burying nuts...

I agree with Sandra S. that this dog is different than others I've had because she very deliberately moved my MIL's little dog up the stairway and made it go behind the baby gate that was casually leaned up against the top of the steps and would not let it come back from behind the gate. Any other dog I have had never showed interest in this type of behavior. I also think the little dog wasn't having much fun and I made my dog leave it alone after that.

I'm going to be more mindful of using the word "herding"--it seems almost disrespectful to the dogs that put their health on the line every day to assist humans.....Charlene

[kelpiegirl]

Then there is the scenario where you are new to all of this, and the young dog is too, and said dog is not against working the sheep for herself. Now, that is NOT herding folks! Fwiw, I call my lessons "sheep work" Is respectful, and it *really* is work for me!!!!!!!!!!

Julie

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I call it herding when I'm talking to non-BC people. I feel pretty secure that no one would peg me as an AKC type. I never ever ever call the silly non-working stuff herding or working or whatever. Espcecially like when someone is talking abut nipping kids or the other dogs. I say, "Would it be excuseable if a Golden retriever grabbed an infant by the neck and dragged him across the room to you? 'Oh, look, honey, he's fetching up the baby - he has retrieving instincts!'"

[Anda]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Irena Farm:

I say, "Would it be excuseable if a Golden retriever grabbed an infant by the neck and dragged him across the room to you? 'Oh, look, honey, he's fetching up the baby - he has retrieving instincts!'"

LOL Rebecca

[Denise Wall]

Border collies work stock, move stock, hold stock, etc. ?Herding? is used to describe what dogs at AKC ?herding trials? do. The ?h? word has become a polarizing cultural marker, and some working border collie partisans go out of their way to mock and/or disparage anyone who uses it to describe stockwork.

I rarely post anymore but the above bears repeating. Another polarizing cultural marker is calling them "Borders" instead of border collies.

[Sue R]

Another polarizing cultural marker is calling them "Borders" instead of border collies.

I agree. This one absolutely sets my teeth on edge. Fortunately, those that use this out of ignorance generally soon learn better on these boards.

 

I make it a rule to (as politely as I can) correct anyone who calls my dogs "Borders", and make the point that they are "Working Border Collies". This often opens the opportunity for an educational discussion that I'm more than willing to elaborate. Both my vet and my dog food supplier now distinctly introduce my dogs to others who ask (and some who don't) as "Working Border Collies".

 

If someone's mind is already made up and they don't want to know any better, then that's their problem, not mine.

 

Good to hear from you, Denise. How is Mick doing? Much better, I hope.

[RaisingRiver]

Great topic.

 

My BC doesn't 'herd' anything. And I took deliberate pains to make sure she didn't as a pup. (ie. the kids, the cats, my horse, other dogs, etc). To me it was manners, plain and simple. I didn't her to 'chase' anything without my permission.

 

My GSD/Chow mix 'herds' every car that comes down my road by running along the fence line at it in full speed (the dog never runs full speed otherwise).

 

In this senario, my GSD/Chow is more BC-like by general definition then my BC is. HA! 100-1 if I put my BC on sheep, I bet she would work them and my GSD/Chow would be like 'eh'?