Breeders Classified: A frustrated person's search for a BC pup

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Newspaper adverts aren't a good way to find pups here, unfortunately. Not quite the same. The farmers have their own publication, usually, that most people don't think to look in. The advertisements you see in the papers with a more general audience are 90% pet breeders, backyard breeders, and puppy millers.

 

After patw's last very bizarre post, it might be time to talk about Mr. Woo? I think he should be elected Master of the Universe. That tail deserves recognition in multiple adoring galaxies.

 

[Samantha J]

Here, I can pick up a local paper (generally the free ads) and find at least half a dozen advertisements for border collie litters and they are generally ALL farm bred dogs. This applies not just in Scotland but most of the UK. This is what we did in the end. But of course that is here not where you are?

 

 

Just thought i would add (i know that you put most not all though) that in my part of the UK - Cambridgeshire. We have very flat land here and so we have a lot of arable farms (hope that is how it is spelt ) not working sheep farms/land like other areas ie Yorkshire etc. I live in walking distance of a few farms but no animals just arable land.

Therefore in our local papers you don't get farm breed BC's for sale like i would imagine you do in Scotland. We have lots of BC's around here but the ones i have seen are all companion dogs.

 

 

ETA - sorry that is nothing to do with this thread but i thought i would add it as that is what it is like locally for me in the UK

[Sifreynir]

Just thought i would add (i know that you put most not all though) that in my part of the UK - Cambridgeshire. We have very flat land here and so we have a lot of arable farms (hope that is how it is spelt ) not working sheep farms/land like other areas ie Yorkshire etc. I live in walking distance of a few farms but no animals just arable land.

Therefore in our local papers you don't get farm breed BC's for sale like i would imagine you do in Scotland. We have lots of BC's around here but the ones i have seen are all companion dogs.

 

there ya go...learn something new everyday. Was brought up in Yorkshire so perhaps that is where my assumption comes from lol. I have family 'darn sarf' but if I go any further south than nottingham I come out in a rash lol

[Samantha J]

there ya go...learn something new everyday. Was brought up in Yorkshire so perhaps that is where my assumption comes from lol. I have family 'darn sarf' but if I go any further south than nottingham I come out in a rash lol

 

 

like the 'darn sarf' i don't quite speak like that but it was funny. lol

[Sue R]

PatW - Please give us an idea what you are planning on doing with a dog. Do you have a farm/ranch and stock? What kind of stock? Are you mainly interested in trialling? Do you plan on getting stock? How often do you intend (and with the reality of the addictiveness of stockdogging, all things can change) to train your dog? These questions aren't meant to be intrusive or derisive, but just to get a feel on what your goals are so folks can best try to help you.

 

We all started out as novices and with a "first dog" at some point in life or another. Many of us have made (and still make) mistakes. But most folks here want to help and assist others in avoiding many of the same errors and setbacks that they have faced.

 

As for some of the private emails you've received, maybe the less said, the better! They sound a lot more like sour grapes than sound advice to me.

 

Most of the posters are women and they are all nasty uptight bitches...

 

Most knowledgeable folks here are caring and passionate about the dogs, and the best don't "suffer fools lightly" which is where some posters run into problems with them. Many people post and get their knickers in a knot when everybody doesn't hop on to tell them how wonderful they are but, usually, give them sound advice and replies based on experience.

 

Because your dog will compete with their dog and they won't be winning at trials any longer.

 

Sounds like whoever wrote you is from Planet Paranoid. There are limited numbers of board members who actually trial much, winning isn't as important to them as each run being a test of their partnership with their dogs rather than a competition with others (a good placing or win is just icing on the cake for a good run), and they have been the most welcoming group of people I have ever met.

 

Many of them have no fear of competition from the likes of you or me as they run Open, and it would take quite some time for either of us (if ever) to be prepared and competent to compete with them. When that happened, they would probably be right there to cheer you on in your successes and commiserate with you in your less-than-stellar outings. Those few that might not fall in that friendly category, aren't worth worrying about.

 

The top members of your ABCA have bad breeding programmes.

