smileyzookie Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 So my friends and I went to Rivens agility place. Riven was the only dog barking, whining, and being a general loudmouth. It was humiliating. The guy was talking and Riven was barking over and over and over. Its all positive, I couldnt correct her. It was embarassing. I had liver treats I baked last night and she just wouldnt shut up. I got frustrated (I know I know I shouldnt have) and ended up leaving before I wanted.... My positive obedience trainer was there, and she knew Riven had the issue with other dogs and made the comment "she's still pulling ya huh?" -- um no, I've taught her to act like a sled dog and I pretend to be a sled... good grief... However, I did like the place, I did like the people and I am gonna go ahead and have lessons with a lady I met a while back. It will be just her dog and my dog, and I know Riven well enough that 1 dog will bore her after about 30 seconds and she'll lose interest. Then we can work.... I did tunnel with her. She went through the FIRST time! I said "go tunnel" and she goes in and never comes out... I look in and she's sniffing inside it LOL. She saw the treat at the end and went right to it. I took her through it a few times and she went through every time. I was very happy with that. Here is the only picture of the day, I was frustrated so I didnt take any and my friend went ahead and took 1. The girl standing with Riven as she's going in the tunnel is my neighbors daughter. She wanted to try it, and Riven went right through it for her as well. I am the one in black shirt/jeans at the end of the tunnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted August 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Here are a few pictures of her good job at agility reward. Yes I know she was bad, but I love her and I cant not be happy she did superb with the tunnel. Mine? My toy?? Yes I'll take that thank you Mmmmm.. pretend squirrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 So my friends and I went to Rivens agility place. Riven was the only dog barking, whining, and being a general loudmouth. It was humiliating. Don't be too upset over it - that type of situation has happened to lots of people. Myself included. Kipp goes bananas sometimes around other dogs - who are all minding their business and focusing on their owners. It really bothered me at first, but the more I looked at it as a training opportunity, the less it bothered me. I know what his issues and triggers are, so I work on not letting him get to a point where he is so distracted he can't listen, then reward for desired behavior. It is working - slower that I'd like, but we are making progress. One on one with the other trainer sounds like the way that you need to start with Riven. That way she can focus without all the distractions. When you bring other dogs into the picture, add them one at a time after she has learned to focus on you doing agility. She needs to learn what you expect and that it is fun and rewarding. Then you can add in distractions (i.e. other dogs). I bet she'll catch on quick in a distraction free environment - especially if she was comfortable with the tunnel right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie&MeBC Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Try not to feel too bad about it. A lot of dogs seem to really love to embarrass us at the worst times. But what a good girl with the tunnel, glad it went so well! I was doing agility practice with Millie and when we were taking a break for a bit she dove right into the tunnel to get in the shade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted August 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Thanks guys. It was just really embarassing. I am sitting here thinking on it and it was just like I wanted the earth to open up and swallow me. I didnt even know what the guy was saying during his demonstration because I couldnt even hear him. So, Im sure those around couldnt hear either. Im one of the people who hate when children are disruptive in like restaurants and stuff, so this sort of thing falls into that category in my mind and it was just awful. But, Im trying not to dwell on only that and keep thinking that she was very willing to try the tunnel even with all the other dogs/distractions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie&MeBC Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 The more she gets used to going there and the smells, other dogs, etc. the more easily you will be able to get her attention and the less likely she starts barking. There was one incident Millie humiliated me that I don't even want to speak of. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyoBC Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Aww, she'll be better next time. I'm glad it went ok though. Just have fun with it and do your best. It'll be fun I would love to have a place like that. That's funny!! Black Jack has that same toy. He loves it. It scares everyone because it looks liek a dead animal after it's beeb chewed on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 If it helps, I'm a trainer and I don't bat an eye about having to talk over barking when beginner dogs are concerned. I actually make a point of telling my students not to apologize for barking as the apology is often more disruptive than the dog. Of course, barking is the first thing we'll address in those classes where I do have a persistant barker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyoBC Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 At the stock clinic I went to last spring