how old to spay

[campdoorag]

my vet wants to spay my pup when she is 8 months or before her first heat. will spaying that early affect her growth or effect her health as she ages? somehow it makes me think of the repercussions of a hysteroctomy on a young girl before her first period! do dogs get osteoperosis?

 

thanks

diane

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I'm not sure about the health implications for dogs, but your comment about the hysterectomy got my interest. I had a hysterectomy at 31. I didn't have those problems because I insisted on keeping my ovaries. I wonder if dogs can keep their ovaries? Would it keep them from getting pregnant but provide them with the benefits of the hormones?

 

AK Dog Doc, can you answer that?

[AK dog doc]

1) Dogs do not get clinically significant (if any) osteoporosis as a result of spaying, or else every older spayed bitch would be getting fractures all the dang time (and at a greater rate than either unspayed females or male dogs of the same age).

 

2) If you left the ovaries, they'd still go into heat, still attract males, still attempt to breed (which might result in injury to the bitch, depending on the altered anatomy), still have the risks of ovarian cancer and mammary cancer, and could be prone to a stump pyometra (if any uterine tissue remains, they could develop infection in the residual uterine stump. This could lead to peritonitis, a life-threatening complication.) There's a reason it's a no-no to leave behind ovarian fragments when spaying.

 

Bear in mind that humans cycle every 28 days on average, and dogs, every six months on average. Dogs are NOT small hairy people. The hormonal exposures (and therefore the hormonally-dependant consequences) are quite different.

 

Every decision has consequences. You have to pick the risks you prefer, and live with the consequences thereof. The subject of what age to spay has, IIRC, already been covered on the Boards. If you use the "search" function, you can probably find it - unless I'm hallucinating about that.

[OurBoys]

Dogs are NOT small hairy people.

 

They aren't?!?!? Oh, dear. JJ! Jake! Boys, we have to sit down and have a talk. There's something I have to tell you.........

 

 

Just teasing.

[campdoorag]

thanks doc, i am a new member and did not know of the search function. i had read through the first 10 pages of the health/genetics archives and did not see any thread on spaying age.

-diane

[juliepoudrier]

Another difference between dogs and humans is that a dog goes through a false pregnancy (physiologically) after every heat. Humans obviously do not. IMO, the advantages of an earlier spay (before the first heat) outweigh the risks (unless you have a very promising young working dog that you wish to keep intact until she's proven, but then in that case you're taking a calculated risk that the benefit gained to the gene pool by keeping her intact until proven is greater than the risks of keeping her intact--increased risk of certain cancers, pyometra, unwanted pregnancy, etc.).

 

J.

[sweet_ceana]

We didn't spay Ceana until 14 months because we wanted to make sure all of her growth plates were closed. I have had a past experience with a cat nutered extreamly young and he had many problems that the vet and i had a hunch were due to a extreamly young snip-snip. With that said it was a desicion that we felt was right for us and Ceana and may not be what many others would choose to do. The "correct" age to spay a dog isn't written in cement so it is a very personal decision. Either way the most important thing you have to do when it comes to the age of spay is make sure she doesn't get pregnant. We waited later for the spay, but we also made the commitment to be so diligent our dog might as well have been wearing an inpenatrable chastity belt. My best advice is do a lot of research and then weigh the options. Make a decision that will keep your baby puppy free and healthy.

[juliepoudrier]

I think we must remember that many owners aren't terribly responsible when it comes to keeping an in-heat female away from amorous males. Witness the recent discussion about the "accidental" breeding on these boards. Personally I've not seen noticeable differences between dogs neutered at 6 months before their first heat or those neutered a little later (I have both in my pack). We are not talking about infant (8 weeks or so) sterilization here, although my sister had two shelter cats who were spayed at that age and they lived full healthy lives. But just as with Sweet Ceana's comments, that's just anecdotal "evidence." The most important thing, as SC pointed out, is that if you *can't* make the commitment to keep your youngster from getting bred during a first or subsequent heats, then it's probably best to spay before the first heat. You can even spay during a first heat--it will just be more costly because of the increased bleeding issues. You must educate yourself about the risks and benefits of spaying at 6 months or spaying later, and when you do so, remember that a 6-12 month old pup having puppies is a HUGE risk to both dam and pups.

