Is it possible?

[AV8DRVR]

Hi,

 

First post here, I'm trying to decide if a bc is right for me. Here is my situation, I am a Marine pilot getting ready to deploy so getting a dog is more on the 8 to 9 month time horizon. By then I will have a 1 1/2 y/o and a 4 y/o. I live in a suburb type area, and there are plenty of places to run the dog. I normally work about a 7am-630pm day, so I can run with the dog in the morning and be home at lunch to play. My wife is stay at home and our oldest will be doing pre-school type stuff during most of the morning.

 

I really like bc's and am excited them. It's just that everything I've read says that they are bad with children. While the bc's that i've been around have definitely been very high energy, none of them have tried to corral my kids.

 

Are these dogs that only people with ranches and sheep should have? Or can an active family with a couple of kids swing it?

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Scrtchr

[bettilu]

Hi,

 

First post here, I'm trying to decide if a bc is right for me. Here is my situation, I am a Marine pilot getting ready to deploy so getting a dog is more on the 8 to 9 month time horizon. By then I will have a 1 1/2 y/o and a 4 y/o. I live in a suburb type area, and there are plenty of places to run the dog. I normally work about a 7am-630pm day, so I can run with the dog in the morning and be home at lunch to play. My wife is stay at home and our oldest will be doing pre-school type stuff during most of the morning.

 

I really like bc's and am excited them. It's just that everything I've read says that they are bad with children. While the bc's that i've been around have definitely been very high energy, none of them have tried to corral my kids.

 

Are these dogs that only people with ranches and sheep should have? Or can an active family with a couple of kids swing it?

Cheers,

Scrtchr

[bettilu]

oops sorry about that....let me actually post something now! We had a BC when our children were very little (around 4, 5) and he was awesome with them. We never had a problem with him nipping at them or anything. He did "herd" them (for lack of a better word), but by that I just mean that he was a close constant companion for them.

 

Of course all dogs are different, but I think that with young children that you should definately get a puppy so that they can grow up together....that might make a difference.

 

We have a B/C now and he is also great with small kids (of course mine are 18,19 now) but he has interacted with my niece with no problem whatsoever (she is 5).

 

Sounds like you will be able to give plenty of exercise, so in my opinion, a B/C might be a good fit for you. They are great dogs and smart too!

 

Good Luck and thank you for your service!!!!!!!!!!!

[WyoBC]

I think A BC would fit into you life pretty good. It sounds like you could give one the excrise he would need. Although they need more than just an hour of hard running then put them up. But with you DW at home I'm sure he would get lots of playing. BC's really arn't bad around kids. You need to look for one that is maybe around a year or two old and is already good around kids. Then you won't have to teach him to. There's some really good BC rescues in NC. I'm sure they could get the right one for you. Here's a link to the CBCR

[AV8DRVR]

Thanks for the replies. I was afraid that I was going to get a resounding "NO!" I've looked at both rescues and puppies, and I am not totally averse to getting a rescue. I just think that a puppy from day 1 around the kids might be easier to acclimatize (sp) around the kids. I understand about the not "putting them up" after some running. I guess the run is just for the physical side of their work. I will have more time to work their mind as well.

 

As far as the rescues, I've seen the cbcr. I assume that it is updated regularly? Again, I am just doing the foot work right now. The earliest I think this will be able to happen will be April 08. Luckily the military isn't stuck totally in the stone age, I hear that I will have internet over there. So, I will be able to keep in contact with the wife quite regularly as well as check out bc stuff! It kind of turned into an obsession much to her chagrin. Thanks for the help

 

Cheers

 

Scrtchr

[mbc1963]

On the other hand...

 

If you get an older, adopted dog, you can get a pretty good idea of how the dog is with children right away. Not all dogs have the high drive of the typical BC - mine is quite content to sleep most of the day after 2 good walks. And not all of them want to herd kids all the time. You may find a rescue who is very good with kids but had to be rehomed for one reason or another.

 

GOod luck!