there was a BC that just wouldn't stop barking. The whole weekend, bark,bark,bark,bark, etc. I know the people that had him felt funny about it but I really didn't mind. Black Jack did his fair share of muffeled barking and whining too They all get excited. If barking bothers someone, don't let them work at a shelter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LJS1993 Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Hey, for one just having the guts to go out there and take on agility is cool. I wish I had the time to take Freckles out and give her some agility training. Second, I'm sure Riven's barking is just a part of the job for the trainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 One thing i have noticed with the BC when watching agility is a lot of them do bark. They seem to be so exitable and some bark whilst waiting to go on and then a lot bark doing the weaves etc. With Holly i haven't had the courage to actually go and train her properly yet. (I am quite a shy person and feel very uncomfortable being watched doing stuff so an agilty ring with people watching me and Holly freaks me out a bit). Anyway she does agility at home and when i take her to see other dogs doing it she doesn't take any notice and is very calm and quiet there. She just watches them. Her problem is when she is doing her agility at home and doing the weaves she barks all the time, the minute i say the word, she also does this with leg weaves so i know how annoying it can be Donna. I have tried the quiet command etc but she just gets so excitable when she does anything like that. The more you do it does not seem to make a difference. So i figure it may be a Collie thing with the barking. JMO. Keep going with her like others have put though and hopefully Riven will calm down a bit. I know though from Holly getting them to shut up isn't always that easy. Oh i am not trying to hyjack this thread but if anyone has any good tips on stopping Holly barking when she is training i would appreciate them. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clara Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 I don't know what your set-up is, or how much "down time" you have at class, but a crate has helped us out a lot, since Ling is also very vocal and pulls on her leash when she sees other dogs running. Before I purchased my fabulous agility crate, Ling was OUT OF CONTROL at class when it wasn't her turn. I could sit on the ground and put her in a bear hug to try to get her attention, and she would still be yelping and jumping toward the other dog out on the course. It was like this crazy "zone" she went into that I've never seen anywhere else. Nothing worked to even get her attention, not treats, not a squirt gun, nothing. But she's crate trained at home, so I finally just bit the financial bullet and bought a very sturdy (steel framed, not plastic pop up), but lightwight and foldable crate and made a space to set it up in a corner before class (and covered it as well). After Ling's run, while the instructor is talking, I reward Ling, give her some water, then pop her into her crate before the next dog starts. Then I just stand in front of the crate while watching the next dog and listening to what the instructor is saying. She was much, much better from the very start of crating. Now, she seeks her crate out after her run, or if I want her to stay out to work on some obedience, she's usually pretty calm. Mostly, I think it's just been a while so she's been desensitized to the other dogs (oddly she still gets very excited about the Standard Poodles), but the crate is a great quiet space for her in between runs. Sometimes she actually snoozes a bit. It's also nice to have her used to agility crating for trials, in case you ever want to compete, for many reasons. But, having been there, I feel your pain. It's awful when your dog acts like that, I know!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted August 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 It was great to meet you and Riven. She is a great dog and with a little work I think she will excel at Agility. This is from the trainer I met yesterday. Nice guy, and nice comments considering she acted so badly lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie&MeBC Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Aww, that's great for him to say. I doubt he was too concerned about the barking, as is obvious by his message to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsail Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 I totally understand on the barking thing. Both Jackson and his brother have the same behavior and they just feed off of each other. I never took Jackson to class because I was embarrassed by his barking. Plus, he has this high pitched yodelling whine thing that just makes your ears bleed. I took him to his first disc dog event (after being forced to back and get the dogs by the event organizers even after I told them about the barking problem) and he went nuts. But by the 2-3rd event he was mostly quiet and could easily walk around with me. I finally bought a soft sided travel crate and he hasn't made a peep in there since. I'm sure once Riven gets used to the other dogs she'll be fine. Jackson still barks at me when we run, but not while he is out in the crowd. Have fun and relax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 I'm glad that the trainer wrote you back. Apparently the barking didn't bother the trainer. I bet Riven soon tires of it. I bet she didn't bark when she was in the tunnel. Am I right? Once she gets going through the obstacles, she'll "turn