Breeders Classified: A frustrated person's search for a BC pup

[patw]

Thank you all for welcoming me to this forum and responding to my questions about Border Collies.

 

I have one BC, a rescue, who was given away because he was too active, too energetic and too driven, adopted out, given away again for the same reason, adopted out again this time by a family with three BC’s, given away again. I finally got him. I love the fact that he is too active and too driven, so he will spend the rest of his life with me. He is so loving but extremely disobedient despite all the training by a local obedience trainer. A lady who is into herding told me that he is the exact opposite of “biddable” but I don’t mind because he is the most loving and affectionate dog I have ever known.

 

However I would like to get into herding and would like to acquire a border collie puppy who will make a good herding dog. I need your advise and suggestions on where I might be going wrong and what mistakes I may be making in my search for a pup. Since I am a novice and all my knowledge is derived from books about border collies and websites (rather than from practical experience that most of you have), I am pretty darned sure I am making more than a few errors, and I would like you all to point my mistakes out to me.

 

I have been to herding events and looked at many BC breeders and will classify them as below:

 

I. AKC breeders: No comments.

 

II. BC’s from Ranches and farms: These are Border Collies used on ranches and farms for day-to-day work on cattle and/or sheep. These dogs are usually accustomed to riding on the bed of pick-ups, are very, very dirty (LOL) but equally sweet and they are great at working. I love these dogs. But I see two problems. (1) When I visited some large ranches, I heard comments from ranchers like “my border collies were merely giving eye which is not enough to move cattle, so I added a bit of heeler and bred them again to border collies. Now my border collies are vicious and will bite any cattle.” This makes me reluctant to buy a BC from such ranchers. (2) Breedings are not planned and litters are thrown up at random and I hear jokes like “I am sure this pup had a red fox for its dad”. The farmers and ranchers also pay no attention to hip/elbows and CEA. I hear them say stuff like “Sure some pups get hip dysplasia but I put a bullet into those dogs.” Breeding for health is a last priority for this group.

 

III. BC’s from hobbyists: These are breeders who first buy border collies and then acquire 3, 4 or 5 sheep for their BC’s. The breeders seem to be web and internet sophisticated and when they hear about hip/elbows and CEA testing, they do the requisite tests but I have heard their dogs lack the genuine herding drive that BC’s from ranches and farms have. Some of these hobbyist breeders focus on color. Some focus on the sports market and breed for agility and flyball. This makes me reluctant to buy from this group either.

 

IV. The Elites: These would be the ones who win awards at top herding events and usually hold very prominent positions in BC organizations. It is difficult to get access to such people. They don’t normally reply to your emails and if they are always blowing you away, it is difficult to find the courage to talk to them. At herding competitions, they are always busy or surrounded by equally important people. And they won’t sell their dogs to a nobody like me.

 

V. The Inaccessibles: These would be good breeders in Scotland and equally inaccessible regions who are too far away for me to get a pup from.

 

 

Now I have been to herding events and talked to many breeders I met at these herding events but all of them seem to fall into one of the categories above. So I seem to have drawn a blank as all sources seem unsatisfactory. But like I said, as a novice, I am sure I am making more than a few errors in my search for a pup, and I would like you all to point my mistakes out to me. I need your advise and suggestions on where I might be going wrong and what mistakes I may be making in my search for a pup.

 

I would especially appreciate it if you can recommend SPECIFIC breeders of BC’s to me. My email address is A@B where A=patwilhendorf and B=gmail.com

 

Thank you!

[Sifreynir]

There are a couple of places here in Scotland that will export pups. Northern lights is one such breeder. We were going to get our pup from there, but opted for a more local farm bred pup...and a sweetie he is too

[patw]

There are a couple of places here in Scotland that will export pups. Northern lights is one such breeder. We were going to get our pup from there, but opted for a more local farm bred pup...and a sweetie he is too

 

Don't know how to say it but I feel uncomfortable buying from a foreign breeder without looking at the pup or the sire/dam. Still, thank you for that suggestion, and maybe I should consider foreign breeders seriously.

[concrete]

If you give your location I'm sure you will be pointed in the direction of some good breeders.

 

Kevin

[patw]

If you give your location I'm sure you will be pointed in the direction of some good breeders.