 

Mary

[AV8DRVR]

Rescue is definitely an option. I'm kind of leaning toward the puppy since I will be able to mold it from a very early age and I sort of just like puppies. I know it's a selfish and silly reason, but I can't discount it. I also forgot to mention that we have a cat. If you have a cat, how does your bc get along with it.

[vickim]

I adopted a 10 yr old dog, and she's fine with the 3 year old child she is exposed to every day--and you know how rough a 3 year old's love can be! (On the other hand, the same dog hates puppies--it all depends on the dog).

 

I always push for rescues, especially the older dogs. Older dogs ahve a distinctly formed personality, and rescue groups usually have an excellant idea of what the dog needs and can tell if it will fit into your home or not.

 

Good luck!

[AV8DRVR]

I hadn't thought about the fact that the rescue people would know the personality of each dog. That would definitely be a great aspect for rescues. Why do I get such a negative vibe from the rescues though? I feel like I'm not up to snuff for them unless I'm a person who works from home, can spend 25 hours a day with the dog, and own a ranch with a 100 acres. None of these which I can do. I'm probably just reading too much into them though.

 

 

cheers,

 

Scrtchr

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Hey neighbor! My brother in law served in the Marines for quite a while. Le Jeune?

 

I would strongly, strongly recommend adopting a mature dog over getting a pup, in your situation. And not just because I'm a rescuer myself, lol. A big part of what makes a dog end up unsuitable for families with kids is genetic rather than the environment they grow up in. There's a huge variety within the Border Collie breed in that respect, and it's very hard to tell what you are going to get ahead of time, even if you know what you are looking for in terms of pedigree. That's why you hear such widely varied stories about whether they are good with kids. It's like the girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead. When they are good, they are very very good, but they are bad they are awful . . .

 

A rescue group can also work with you to find the type of dog you need in terms of exercise needs and so forth. You won't know that stuff ahead of time with a pup.

 

Besides CBCR, there is a group in South Carolina that is within reach of you, so your options are pretty wide open. And no, most of the time those web sites are not kept up to date. The best thing to do is contact these groups directly and start talking to someone. Many times dogs come in that never even make it on the web site - usually the ones suitable for families with small children, with modest exercise needs, that have some training already . . . .

 

Good luck!

[MaryP]

Of course all dogs are different, but I think that with young children that you should definately get a puppy so that they can grow up together....that might make a difference.

 

I tend to disagree with this. When you get a puppy, it's a crap shoot. You never know what you are ultimately going to be getting in a dog. Even puppies that grow up with children can be nippers as adults. Plus, puppies grow up in about a year (though not fully mature for about 3 years) and children take several years to grow up. So, it's not like both will be maturing at the same rate (i.e., your toddler will still be a toddler when your puppy is an adult). Whether or not a particular bc will be good with your children depends partly on the way you train and shape his behavior and partly on his genetics. The genetics part you can't change. When you adopt an adult dog, especially one from a rescue, you will have the benefit of already knowing whether the dog would be good with kids. The rescue will be able to match a dog with the right temperament to your situation. Also, I'm wondering how your wife feels about this since she is going to be responsible for the puppy for a big part of the day every day. Is she as excited about this as you? Puppies are a lot of work and I for one would not want to be trying to manage a 4 yo and 1 1/2 yo AND a bc puppy at the same time. But, that's just me. Raising my puppy without having the extra responsibility of young children was plenty enough work for me, LOL! And though it's true that you can somewhat mold a puppy's behavior, there's some things that are just inherent and there's little you can do to change them. I got my young bc as a puppy and spent a lot of time training him and "molding" his behavior. But, he is a pretty high strung dog and that is just who he is. He's obedient and very smart and I love him very much, but he would probably not be a good dog for a family with children. On the other hand, I have another bc that I also raised from puppyhood and he has a very different personality and would probably be fine in a family with young children. Just some things for you to think about.

[rosefarm]

I think you can definitely do it. Here's my experience. We have a 6 and 8 year old, and adopted Lily 1 year ago now. she was 4 month old and had the perfect temperment for a family with kids, though she was a little bit too rough for my nephew and niece who were 1 and 3 at the time, but they do not have pets over there, so a wiggly big pup was a little hard for them. With younger dogs, there is an advantage that exposing them to kids is socializing them, which is definitely good.