on" and forget about the other dogs. Go, Riven, Go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Oh i am not trying to hyjack this thread but if anyone has any good tips on stopping Holly barking when she is training i would appreciate them. Thanks Having seen and helped a lot of people in this area with obedience (or lack there of!) on their agility dogs I find a few common denominators - Agility is self reinforcing, so imo the excess barking is either lack of mental control and/or stress, now stress can be either good or bad - those stressing up keep going those stressing down shut down sooner. Have you tried stopping, immediately, when she lets out the first bark? No matter what she is doing? Half way up the dog walk, wherever. And, strangely enough, a friend put a good bit of peanut butter in her boys mouth, let him run 2 obstacles, inserted more p'butter and did more. The moment he went to bark, she stopped, more p'butter and they are moving along now. She does have to remind him, stopping and a verbal reprimand is all it takes most of the time now. I see most of the dogs in this area that have no self control - no mental control. This takes time to teach a dog who is environmentally sensitive, not scared, just overly busy in seeing "everything". Here I agree that a crate is the best first option, but one needs to get away from that as well and have the dog learn mental control as quickly as possible. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 So my friends and I went to Rivens agility place. Riven was the only dog barking, whining, and being a general loudmouth. It was humiliating. The guy was talking and Riven was barking over and over and over. Its all positive, I couldnt correct her. It was embarassing. I had liver treats I baked last night and she just wouldnt shut up. I got frustrated (I know I know I shouldnt have) and ended up leaving before I wanted.... My positive obedience trainer was there, and she knew Riven had the issue with other dogs and made the comment "she's still pulling ya huh?" -- um no, I've taught her to act like a sled dog and I pretend to be a sled... good grief... Awww, she can't embarrass you! Hey, in times like this some think it is best to "just ignore the behavior". Some of them will subside or even extinguish, however, I have found that even if you give into it one way or another the dog is still "getting" attention - be it positive or negative, hence they win. I do have to question the comment from the "positive" obed instructor - while I know where the purely positive are coming from I don't agree with it. A dog needs parameters and information. If you can't show them, teach them and correct them then how do they learn from their mistakes? Now, I am not advocating beating the dog, but I do agree with a firm clear correction (collar scruff, verbal displeasure, ect..) This is part of relationship and leadership building. If Riven is "still" pulling I would go back and find the weak links and reinforce your foundation. Any activity you do with her should be fun, however, she should respect you. Once you are at that point, the learning curve and enjoyment will go way up! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 I do have to question the comment from the "positive" obed instructor - while I know where the purely positive are coming from I don't agree with it. A dog needs parameters and information. If you can't show them, teach them and correct them then how do they learn from their mistakes? Now, I am not advocating beating the dog, but I do agree with a firm clear correction (collar scruff, verbal displeasure, ect..) This is part of relationship and leadership building. If Riven is "still" pulling I would go back and find the weak links and reinforce your foundation. I obviously do not agree with it either. I am more of a correction sort of enforcer. However, I fail desperately when other dogs are around. I've also swiched from a choker to a normal buckle collar for this positive agility training. Something I refused to do for the obed. My friend suggested a bark collar that shocked her but I dont feel comfortable hurting her. I was in training with this positive obed trainer 6 weeks in advanced obedience (!), and the whole barking around other dogs was never helped. This has always been an issue and so I intentionally have avoided places with more than 1 or 2 dogs. Well, now I am paying for it. Maralynn... I wanted to say I appreciated your PM, I will answer it, I just havent had time to sit down and write it.. Im in a hurry now as it is. But I wanted to tell you I did get it and I thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 I do have to question the comment from the "positive" obed instructor - while I know where the purely positive are coming from I don't agree with it. A dog needs parameters and information. If you can't show them, teach them and correct them then how do they learn from their mistakes? Now, I am not advocating beating the dog, but I do agree with a firm clear correction (collar scruff, verbal displeasure, ect..) This is part of relationship and leadership building. If Riven is "still" pulling I would go back and find the weak links and reinforce your foundation. I obviously do not agree with it either. I am more of a correction sort of enforcer. However, I fail desperately when other dogs are around. I've also swiched from a choker to a normal buckle collar for this positive agility training. Something I refused to do for the obed. My friend suggested a bark collar that shocked her but I dont feel comfortable hurting her. I was in training with this positive obed trainer 6 