zebedee Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I don't know what to do We got our Border collie pup 3 1/2 weeks ago. Shes now 11 weeks 2 days. The problem is, i am finding her more of a handful than i thought i would. At first all the signs were good, she was going outside to the loo etc etc, and she started to go all night without accidents too. Unfortunatly this only lasted a few nights and now she seems to have completely reversed and gone back to square one! This morning for example, i got up to a pile of poo and a puddle of wee. Then she went straight outside, i cleaned it up, then brought her back in and fed her. Then i took her outside again to go to the toilet. Then back in she came (i usually let her come in and out as she pleases but yesterday she discovered a way to escape). Then i sat and ate my breakfast, and when i went back through to the kitchen i was greeted by another pile of poo and another puddle of wee! What in half an hour! I'm not kidding you my kitchen bloody stinks and i can't get rid of the smell for longer than an hour or so, its disgusting, even though i clean up straight after her, it just lingers, yuck! Anyway, i started out with the positive training, used no yelling or angry voices or anything, but it obviously didn't work cos she just forgot everything i told her and went back to thinking 'oh it doesn't matter if i shit on the floor' and it also didn't work because she was constantly biting me and wouldn't stop, she just generally thought she was the boss of me! So i got tough after that, it just wasn't working, so i started to shout at her for biting me, i had to ok cos it was getting way too painful, and she just wasn't having any of it so i gave her a tap on the nose. Anyway, i really didn't want to have to do that but it worked! Now i just have to say 'NO' and she stops! So, because of that experience i decided the tough aproach might work with her toileting, so i have started to show her that i'm angry at her for poo'ing and wee'ing in the house! This doesn't seem to be making any difference! She also bites my 2 year old son all the time, again, i can now shout 'NO' and she will stop! The thing is i just don't know what to do with her now about the toileting. She seems to have one good day then goes right back to messing. She goes out in the garden alot. We can't walk her until wed night cos of her jabs. I am hoping that when we can walk her things improve otherwise i just don't think i can carry on Sorry this is so long, any advice would be good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Are you going outside with her to make sure that she is pottying?? When you bring her back in, if you can't be there to supervise her 100%, then she needs to go into her kennel. The kennel area that she stays in at night or whenever needs to be small enough that she can't and doesn't potty in it. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Deep breath and count to ten - 1, 2, 3 ..... I am really sorry you are not happy with your puppy but SHE IS A BABY! It will not work just letting her wander in and out of her own free will. She needs to go out to the toilet when she wakes up, after she has eaten and other times in between. You need to go with her, wait until she has done her business and then lavish her with praise. No amount of shouting or smacking will work - and it is just not on! I am getting the impression you have never had a puppy before? Have you ever owned a border collie before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zebedee Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Yes i do go outside with her and make sure she goes. Trouble is my partner doesn't! I have been having a go at him about this this morning on the phone! He gets up at 5am so poppy doesn't have to go that long really in between toilet trips! I told my partner he must start to go outside with her in the morning and wait until she has been to the loo but he just says he hasn't got time to stand and watch her anyway, my man problems are another story! Also, i don't use a kennel or crate, i thought long and hard about it and decided against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zebedee Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Deep breath and count to ten - 1, 2, 3 ..... I am really sorry you are not happy with your puppy but SHE IS A BABY! It will not work just letting her wander in and out of her own free will. She needs to go out to the toilet when she wakes up, after she has eaten and other times in between. You need to go with her, wait until she has done her business and then lavish her with praise. No amount of shouting or smacking will work - and it is just not on! I am getting the impression you have never had a puppy before? Have you ever owned a border collie before? That is all I can say for now otherwise I may lose my temper. Excuse me but i said i had tapped her on the nose because i couldn't stop her from biting me, and it worked and now all i have to do is say 'NO' Yes i have had a border collie before, and i love them to bits which is why i chose to get another one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Think of housebreaking your puppy in the same way that you did (or will) potty-train your child. My boys were potty-trained around two and I used positive reinforcements to help them understand what they needed to do. I doled out candy and stickers and there was even a potty dance that their father and I would do. Shouting and showing displeasure will never work. When Jack was a puppy we went out constantly and I would tell him to "Hurry up." When he did what we wanted, we praised and made a big deal over him, and gave him a treat on the spot. Don't wait to go back into the house for the treat. He learned that doing your business outside is a good thing. Please get and use a crate and if you have to, put the puppy on a leash around your waist so he can't go off and mess. You need to deal with the lingering odor on the floor, otherwise he will continue to return to that same area to go. Try white vinegar or a commercial product designed for pet accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I think you need to rethink not having a crate. Crates can make potty training go MUCH easier. As Kirsten said, pups need to go potty on waking, after playing, about 10-15 minutes after eating. Just look at their body size and you can see their bladders aren't very big. If you start to teach a potty word while you have her out in the yard, you'll eventually be able to get her to go on command, which is very handy when you're in a hurry. If you take her out and she doesn't go within a few minutes you can bring her back in the house and put her in her crate and try again in 15 minutes or so. Housetraining doesn't happen overnight and you have to be consistent and *persistent.