 

We had tried to adopt a year old standard collie mix, and he very obviously was not kid friendly, he didn't want to be petted by them, when they ran, prey drive kicked in big enough that he big my then 7 year old hard enough to leave a bite mark bruise right where his kidneys were. I didn't think we could risk that.

 

However, these rescue groups have many dogs who have been exposed to children, and would probably be able to find one that doesn't need to be run every minute of every day, likes a good game of fetch, and likes to have a belly scratch at every opportunity. As I'm sure you will hear in the near future, all pups are an unknown quantity.

 

 

Also, keep in mind, that while my dog is WONDERFUL with kids, my 8 year old son, still manages to try and teach Lily some naughty behavior, and he's a really good kid in general and with animals, even with lots of supervision. An older dog might work a little better with young ones learning how to treat animals provided he/she had the right personality.

 

For what its worth, good luck!

--Denise

[AV8DRVR]

Thanks for the info on the rescues. Irena, Semper Fi, I am in Cherry Point (pretty close to Lejeune) What age range should I be looking for? Or does that even matter. Is the rescue org in sc the phoenix rescue? I wish that I could get one now, I guess I have to practice delayed gratification, something I am not great at. Are there any places close to ENC that you can do bc specific activities?

[ErinKate]

Welcome to the boards!

BCs can either be your best friend, or your worst nightmare! The nightmare part is usually more based on activity rather than aggression. Make sure your wife is 100% ready for it! Sounds like her hands are pretty full as it is.

Certainly go for adoption. Don't rule out an older dog. Mine were both 2yrs when we got them home and they are great!!!! THey both easily adapted to our situation.

They are a great breed, just be ready! lol

Keep us posted!

[MaryP]

Why do I get such a negative vibe from the rescues though? I feel like I'm not up to snuff for them unless I'm a person who works from home, can spend 25 hours a day with the dog, and own a ranch with a 100 acres.

 

Why do you say this? Have you ever worked with a rescue group before? I do rescue and I've yet to adopt a dog to someone who works from home, spends 25 hours a day with a dog, and lives on a ranch with 100 acres. Most of the people that I adopt dogs to have day jobs and live in suburban or urban settings. Just because rescues have applications that ask a lot of questions about your current living situation doesn't mean that they are only looking for people who live on farms or are independently wealthy and can spend 24/7 with their dog. They ask a lot of questions because they are trying to make sure that they match the right dog with the right family. I've adopted dogs to people with toddlers and I've also refused to adopt dogs to people with toddlers. It all depends on what is best for the dog.

[AV8DRVR]

Well as for my bride, she is up for it. She is finishing her masters in Dec, yet another reason that we are waiting. She definitely has her hands full.

 

As far as the vibe I get from the rescues...It probably stems from me reading about how border collies are not for people with kids and then seeing the adoption application. I know that we could put up a good home for the dog, I just get concerned that the rescue folks wouldn't think so. However, I haven't actually spoken to a person at a rescue so I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

Can you rename rescue dogs?

 

Scrtchr

[OurBoys]

I agree with going the rescue route. For the most part, they're already housebroken, spay/neutered and UTD on their shots. By adopting an adolescent or mature dog you also don't have to deal with needle-sharp puppy teeth.

 

The one drawback you might have with a rescue is not being able to pick a dog going by it's looks. Rescuers are more concerned with matching personalities. We adopted both of our boys thru rescue services and will always go that route. Fitting in is more important to us than looks. Besides, as cute as puppies are (I love looking at everyone's puppy pictures), they don't stay that way. Don't get me wrong. I think we have a couple of good-looking boys. I just believe we're lucky because they are also a perfect match to our family.

[OurBoys]

Can you rename rescue dogs?

 

Scrtchr

 

Absolutely. Both of ours got new names when they came here. New home, new memories, new name.

[Pat W.]