weeks in advanced obedience (!), and the whole barking around other dogs was never helped. This has always been an issue and so I intentionally have avoided places with more than 1 or 2 dogs. Well, now I am paying for it. Maralynn... I wanted to say I appreciated your PM, I will answer it, I just havent had time to sit down and write it.. Im in a hurry now as it is. But I wanted to tell you I did get it and I thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosanne Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Have you ever tried a head collar (like a gentle leader)? Usually positive folks aren't offended by it and holding her head might make it easier to turn her head towards you and then "reward" the behavior. Even though you mechanically 'forced' her to do it, that might be enough to get her attention away from barking and onto you and cookies. As an agility instructor, I just wanted to state that I, personally, hate talking over barking dogs. That doesn't mean I kick them out or don't invite their owners back, it means that when we break to talk, I ask that they put their dogs up in a crate or the car, etc, so they are not being over-stimulated to the point of barking non-stop. A dog barking non-stop is, generally, not thinking very hard. . . Perhaps your isntructor wouldn't object to you putting her in a crate near the car or whatever where she can settle while he/she talks. All my dogs are excitable around agility equipment, and while they don't bark, they do have trouble holding still. When I attend a seminar/clinic/class etc with them I put them away between turns. I am generally a positive trainer, but I actively encourage my students to reprimand their dogs for senseless barking. Self-reinforcing behaviors DO NOT extinguish themselves without a little negative 'punishment'. Which usually escalates from a "no" to a "KNOCK IT OFF" to covering the crate, to putting them in the car, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Thanks for your advice Karen. Never thought of giving her something to have in her mouth. I will have to try that. She isn't barking all the time it just seems that when she enjoys something like even weaving through my legs she wags her tail and gets excitable. Which is great but she has to let out a bark too. She stops barking when she isn't doing the movement. The main thing she barks at whilst doing actually is the weaves as she does it in the outside weave poles too. I was thinking of changing my word *weave* as i think she has formed a habit of barking at the word. Mind you she also does the same bark whilst we are playing ball sometimes while she is waiting for me to throw it. I therefore don't think it is stress in a bad way more happy excitement. She does stop the bark if you tell her to be quiet and stop what you are doing with her but the moment you say weave and show her where to weave she has to woof. Anyway i might try giving her a biscuit actually and get her to either chomp it whilst weaving or use it to entice her to see if that might get her out of the habit. I love to see her happy but i do wish she could do these things a little less vocally! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 BTW Donna don't know if you have tried one before but i always use a halti harness for Holly. She is quite a sturdy girl and although she walks really well most of the time, when she see's another dog on a walk that she knows she can go back a step and pull. With the harness i have full control of her and i use the halti training lead with it. Usually it is as a long lead attached to the bit at the back but if she gets excitable i can also attach to the bit under her collar. Halti do a headcollar too like the gentle leader Rosanne mentioned. Just a thought as although Holly is quite good now (most of the time) she did have her pulling moments and i don't know how i would have been as confident out and about with her as she is quite stong without it. Don't know whether it will help though with your problems with Riven around lots of dogs but thought i would mention it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyByNight Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 I don't know if you've tried this or not, but what about getting her good and tired beforehand? A jog, a game of fetch, etc., something to burn off some steam before moving into such a stimulating situation. I used to do this with my German Shepherd when we were taking agility, and it at least took the edge off. I would also play tug games with him so that he could vent his frustration while we waited, and "watch me" was heavily reinforced. Might she be more inclined to pay attention to you if you had a ball or toy as a reward instead of food? My dog was never that excited for cookies, but would do anything for his ball. Unfortunately, we had to quit agility as he developed the habit of finishing a run and silently continuing on to try and attack the nearest dog in line. It doesn't sound like your dog wants to go after the other dogs so much as she's hyped up, so exercise and frustration games (tug, etc.) might help. Good luck! ETA: Corrections did nothing for my Shepherd but to make him yelp, then escalate his frustration (and this was on a prong collar). They may or may not do anything for your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 -- um no, I've taught her to act like a sled dog and I pretend to be a sled... good grief... Ok I just laughed at the top of my lungs in the middle of work and everyone looked at me like I was crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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