 

J.

[bc4pack]

FWIW, I have a female who's FIRST heat was at almost 22 mos. and she cycled 1x/year. She was bred on her 3rd heat (one litter). Her daughter came in season at 7 mos. (surprise,surprise !!!) and spayed as soon as my vet felt comfortable doing it (as she was going out). No worries about the rest of the litter.... all speutered, as PSmitty likes to say

Mama was spayed a month or so after pups were weaned .

[Rosanne]

It boggles my mind that people allow in-heat females to "accidentally" be bred. I just can't imagine such a thing.

 

I waited until my spayed female was 2, actually to spay her. BUT I have an active agility schedule - I wanted to A) not conflict with an agility trial she was set to compete in make sure her growth plates were closed BECAUSE I am a competitive agility person and C) she was actually scheduled to be spayed right around 18/19 months old but the darned dog came in heat again. My vet advises to wait 6-8 weeks afterward (increased swelling or something? and he KNOWS we are responsible) to spay. Well it ended up taking longer because of my crazy schedule, but having an intact female just makes it really hard to do agility all year. And her first 2 heats were FIVE months apart!!! Yikes!!!

 

My younger female is not quite 14 months, and I'm waiting to see with her, how she turns out. But once again, there's pretty much ZERO chance she'd "accidentally" meet up with a male, and in fact her breeder would be VERY angry if such did happen! I'd be beaten half to death, I think!

[Guest WoobiesMom]

What's the connection between age of speuter and growth plates closing? I haven't heard about that before. Do you have them x-rayed to see when they're closed? Does it make a big difference in agility or is it safe to start that training around 18 mos? I'm interested in doing agility with Woobie (who was neutered before 5 mos.) but am not sure about this growth plate thing.

[juliepoudrier]

Woobies Mom (and anyone else with similar concerns),

If you look in the top right corner of the screen, you'll see a search button. If you search this forum on something like "growth plates" you'll pull up all sorts of past discussion on early vs. late spay/neuter and growth plates, cancer, etc. (I know you will because I just did it.) In fact, the OP may wish to do the same to find all sorts of information and links to previous discussions as well as links to independent studies on some of these concerns. This is one of those topics that come up over and over again, and often good information that has been posted in the past is not repeated.

 

J.

[campdoorag]

after doc's post, i got quite familiar with the search mode, and stayed up way past my bedtime. however, i sincerely appreciate everyone's posts. with respect to not being deligent in keeping the dam not breed, the epidemic of unwanted dogs, cats... whatever, in this country is tragic, and indicative of how self-centered our culture has become. there is a profound moment in the word responsibility, for me, it is the ability to responsibility. so many people have all but lost that ability.

 

and "reddy fox" will be dressed (i got that term last night researching in the search mode), as scheduled!

 

-diane

[Tassie]

My 2 cents worth. I totally agree it's a trade-off between the possibility of slightly different growth patterns (especially for pediatric spay/neuter) and the problems of keeping an intact female safe from being accidentally mated. For me, with no intentions of ever breeding, it's been a no contest. That said, I wait till about 7/8 months (with fingers crossed), just to get a bit more growth in - and a little longer with a male (I like them to be lifting their leg - makes toileting before trialling a lot easier!)

 

I delayed jumping training with my dogs anyway, to let them gain some musculo-skeletal maturity. I compete in Agility, and have to say I haven't seen any problems - or in other dogs competing here.

[mobcmom]

6 months

[Lenajo]

Knowing your bloodline helps too, and being aware of how many intact dogs your dog will be exposed too.

 

The former because most lines will run a typical pattern of growth and reproductive maturation - my dogs for example, rarely, if ever, come into season before 14 months and my males are still squatting to urinate at 18 months. Muscle maturation is late with them as well - might be because they are raw fed, but it's also genetic.

 

The latter...first, obviously with little intact dog exposure there is less risk of accidental matings, but also the more girls your girl is around that are in season, the more girls your boy gets a sniff of...the quicker those hormones "wake up". A friend works in a reproductive vet clinic and says this definately happens!