 

And who is "Nigel" to be such an expert on our breeders? Don't answer. The issue of bad breeders happens everywhere - that's why you are looking to find a good breeder. Actually, the type of example he is referring to can be found on UK websites as well as others in the US and around the world. That's the type of website/breeder to avoid anywhere.

 

...all breeders in your country ignore health issues...

 

Not true, as you hoped! There is a great deal of concern with health issues when it comes to good breeders anywhere. How to assess health issues is definitely a matter of differing opinions. Most working Border Collie breeders do not "test for everything under the sun". They breed sound, healthy, good temperament dogs and bitches that have been proven in farm/ranch work and on the trial field in well-considered pairings. Some lend more credence to empirical testing and some to the art of assessing the dogs by actual work, soundness, and health.

 

The point is that no responsible breeder discounts health, soundness, and temperament but different breeders may have varying ways of assessing those important factors. Breeding may be more of an art than a science. The "old shepherds" who produced dogs of quality and soundness for many years before such testing was available are testimony to that. Good breeders breed "for the work" as their top priority, but never discount health, soundness, and temperament.

 

If you are interested in recommendations, give some more information about your goals. A person can't begin to help you without understanding what you want to accomplish. Recommendations (and warnings) also will be made privately as they are not usually done in the public forum.

 

Best wishes finding a dog that suits you and accomplishing things with your current dog. Remember, although you say folks have said he's not biddable (and that could be the case), there are many top dogs that have gone through several owner/handler/trainers before they found the right one to bring out their latent but inherent talents and qualities.

[Jack & Co.]

Most of the posters are women and they are all nasty uptight bitches wanting to form social friendships and they take their clue from the meanest ones at the very top of the hierarchy on the forum.

Well, we are the minions of a poser's popularity subset.

 

>> The forum members are touchy about questions involving health and breeder recommendations. Eileen Stein keeps deleting such questions - see http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=12409. That is because all breeders in your country ignore health issues <<

 

I hope that is not true!!!!

 

If you read that thread, patw, you will see the explanation for the deletions. It shows that our moderator is on top of things.

 

I find it strange that you would post portions of those supposed emails along with your obsequious comments for the Boards' benefit.

[Sifreynir]

Most of the posters are women and they are all nasty uptight bitches...

 

I would take that as a compliment. If I found a breeder who wasn't like that I would be very suspicious of how much they actually care for their dogs?

 

If I were breeding pups I would want as much information as if I was meeting someone who wanted to date/marry one of my own children.

[Eileen Stein]

patw:

 

Thanks for sharing! If I thought these were genuine emails I'd take them down, because quoting private emails from others on a public board is generally not acceptable. However, since they're obviously made up, I'll leave them up for others to enjoy.

 

It's pretty clear that you're a troll and, unfortunately for you, a troll with a highly recognizable writing style.

 

The helpfulness of people on these Boards is evident from the time they took to post such good advice to you, and I trust it will be of benefit to other readers.

[patw]

This reminds me of my brother's search for a German Shepherd pup - without using our family connections or our professional contacts. The American GSD breeders gave him a VERY hard time, insulting not only his professional reputations as an endocrinologist but also questioning his motivations for getting into Schutzhund protection sports. They asked him all kinds of questions and insulted him, not unlike the hard time you are giving me here.

 

Eventually each one of them condescended to give him a pup for prices between $4,500 and 7,000 - for a pup!

 

However my brother went to Europe to watch the German Seiger show first and then to the German Working Trials. The German breeders were very nice and personable. He ended up buying a pup from the SG2 winner (Waldwinkel) and the top BSZS VA1 breeder (von Batu) for about $800 each. Even if you include costs of the two mini-vacations in Germany, the cost of both pups was much cheaper than the puppies he would have ended up buying in the USA, not to mention the polite and welcoming reception he got from the German breeders.

 

I think I will do the same. After my experience here, I will watch the ISDS trials and get my dog from Europe, certainly not here. I am quite sure many other potential buyers following this thread will arrive at the same conclusion.