 

Kevin

 

Please don't feel constrained to suggest breeders in any particular location. I have a VERY large family and someone could easily pick up the pup from a breeder anywhere in the U.S.

[PSmitty]

Please don't feel constrained to suggest breeders in any particular location. I have a VERY large family and someone could easily pick up the pup from a breeder anywhere in the U.S.

 

Yeah, but you said above that you wouldn't feel comfortable buying from Scotland, without "looking at the pup or the sire/dam". So, it sounded like you wanted a breeder close enough to go visit in person, hence Kevin's question of where you're located.

[Sue R]

Don't know how to say it but I feel uncomfortable buying from a foreign breeder without looking at the pup or the sire/dam. Still, thank you for that suggestion, and maybe I should consider foreign breeders seriously.

 

AND

 

Please don't feel constrained to suggest breeders in any particular location. I have a VERY large family and someone could easily pick up the pup from a breeder anywhere in the U.S.

 

I'm getting a bit of conflict here. Either you do or you don't want to be able to meet the parents (isn't that a movie title or something?) and pup, or you don't. I would go with your first idea, that you would want to be able to see the parents "in action" and "in person", as well as meeting the pup that you would be bringing home.

 

Now, have you considered trying your "wild child" on stock? There are some very active dogs that, with a little age and some constructive outlet for their energy, intensity, and instincts can become excellent working dogs. Have you given him a try? If so, how did he do? The important thing is that he has a forever, suitable home with you but maybe he's got something worth checking out in the stockwork department, that might just help make him an all-around better companion as well.

 

As for your #1 - Most of us here would absolutely agree with you. Good decision on your part!

 

#2 - There are definitely farmers/ranchers who fit into one of your descriptions. There are also farmers/ranchers who are in group #4, the elite of Border Collie breeders, trainers, and trialists and they produce terrific, well-bred pups from proven, healthy parents.

 

#3 - Avoid some you might consider hobbyists in general, but some that you might categorize here have excellent dogs, train them well, trial successfully, and only occasionally breed but produce wonderful pups. Not everyone can afford the farm or ranch but possess the talent to select their dogs well, train well, and produce good pups in often very limited quantities.

 

#4 - I couldn't disagree more. I've met a number of folks who trial at the very top levels, with dogs that have won the National Finals, National Cattledog Finals, prestigious trials like the Bluegrass, etc. Some folks, like folks anywhere, are not friendly or outgoing. Most people I've met have been friendly, welcoming, helpful, and would consider a novice purchaser for a pup in the right circumstances - primarily where that person would have training from a well-qualified and experienced trainer/handler.

 

#5 - I wouldn't say folks from UK are inaccessible but there is a tremendous demand for well-bred pups/dogs over there, prices can be high and shipping very expensive, and just because they are breeding terrific dogs over there doesn't mean you can't get a more suitable, talented dog over here. I've scribed for some top US and UK judges, and my impression is that they find good quality dogs running over here, but that many of the handlers/trainers and dogs lack the experience like contract and full-time shepherds and dogs over there get on a routine, daily basis.

 

For some one just starting out, I wouldn't recommend going to UK for a dog/pup. There are plenty of good breeders over here producing nice pups. You might even do what many people suggest (and with good reason) - go to trials, meet people, talk to folks. Better yet, as you've not apparently been successful at making friends/contacts, volunteer to help at trials. That is one of the best ways to learn, to meet folks, to see who's running successfully and who handles their dogs well, and to introduce yourself to folks.

 

Consider something other than a pup. Once you've made contacts, let people know you'd be interested in a retired Open or ranch dog, or even a suitable started dog. Many good handlers are open to retiring dogs that can no longer do the hard work or Open courses regularly, but are still (as in horses) the best teacher a new handler could ever have (along with a good trainer). The horse folks say to pair a green rider with an experienced (schoolmaster) horse, and a green horse with an experienced rider. That wisdom can be adapted to stockdogs and new handlers, too.

 

Sorry to be so long-winded but I had to take exception to your statements. They may be your experience, but they certainly haven't been mine. Since I have no idea where you are located, I couldn't possibly make any breeder suggestions that would provide you the chance to see the parents in action and the facility where the pups were produced.