As a foster home for Mid Atlantic BCR AND a parent who got their first border collie when their child was 1.5 yrs old I would say do lots of research make sure you really understand that this is a breed that needs both mental as well as physical stimulation. We got Ashe 14 years ago, and although he and my son were inseperable best buds and still are 14 yrs later, we went through a period of "herding" and nipping. There were tears and torn clothing before we were able to train him that kids were not to be "herded" or nipped. We now have 3 border collies in a townhome, my husband and I work full time and both kids go to school. I have 3 different exercise needs Ashe 14 is just as happy to trot around after a ball as not, in his prime he was never "high drive" and happy with hanging with the kids all day, or playing ball or frisbee as well as weekly agility training/competition. Meg a rescue gotten at 4 mos when the kids were 9 and 6 was more active, needed more activity and structure, Whim a rescue gotten at 12 weeks is very high drive and needs exercise every day for at least 45 min - hour plus training sessions. I would strongly suggest going to rescue vs. breeder for a dog around 3-4 yrs old. As a breed bc's are active dogs well into their senior years, Ashe retired from competitve agility at age 13. Foster homes take into their own homes dogs that have come into rescue, evaluate them, socialize them, expose them to cats, kids, other dogs, strangers, loud noises...anything we can. We work on manners on and off leash, in and out of the house. In short please consider a rescue there are literally hundreds dying to become a good family member

[AV8DRVR]

Pat,

 

Well, I originally was leaning toward a puppy, but I think I am being convinced that rescue is definitely the way to go. 3-4 yrs old huh, I'm assuming most of the rescues would already be house broken and trained to sit, lie down, etc. IIRC border collies can be trained through out their life and don't necessarily fall into the "can't teach an old dog new tricks" category.

 

To All,

 

I really appreciate all the advice that you have given. Everyone has been extremely helpful.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Scrtchr

[Dixie_Girl]

Hey welcome to the boards! And a big THANK YOU for all you do.

 

I am with Phoenix Rising BC rescue. I have two girls right now that are 9 & 10. They are just the sweetest girls. The people looking to adopt them right now do not have kids, but are planning on them in a few yrs. I know the girls are fine with little kids. They have been around a couple of 3 yr. olds that shall we say, weren't always the gentlest with them. But because I know them, I feel confident in placing the girls with them. Remember, it is not just about training the dog to get along, it is also important to teach the child also. Your youngest will be 2 when you plan to get your dog and that is not too young to teach them the proper way to treat dogs. You just need to make sure the dog and child is supervised at all times. I would definitley go the adoption route first. A tried and true dog is much better to teach younguns on than a pup that has no sense! LOL Good luck. And thanks for putting so much thought into this.

[juliepoudrier]

Here's another vote for going the rescue route. You can easily find young dogs in rescue (~18 months seems to be very common), and it's true that the foster/rescue will have thoroughly evaluated the dogs in their care and so are more able to make the best possible match for you and your family. Among working dog folk at least, the saying is that a border collie doesn't reach its prime until it has as many years under it as legs (and some will add the tail too, so 4-5 years old), so even getting a dog at age 1-2 means you're getting a dog not fully mature (mentally anyway). Border collies can be a challenge, but if you make the right match, you will have the best dog you could ever hope for, and more.

 

You may also find that one just won't do you. I think many folks follow a route similar to mine, which was to start with a young adult rescue and add a pup later when I knew I was ready for the challenge. If your heart is absolutely set on a puppy, rescues get plenty of them too, but I think in a house with very young children a dog already known to be kid-proof would be worth its weight in gold. That said, just because a dog is good with children doesn't abrogate the responsibility of you and your wife to make sure that you teach the children proper respect for the dog. Even the most bombproof dog might eventually take exception (in the form of biting) to being constantly pestered or unintentionally (or intentionally) abused by a child (i.e., pulling hair or ears, falling on top of the dog while it's sleeping, etc.). One reason you hear so much about border collies not being good with children is because they have been bred to be reactive to movement, and many are also sensitive to sound--two things that are part and parcel of life with kids. I can't stress enough how important it is to train both children and dog to behave properly around one another. If the dog (especially a pup--and all pups do go through a horrible biting stage where no moving object--that is, your feet-- is safe from those razor-sharp teeth) is out in the yard with children and the children start running and making noise, it'll take a very special dog NOT to react. That doesn't mean there are dogs that won't, but it means that you and your wife will have to be proactive and consider what's going on and make sure you protect the dog and the kids from making a mistake you'll all be sorry for. With exceptional attention to detail by the parents (i.e., never leaving them alone together), pups can be successfully raised with children, but if you are a busy family, you just might find it easier to start with a young adult with a known personality.