 

As to Eileen Stein calling me a troll, your vita - which always paints the best possible picture - says "Eileen Stein is a lawyer living in Maryland. She has five Border Collies who help with her small flock of sheep and occasionally compete in sheepdog trials." Eileen you said you did not even know anyone who was from South Africa and now in Scotland, which tells me you lack real world knowledge about the Border Collie world. If you haven't heard of Janet Beale, you should stick to your law practice and play around with your "small stock of sheep" or "occasionally compete in sheepdog trials" rather than ruining the Border Collie breed in America.

 

I am done with this board and your stupid egos.

[MrSnappy]

I find it strange that you would post portions of those supposed emails along with your obsequious comments for the Boards' benefit.

 

Ooooh, obsequious!! 10 Woo points for a most awesome word choice!

 

 

RDM

[AK dog doc]

After my experience here, I will watch the ISDS trials and get my dog from Europe, certainly not here. I am quite sure many other potential buyers following this thread will arrive at the same conclusion.

 

I guess I don't get how going to trials in Europe and meeting trainers and traillers there as a means of finding a pup is different than doing the same here. Except for the distance, that is. Maybe I'm just mising the point or otherwise confused, but isn't that what several people suggested...? Did I just misread that at 2 a.m. ...?

 

 

Oh, well. (I have GOT to stop checking my computer in the middle of the night...!)

[Jack & Co.]

Ooooh, obsequious!! 10 Woo points for a most awesome word choice!

 

 

RDM

Yay, 10 Woo points!!! Can I cash them in for Woo facetime? Or Woo gear? Free Wootie stick?

 

(I like to toss the occasional big word out there so my parents don't regret all the money they spent on my college education.)

[Dixie_Girl]

Stupid egos? You come on here, giving NO info on yourself, refuse to even give a clue as to what PART of the world you are at, much less a state, you quote people saying all sorts of nasty things about us, make judgements on some members, make generalazations that do NOT ring true in any of OUR experiences, you have a dog that all you can say is that no one could handle it but YOU, rebuff any suggestions, imply that one of us e-mailed you, with the further implication that they are the "good" person, and then you have the nerve to say you would be better off going overseas. (never mind the fact that many members here ARE over seas). And we have stupid egos?

[MrSnappy]

I looked up Janet Beale. According to her website, she breeds dogs of all colours, with temperament and versatility being a primary consideration, and has not trialled a dog herself since 2000. She has 9 breeding bitches and two unsold litters on the ground as we speak. The website refers to her repeatedly as a top breeder. Since she has like 17 puppies available, Countryb- I mean, patw, should have no problems getting a pup from someone he admires so much!

 

Either that or she is an accordion player whose music you can download from her site!

 

Lastly, she might be married with two young boys, and an alumni of Miami Highschool.

 

Take your pick!

 

RDM

[Jack & Co.]

Eileen, I'm afraid you've been outed as a "poser."

[AK dog doc]

Is there really any call to download accordion music? Ever?

 

(Sorry if I've offended any accordion fans.)

 

 

(NINE breeding bitches? YIKES!!!! How'dja like to be in THAT household when the estrus cascade starts...? Well, perhaps Ms. Beale - and all the other Ms. Beales - are made of sterner stuff than I. The accordion music probably proves that.)

[MrSnappy]

Is there really any call to download accordion music? Ever?

 

I'm going to go with "no" for that question!!

 

RDM

[Sifreynir]

Janet Beale is based in Forfar, Scotland and has a website sheepdogsforsale.com

 

Scotland has traditionally the tightest bred bloodlines....so its interesting checking out the bloodlines of her dogs...*whistles*

[Eileen Stein]

Eileen, I'm afraid you've been outed as a "poser."

 

Well, I have to admit that Janet Beale is a known person, and I do know who she is. She exports a lot of dogs, but I didn't know she is giving "seminars" in the US. But then again, maybe it wasn't in the US.

 

Other than that, I'm sure I qualify as a poser right along with the rest of y'all.

[Root Beer]

Is there really any call to download accordion music? Ever?

 

Actually, I could see doing a Freestyle routine with Dean to a good accordian polka! Kind of a comic routine!