 

Best wishes in finding something suitable, and maybe in finding out that your little wild man might have some latent stockdog talents waiting to be discovered!

[MrSnappy]

I'm getting a bit of conflict here.

 

And I'm getting CountryBoy vibes *here*

 

Call me a skeptic.

 

RDM

[Jack & Co.]

I wondered the same thing, RDM.

[patw]

Sorry if I was a little confusing about picking up from a distant location.

 

- I would like me or a relative to visit the breeder first to look at the pup and the sire/dam

- This is possible only in the US

- I would also not like a pup to be shipped in the heat of the Summer from Scotland. Lufthansa does not fly pups in cargo over the Summer and if other airlines are doing it, that is probably not a good idea.

 

Another clarification. Puppyhood is the most wonderful time of a dog's life. Call me an unrealist or a romantic but I would like a pup not a proven, grown dog.

 

As to using my little terror on sheep, I am told he is "unbiddable" whatever that precisely means.

[patw]

Sifreynir - Thanks for the Northern Lights suggestion. I will seriously consider it if I can get no recommendations for breeders within the USA after this post. What is a good time to visit Scotland from the point of cheap airfares?

[Maralynn]

Something you should consider is that it will be a huge amount of work to train both the dog you have now and a pup. I would strongly recommend get some basic obedience training on your current dog before adding another one to the mix. In your other post you were worried about keeping one BC occupied at -50, so it would be a very good idea to have that figured out before you have 2 BCs to keep occupied.

 

Who told you your other dog was unbiddable? And why?

[patw]

Who told you your other dog was unbiddable? And why?

 

A lady originally from South Africa who now lives in UK (Scotland) and gives herding seminars in USA told me that. I attended her seminar. She was the one who said that after she saw my dog. As to why, I don't really know why she felt that way. Some others also told me exactly the same thing - all experts on either BC or sheep/cattle/farming.

[Ruger's Dad]

Here is a link to breeders all over the US. I purchased Ruger from one listed in Kentucky. I would go this route all over again if I couldn't find a rescue close by.

 

http://www.working-border-collie.com/breed...ectory07-06.pdf

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Some others also told me exactly the same thing - all experts on either BC or sheep/cattle/farming.

 

How come you know so many experts on "Border Collies and sheep/cattle/farming" but don't know anyone who falls outside all those unacceptable categories of AKC, farmers who don't care about health (?), hobbyists, and elites/overseas?

 

No trainer worth his or her salt would assess a dog's potential for stock work without seeing the dog on stock. That's exactly the quibble we have with kennel club people who think they can look at a dog and guess how well they'll work based on skeletal structure and coat texture. I've got a rescue right now who hardly knows people exist, he's in such a dissasociative state, but put him on stock and suddenly the world revolves around ME. It's all about context for these dogs.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy a pup, but honestly, the easiest way to get an "in" on this culture, and thus find a breeder you can trust and learn from, is to start with what you have now. I don't think there's a single person on here who started with the perfect dog - most of us got involved through a dog they adopted, or had as a pet, or a farm dog that needed more training.

 

By the way, soundness is quite important to most real hardcore farmers and ranchers I know. A farmer doesn't think about much else besides keeping his animals in optimum health. The dogs may have a few mats in their coats, and get their yearly vaccinations from the feed store - but most farmers would feel really sick if they put years of training in a pup and then had the pup come up lame or get a detached retina. Culling unsound dogs may not be Nice, but it IS the surest way to address unwanted health problems in a gene pool.

 

I'd rather get a pup from the guy who shoots dogs that don't come up to scratch for whatever reason, than from the hobbyist who does all the clinical testing possible. Fortunately, I don't have to choose. There's plenty of people in the middle who both pay careful attention to the soundness of their dogs as they train them, and also use clinical testing to fill in the missing pieces. More and more breeders are coming to realize that the two approaches complement each other very well to continue to further the breed as one that is both outstandingly sound and also with great depth in its gene pool.

[patw]

I don't have to choose. There's plenty of people in the middle who both pay careful attention to the soundness of their dogs as they train them, and also use clinical testing to fill in the missing pieces. More and more breeders are coming to realize that the two approaches complement each other very well to continue to further the breed as one that is both outstandingly sound and also with great depth in its gene pool.