 

The issue with waiting on females is less about growth plates (growth plate closure is determined by testosterone levels I believe, not estrogen, so spaying would only increase the speed of closure. This is why pediatric neuters have longer, less dense long bones than intact or late nuetered males) and more about full maturation of the thyroid/immune system/ genitourinary tract. Too early spayed and there is greater risk of hypothyroidism, incontinence, and some immune issues. "Too early" is realtive though, once you get past 6 months or more for a pet dog. Sport and working dogs, imo, too early is probably before at least 10 months - gets really bloodline and need specific then. The CCI (canine companions for independence) organization has found that spaying and neutering before 1 year increasing their training failure rate by 50% - the dogs don't mature right, and don't train up properly as assistance dogs. Again, those are *working* dogs...a retention of a bit of puppy nature is ideal in many pets.

 

The ideal time to spay is right before the first heat (this per thyroid/immune/hemotology veterinarian specialist Dr Dodds information) but its very hard to time that. If they do come in heat, you need to wait at least 3 months post the start of it to spay them in the lowest hormonal surge of anestrus.

 

I will say that the greatest part of the decision should be about whether or not you can prevent an accidental mating. And it should be discussed, with the whole family if needed, what will have to happen if you fail at that. Sometimes discussing the concequences (whelping an adolescent dog, aborting a litter) is a real kicker is helping people make up their minds if they truly can, or can't, handle the responsibilities of a heat cycle.

[BC-Liz]

I got mine (male and female) altered at 6 months on the dot. They're siblings so I didn't want any accidental 9 toed BC's to be born. The only thing I've heard about for growth plates if you shouldn't run/jump your dog until they're a year old. A brisk jog is alright but all out running can hurt them. Both of them grew to be almost 50lbs and tall for BC's so getting them altered that early didn't have much of an affect on their growth.

 

The reason most people get their dogs altered at 6 months is because most go into heat around 7 or 8 months. I asked a vet about it and they said that the idea is to get the dog spayed before their second heat unless you are going to breed the dog. A dog is more suseptable to the various cancers if they are left unaltered long enough to reach their second heat unless they get pregnant later in life. Does that make sense? So either spay before 2nd heat or plan to breed or the dog is more likely to get cancer.

 

Hope that helps.

[Lenajo]

Gently, not trying to be mean...but please, though the breeding between littermates is not recommend except by very prepared and experienced breeders, it is not a 9-toed issue or "incest". These are not people, and there are a number of breeds, of many species, that were created with less individuals than 9. Lets not perpetuate myth and misunderstanding as part of a great conversation. Inbreeding is not for the faint of heart breeder, but it is not taboo or absolute inevitable disaster either.

 

Back to topic.

 

The issue with neutering early is that they get *taller* not smaller. The growth plates of males close later because full male development does not turn on the testosterone - which turns off the growth. Longer growth means less dense growth, which can result in an increased risk of bone cancer and injury.

[Liz P]

And on the topic of growth plates... They are NOT all closed by a year of age. Depending on the breed and the bloodline there are plates that may not be closed until the dog is almost 4 years old. The most important growth period for the hips is, in most dogs, between 6 and 10 months of age (why HD shows up as a slight limp then goes away once the dog is done growing). The period for elbows is a few months later. Realistically, dogs should not be jumping before 2.5 years old, when their majority of the plates are closed AND the muscle development has caught up with the bones so that the muscles can support the joints.

[Lenajo]

Liz is there any research by size or breed to estimate when growthplates are done?

[Rosanne]

Jumping is not as hard on a dog, IMO, as flat-out running is. I know several dogs who are sound for low-medium jumping, at regular agility speed, but who will come up lame if allowed to run all-out in a field.

 

Some agility people get their dogs X-rayed to see if the major growth plates are closed, and begin jump training at that time. Dogs aren't completely finished growing till about 3 or 4 but the majority of the growth after 14 months or so is usually more of the filling out/muscling up/deepening chest type. I've not heard of dogs injuring growth plates after about 14 months. . .