 

For that I would download accordion music!

[juliepoudrier]

Since I'm the number one poser here and probably a b***h to boot (well, and I do *prefer* bitches to dogs), I've refrained from posting to this thread. But I guess I will now. I actually have heard of Janet Beale but did not make the connection between the former S. African now living in the UK till you mentioned her name. I don't know her personally and don't know much about her breeding, though there are people with her pups on some of the lists I'm on, FWIW. Like Eileen, I wasn't aware she had come to the US to give seminars. But since I don't know her and haven't seen her dogs working and trialing I can't really pass judgment on her or her breeding program. Just that the emphasis on color would turn me away. Frankly there are many, many amazingly excellent shepherds and breeders in the UK, and I wouldn't want to limit myself to one whose breeding philosophy doesn't mesh with my own. But there are also plenty of wonderful breeders in the US; unfortunately, you have to get involved in their world, at least a little, to find them.

 

ISTM, we had a round of this same sort of thing where a poster got mad because no one would list breeders for that person to choose from. In that thread I stated that I don't routinely refer anyone to breeders unless I know them personally or they were recommended to me by someone I knew personally and trusted. In the latter case, you can still have problems, as I did when I friend of mine recommended someone she didn't know well to me--then I had to deal with that person, which was not fun. IIRC, there were other people who responded to that thread saying that they thought people like me shouldn't be doing "prescreening" for breeders as breeders should be able to do that themselves, and that I might be making the breeder miss out on a good home. To that I say too bad. Most good breeders I know have no problems placing their pups and usually have waiting lists before a litter is born, so no need of my help. At any rate, I just happen to be one of those people who is *not* comfortable giving out names of breeders to people I don't know. So sue me. I don't think it's anyone's intention to prevent you from getting the pup of your dreams, or to prevent you from trialing and someday winning, but as with most things in life, finding the perfect working pup really does require some legwork and self-education on the puppy buyer's part. My best working dog and best trial dog I bought after seeing her parents work and liking them. I got to know the owners of both sire and dam, and they got to know me, because I attended trials and talked to them. I showed interest in learning to work dogs, was trialing at the novice level with my *rescue* dogs, and all the other things people here have advised you to do. The breeder saw my interest and commitment firsthand and had no issues with putting me on her list, and I got the pup of *my* dreams. My point? I didn't go to an relatively anonymous Internet forum and ask for breeder recommendations. I did all the things people here have advised you to do. I guess I just don't understand why so many folks want to be spoonfed, don't have any desire to put the time and legwork into getting a living creature that's a lifetime commitment and could be a lifetime's working partner, and yet feel insulted when folks don't jump at the chance to say: "Oh, do go to John Smith." Most responsible "John Smiths" aren't going to leap at the chance to sell some complete stranger a pup, and if they were willing *I* would certainly think twice about buying from them or recommending them.

 

JMO of course, as one of the forum's snarky bitches....

 

J. aka "The Poser"

[ErinKate]

I am so confused!

 

I will skip the growing tension and just say, when I recommend someone to anyone, whether it be for a horse of a dog, I am very careful not to send a wack job that is going to make me look bad. I am as careful as I am picking who to send someone to. It all comes back to me. Bottom line, people don't like to look stupid. That is why no one is giving you names. Right now, I wouldn't give you the name of my plumber.

Good luck.

[Alaska]

It does look like I am not welcome here, so I don't think I will be posting on this forum again.

R.I.P. "countryboy" 6/17/07 - 6/19/07

 

I am done with this board and your stupid egos.

R.I.P. "patw" 6/22/07 - 6/24/07

 

Farewell, you mysterious young gentlemen who strode so briefly through our midst. Then again, it wouldn't be too surprising if another mysterious young gentleman were to appear here in, say, about three days, if the pattern holds. Since patw clearly learned much from countryboy's experience, we can only hope that the next incarnation will evolve a bit further. Thus does maturity grow from callous youth.

[Anda]

The Troll Incarnations and Reincarnations Love it, Alaska

[ErinKate]

LOL