 

That is exactly what I have been dying to hear. Since you know some excellent breeders, please post their names to me or email them to me. And I will buy from one of the breeders you suggest! The only breeder anyone has suggested is one from Scotland. I don't want to go to Scotland to buy. I want to buy here. Come on, there are surely great breeders in the U.S. too. Why is no one suggesting their names to me? This discussions is going all over the place and all kinds of questions are asked of me but what would be really helpful is if people suggest names of breeders they like and recommend to me. Please forgive me if I sound frustrated with this discussion but I am frustrated only because no one is recommending breeders to me. Thank you all.

[MrSnappy]

How come you know so many experts on "Border Collies and sheep/cattle/farming" but don't know anyone who falls outside all those unacceptable categories of AKC, farmers who don't care about health (?), hobbyists, and elites/overseas?

 

Because they are all posers?

 

???

 

RDM

[Eileen Stein]

Pat, I will be very frank with you. I am not recommending a breeder to you because your story doesn't make sense to me.

 

You seem to have made extensive contacts in the world of working dogs, including visits to ranches, attendance at trials and clinics, email, etc., and ruled out every category of breeder. It's very hard for me to understand how you can have personal contact with so many working border collie people and yet have to turn to strangers on a BB to find a good breeder.

 

You don't say what your goals are in "getting into herding," or what conditions you would be working under. I don't want to sound discouraging, but training a dog for livestock work is very difficult. You've ruled out an experienced dog -- it has to be a pup. That would mean a person without experience training a dog without experience -- not a promising situation. You already have a dog that you haven't been able to train in basic obedience. If I were you, I would train that dog first, and then think about "getting into herding" when you have accomplished that. If the only criticism that has been made of your current dog is that it won't mind you, fix that and then see what you have.

 

Finally, I don't understand why you are so coy about where you live. It could be that someone on the Boards lives near you. It could be that person could help you out a lot, both in finding a dog and training a dog. Why are you excluding the possibility of that happening by not telling us who and where you are? You don't have to post your street address, but you could post your general location. What's the name of the rescue group you got your current dog from? They must think very highly of you for taking and keeping such a difficult dog. What trials have you attended? What breeders have you talked to, or tried to talk to? I'm also somewhat curious about the lady from South Africa, because I don't know anyone of that description giving herding seminars in the US -- what was her name?

 

I do give referrals to good breeders, but I don't do it when I have reason to doubt that it would be a good placement for their puppy, and I have an uneasy sense that that is the case here. If you want to give us further information, fine. If not, well you've gotten excellent general advice on how to find a good breeder (from Sue especially) and you've got a list of breeders from the Working Border Collie. Good luck -- I hope this situation is better than the read I'm getting on it.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Why is no one suggesting their names to me? This discussions is going all over the place and all kinds of questions are asked of me but what would be really helpful is if people suggest names of breeders they like and recommend to me.

 

Because what you need is a trainer, not a breeder, and you won't tell us where you are located. We don't need a street address, just general region of a state, or even just a state.

 

We can't tell you what a good breeder would be for you. There's a huge amount of variety in the Border Collie breed. There's two ways to get the right pup for you. Wait until you know enough about the breed to know what lines you like. Or foster a friendship or two or three and go on their advice to match you with a breeder that's right for what you need and want from a pup.

 

Thus, I recommend you take your youngster to a trainer - one of those so-called "elites". Most of them take students. Give your dog a go and the trainer will either tell you your dog is worth continuing with, or will be most eager to help you locate a pup. Trust me on this one. I had a dog most trainers thought was hopeless, and I got lots of recommendations and offers to hook me up with a breeder who had this litter or that litter coming.

[patw]

I received several emails. Only one had a breeder suggestion - thanks to this person!!!!!

 

Here are my responses to the other emails:

 

>> Curious about who that South African lady is....<<

 

Her name is Janet Beale and she is one of the finest in the world.