 

As for rescues, yes, they do ask a lot of seemingly annoying and prying questions, and they may seem like they are making the process as difficult as possible, but keep in mind that they are dealing with animals who have already lost a home for whatever reason and they are doing everything in their power to be sure that when the dog is placed, it's in a situation that's best for the dog and one not likely to result in the dog being thrown away again. They are concerned, rightly so, about the *dog's* welfare. Some will be reluctant (or outright refuse) to place a dog in a family with small children. Again, remember, they have the dog's welfare at the top of their list. But if you can keep an open mind and a sense of humor, you'll do just fine.

 

A note on pups. I don't have children, but have socialized all of my youngsters extensively. All of them are still very leary of children. Doubtless that would be different if they lived with kids, but I just wanted to point out that all the socialization in the world won't make a kid-lover out of a dog that's just not wired to be one. As I stated before, I think you can successfully raise a pup with small children, but remember that the bulk of that will fall on your wife and it only takes a moment's distraction for bad things to happen. I'm not trying to be doom and gloom here--just pointing out the obvious probably.

 

On a final note, since this has gotten rather long, if you have a cat(s), a rescue will work with you to make sure the dog is good with cats. I've never had a dog with such high prey drive that I couldn't teach it to leave the cats alone. I also raise bantam chickens, and have successfully taught all my dogs (adults, adult rescues, pups) to leave the birds alone. My partner was quite amazed the other evening when he was watering his quail chicks, who have started to fly, and one escaped out the top of the pen. The dogs were all hanging around (they are very interested in the chicks and chickens--I call it "chicken TV" for the dogs), but when that little quail flew out and landed among them, not one made a move toward it--that's the result of a lot of time and effort on my part in training. For cats, I always am sure to have a dog-free cat zone in the house (a baby gate works well for this) so the cats can get away from the dogs if they just don't want to be bothered. So even if you end up getting a puppy, you can certainly train it to leave the cat alone. Like everything else in training, it just takes consistency and persistence (especially when dealing with a pup), and even adults that have never been exposed to cats can be trained to leave them alone.

 

FWIW, I have nine border collies. My first several were adult rescues (through rescue and by private adoption), then I added a pup and later another two adults (working dogs) and then three more pups (two of which are out of my best working dog, and all three of whom I expect to be my up and coming workers and replacements for the current workers as they age). I had cats (5 now) before I had the dogs, and the chickens came after, so I think I've experienced the full range of what one might expect from a border collie (I have at least one crazy in the group too! )....

 

Good luck in your search! P.S. I want to add my thank you to Dixie Girl's.

 

J.

[AV8DRVR]

I definitely think that teaching the kids about how to deal with animals. Both of our kids are great with our cat and our family lives in the area, they have labs and the kids behave quite well with them also. I am looking forward to adding a bc to our family and the time will come soon enough. I am not normally one to wait for the ever elusive "perfect" time, but right now is almost the worst time ever since I'm leaving.

 

@Dixie,

 

Is the Phoenix Rising website updated regularly? I'll be able to surf the world wide web while over there hehe.

 

Scrtchr

[juliepoudrier]

Scrtchr,

A member of Phoenix Rising is also a member of this board (screen name: Painted Ponies). Hopefully she'll see this thread and get in touch with you privately.

 

J.

[OurBoys]

AV8DRVR,

 

We adopted Jake through CBCR and he was never listed on their website. Neither was his brother.