I do know a dog who fractured a growth plate at about 8 months though (in the backyard running/playing, not even doing agility)

 

I think growth plate closure and when to do what is just an issue that not everyone will agree on, just like when to spay!

IMO if you're not planning a super-tough sport/working career, there's no real reason not to spay between 6-8 months. Or at least by 10 months.

[Lenajo]

I think you probably have to weigh how the dog runs/jumps/acts. For example some dogs need to be kept off the contact equipment until they are mature (too much shoulder pounding), but could handle moderate jumping. Wild speed runs - again, depends on the dog and the terrain. I wouldn't consider letting my 10 month old be plowed through the wet sand with my co-trainers retrievers and aussiesa th beach because it's too hard on her, even though she likes it. But flat out running with my other collies over grass is fine. It's a judgement call. A pup should never go past the point of tired and be completely exhausted.

 

I agree, most medium size pets like BCs are fine being spayed by 10 months. Males I would wait a bit longer, as long as they weren't spreading their genes about LOL

[Liz P]

Liz is there any research by size or breed to estimate when growthplates are done?

 

You can look up ranges in books on vet orthopedics. I have one around here somewhere that lists all the major growth plates that dogs commonly injure and includes the age they usually close. They typically don't list many breeds but break it down by the size of the dog.

 

I am just tired of people waiting until the dog is a year old and using it as an excuse to really train their dogs hard. A year old still a teenager, not a fully mature adult. People are still overlooking how critical full muscle development is to support their dog's joints. Bones are only one part of the equation. There should not be pressure on people to get lots of titles on their dogs so young. A sound dog can work, or compete in sports if that is your thing, well past age 10 if they are not run into the ground when young.

 

Age to neuter is still very controversial because we are getting new evidence all the time about the side effects of early neutering. My personal belief is that bitches should be neutered before their first heat cycle if they are pets.

 

Wendy, if you send me an e-mail I can send you the pdf version of an article on the health effects of neutering that I think you will find very interesting.

[Rosanne]

I should add that I don't consider 1 year old enough to do hard training - while I think 14-15 months is old enough to begin contacts/jumps/etc (I don't do ANY contacts/weaves till 14 months or so, and I keep all jumps at 12 or 16 till around then), and even though I do show them at 18-20 months, most of my training is short skill type stuff, and I don't train them hard till they're 2 or so. I also don't bring an international-potential dog up to 26" till they're around 2 for the muscle AND mental development. But MOST people would never need to make a decision like that!!!

 

I'll put it this way, my 14-month old does 16" jumps, a down ramp for the dogwalk that leans on a table, has been over the a-frame exactly twice, at about 4.5feet high, and just started 2by2's for the weaves. I expect to show her starting next February, where I expect she will still be training no more than once or twice a week.

 

There's really no harm in letting a dog mature, IF you actually let the dog mature.

 

Sadly I know quite a few agility people who are subscribing to the new theory of "jump a dog high or don't jump him at all" which makes no sense to me. So I see 8-month old pups hopping over 22" jumps. Drives me nuts. They'll always say "I only do it once in a while" but that's all it takes!!

[Lenajo]

I'm as slow pushing my dogs are my preferred lines are growing up - so we suit each other well

 

I also don't understand the urgency to get, and stay, at full height jumps. You would never do that with horses, and its well understood there that you set jump style and build athletic skills on low jumps grids and also with flatwork. Why would it be any different with dogs?

 

Was at a dog camp years ago where the instructor, a huge well known agility guru and author, went on and on about letting dogs develop slowly. Then she gets out her 14 month old pup and shows how he has perfect contacts and jump style, and makes a comment that it takes "300 repetitions before you even start to get a perfect a-frame". Slow?? er where? Puh-lease. Then we find out this is her 4th dog that needed ocd surgery. She blamed breeding, but all I saw was 4 different hurt dogs, from for different breeders, with the same owner/trainer. The common denomintator is....

 

Liz I'll pm you.

 

Rosanne why trial a 20 month old dog in agility who still needs training? That seems rushed to me - the opposite of what you are saying.