 

>> Pat, you won't get any real helpful information on breeders. Most of the posters are women and they are all nasty uptight bitches wanting to form social friendships and they take their clue from the meanest ones at the very top of the hierarchy on the forum. These bitches and the forum are a shame to USBCC<<

 

Rob, I find your email highly offensive. I did get helpful information on the CD I had asked about and training tips. I don't appreciate you referring to women as "bitches"

 

>> No one will suggest good breeders. Know why? Because your dog will compete with their dog and they won't be winning at trials any longer. You are right, they will ask you all kinds of questions but that is because they want to fill the void and not provide any genuinely useful information <<

 

Hmm, if that is true, then the Border Collie will meet the same fate as the Collie. Eventually commercial interests will prevail and when commercial interest prevails, the breed is always hurt. I hope that won't come about!

 

>> Why don't you just go to UK and get a dog?"

 

I am sure that is quite unnecessary when there are great dogs in this country (if only someone will suggest me breeders).

 

>> The top members of your ABCA have bad breeding programmes. For instance, there is one ABCA board member who does not talk about health of his dogs on his web site and instead talks about colour, colour and colour. He does not even give his address - just a phone number with * area code. Buy from breeders here in the UK<<

 

Nigel, you wrote me a really long email but why did not not recommend a single breeder from the UK, huh?

 

>> The forum members are touchy about questions involving health and breeder recommendations. Eileen Stein keeps deleting such questions - see http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=12409. That is because all breeders in your country ignore health issues <<

 

I hope that is not true!!!!

 

*I deleted the area code because this is false and defamatory. The only ABCA board member with that area code does not have a website, but the casual reader of this thread would not know that.

--Eileen

[Alaska]

Please don't feel constrained to suggest breeders in any particular location. I have a VERY large family and someone could easily pick up the pup from a breeder anywhere in the U.S.

 

Pat,

 

Does your very large family by any chance include the Wilhendorf German Shepherd Kennel in Connecticut?

 

I think people are avoiding answering your question directly for a variety of reasons. For me, the biggest one is that I think you need to get a handle on your current dog before proceeding, and I say that for two reasons. First, I think most people here would agree that it is a mistake to take on the challenge of training a puppy before the other dogs in the house have at least a semblance of an understanding of proper behavior. Pups do learn from their elders, so if your present dog is still "extremely disobedient" (your words) when the pup arrives, it just increases the challenge for you.

 

Second, since you're going to need to learn a lot about training anyway, you might as well start with the dog you've got. Plenty of people here have taken in rescue BCs who were too much dog for their previous homes, and they had no choice but to learn how to turn them into polite members of society. I'm one of those people. As exhausting and frustating a process as it may have been, I think most of us feel we learned a tremendous amount from the experience and we're far better trainers for it. Perhaps there's more to the story than you have told us, but I have a hard time believing your current dog is untrainable. He may be independent or hard-headed or "the exact opposite of biddable", but that just means you need a few more tools in your toolbox in order to reach him.

 

Like Sue, I suggest that you give your current dog a bit more of a chance.

[patw]

Pat,

 

Does your very large family by any chance include the Wilhendorf German Shepherd Kennel in Connecticut?

 

Let's just leave any questions about my family out of this discussion please! Thanks for understanding!

[AK dog doc]

Just a thought, too, about the avantages of starting stock work with a trainer BEFORE getting a new pup... everyone has a different working style and different strengths and weaknesses as a handler - or so I've observed even in my short time in the BC working world. I know people who prefer a dog with more eye, for instance, or less; ones who want dog who is grippier and others who want one who is not. This does partly depend on one's aims with the dog (for instance, I know one handler who has a dog who is lovely on sheep, but the handler also has cattle. The dog in question is not willing to go in and tag the cattle when need be; this handler would prefer a grippier dog, actually, but other handlers of my acquaintance would prefer the less-grippy dog.) If you get started with an experienced trainer, they may be able to help point you to a line of dogs that might suit how YOU work - or at least suggest some things you might be looking for in a potential purchase. Moreover, if you do start with your "less than biddable" dog - (while you're hunting around for the right puppy, why not get some time under your belt?) - it may be that YOU - not just your coach - discover things that you do or don't want in your next dog. And/or in your next coach, as well... finding one you "click" with mentally and in terms of working style is helpful before you get your next pup, IMO. I think that having worked with a couple of different people and also having worked a less-than-perfect stockdog FIRST has made things go significantly better with my second stockdog. (BTW, I've also worked a "borrowed" dog that was already trained; if you feel your dog is so completely unworkable that you just CAN'T work it, maybe working a "made" dog and establishing a relationship with a trainer would be another avenue. You don't have a pup yet anyway, so there's nothing lost in using your "wait" time getting some work under your belt, yes? Plus it helps you establish your OWN credentials which may open up a lot of avenues for locating the right breeder and puppy for you.)

 

Just as a BTW, I don't trial, so I don't give a crap about others "out-competing" me there. Hence that would not be a motive for me to conceal the names of good breeders. I don't really know any breeders personally except those I've established a relationship with here, actually, and none of them breed often (and AFAIK, none of them have pups either planned or on the ground anyway, so it would be a moot point.) I did, however, establish a relationship with some of the people here who DO breed, and I had that before I was looking for a pup. I think that helped a lot. They knew who I was and had some feel for what they might expect of me as a dog owner. I live waaaaay far away from the center of the working stockdog world but I was able to establish some bona-fides that way, so that there was less worry (I presume) in the minds of those who might consider placing a puppy - whose life and well-being they feel responsible for - in my hands. I don't think people are UNWILLING to help you - I think they just want to be comfortable with who they're dealing with before they think about placing an animal of their own (or referring you to another source for a puppy). You could be the nicest, kindest, most responsible and ethical person in the world, but still most people will want to know that before they commit themselves to placing a pup. Don't take it as an insult that they want to know who they're dealing with; I'd want to know, too. It only seems reasonable.

 

JMO, of course.

[Bill Fosher]

patw --

 

I think you know by now that you're not going to draw out specific breeder recommendations. If you were as connected as you claim, you'd have no problem finding a working bred puppy. Your generalizations about farmers and ranchers and their breeding programs are as insulting to me as a farmer as the quote you put up about all the women on this board being bitches.

 

So I'm responding to your troll not for the sake of giving you more ammunition, but in case there are others who are reading this thread who want to know how to break into the Border collie culture. Personally, I think it's just a matter of patience, politeness, and being willing to listen. I can only think of one "big hat" on the circuit who is somewhat unapproachable, but I think that's more just that it's hard to get to know this person. They are regular guys and gals for the most part.

 

But, if you come out of the box saying, "Hi I'm PatW and I want to buy a puppy from you," you will probably get nowhere. At least you would get nowhere with me. Most handlers are happy to discuss their dogs and their trial runs as well as their farms and lives back home, provided that you strike up the conversation in a polite way. As you talk to these folks about what they look for in dogs, you'll get the foundation of the education you need to be able to ask the right questions that will eventually steer you to a breeder who is likely to produce a puppy that would be suited for your needs.

 

At this stage of the game, Patw doesn't even know the questions to ask. He/she just wants us to send the name of a breeder. Again, if patw had the connections claimed, this would not be an issue.

[Sifreynir]

I would love to reccomend someone more local to you I just don't have a clue sorry lol.

 

With regards to cheap flights to Scotland. Avoid Christmas and Hogmanay (new year) if you can. Scotlands summer...is June...but judging by the rain this month it may have moved to July now. If you can avoid June, July and August as most tourists head this way then and is when our schools break up for summer and the prices hike for then.

 

When we were looking for our perfect pup. I started my search on the internet simply typing in keywords for border collie breeders. I had to wade through hundreds of KC breeders but found Northern lights there. Whilst I didn't end up buying from them, it did help me formulate what it is I wanted from a breeder and what was right for me and my family.

 

I also spoke to people here about their thoughts and feelings on breeding rather than specific breeders - as well as friends in other places and dog forums. The breeder YOU choose will be best for YOU. If you can't stand the AKC dogs, then don't even bother looking at them, again if you feel uncomfortable with the ranchers, don't go that route.

 

Here, I can pick up a local paper (generally the free ads) and find at least half a dozen advertisements for border collie litters and they are generally ALL farm bred dogs. This applies not just in Scotland but most of the UK. This is what we did in the end. But of course that is here not where you are?

 

It maybe worth investigating locally in the papers?

 

I am sorry I can't be of more assistance for the US but there is a wealth of information here from people.

 

As for your current dog not being biddable I would get a second opinion