* If your partner refuses to make sure she elimates when she's outside early in the morning, then you can't really blame her for going in the house. If your partner won't get on board with the housetraining program, then you will need to do it yourself, even if that means getting up at 5 a.m. and going out with her yourself. If you had a crate, you could put her back in it when she was finished with her toilet and go back to bed. Yelling at her when you find her messes in the house is NOT teaching her that she shouldn't pee or poop in the house. It's teaching her that the human goes crazy on occasion for no understandable reason (she will NEVER make the connection between having gone to the bathroom on the floor and you getting angry later when you find it--dogs don't reason that way). Get a crate, be consistent, and give the poor pup a chance to get it right. You have a two-year-old. Have you started toilet training him (or did you already)? If he had an accident, did getting angry or yelling about it help the situation? Probably not, and little humans at least have human reasoning power, unlike dogs. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 sound like you need to train your partner too lol I would suggest getting a crate too. Look at it like the dogs bedroom as opposed to a 'cage'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zebedee Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Ok thanks for the advice! Let me explain a little better! The dog WAS going outside to the toilet, and i use all the praise etc like you are suggesting, and i was ignoring the accidents when they happened, BUT she has just started to go to the toilet on the floor again after me thinking she was trained! And i don't just mean accidents, i mean she is doing it ALOT, I thought this was because she thinks its acceptable to do it in the house?? I DO, take her outside when she wakes, after food etc etc, AND she does know a command for going to the toilet too! So all this is good right? So why has she decided all of a sudden that it doesn't matter if she poos on the floor? This is why i started to shout, well not shout, more growl lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zebedee Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 sound like you need to train your partner too lol I would suggest getting a crate too. Look at it like the dogs bedroom as opposed to a 'cage'. Yes your absolutely right there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 You're gonna need a crate. Not just for potty training, either. As she grows up, you're going to need one for time outs when she ignores you and chases the cats, child, partner, whatever and for a place to put her when she's plucked your last nerve (just wait till she turns six months old ) and you really have to have a little break from her. It's also just about impossible to housetrain a puppy without a crate, unless you have unlimited time to follow her around watching her like a hawk so you can take her out every single time she has to go. With a crate, you can put her in there when you can't watch her, and she won't soil it if she can help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Not to be gross or anything- but how is her stool? She may have some sort of intestinal upset that is causing this. How much, and when are you feeding her? If she is in the habit of relieving herself in one place, it may just be a habit- so start feeding her at that place. In fact, feed her wherever she messes (after you clean it up). If you can't crate her, you need her with you 100% of the time, so you can stop accidents before they happen, or at the very least, the second they start. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexie Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 We started with Molly at 3.5 months and didn't go the crate route, but it means accepting that the dog WILL have accidents and restraining her to an area that can be cleaned up effectively (kitchen for us). In the start, I set the alarm for the middle of the night to get up and take her out so she wouldn't have to hold it. Then when she was doing well, we relaxed to being very alert to any whining. Accidents can and do happen. You have to stay with her most of the time so that you can hurry her out if she starts to go inside and make sure she does go outside. If you leave her unattended, expect to clean up after her and make appropriate preparations. It took Molly a long time to learn what to do to tell us she needed to go out. We had to be VERY alert for uneasiness that often was mixed in with play. And always praise her for doing her business in the right spot. Additionally, I've read that bitches can be problematic with potty behaviors. Even if spayed, they may be preparing for a potential future litter of pups and not want to scent a territory. So you probably also want to attach a command to pottying and visit the same spot routinely (not to close to home). Even if she goes fine in her regular spot, you might be thankful for the command some day in the future when she can't figure out where to pee!! Molly still will only pee away from home on command and will NOT do more than pee. She'll whine and whine like she needs to go out and sniff spots for ages but just won't go no matter how much we tell her to. If your guy can't learn good puppy routine, you may want to go with getting up yourself. Also right after eating is too soon to expect her to poo again. About half an hour after eating is usually when the meal gets through the system and she's ready to go. So let her eat breakfast while you eat breakfast then take her out. Good lcuk! Rebecca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexie Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 The dog WAS going outside to the toilet, and i use all the praise etc like you are suggesting, and i was ignoring the accidents when they happened, BUT she has just started to go to the toilet on the floor again after me thinking she was trained! And i don't just mean accidents, i mean she is doing it ALOT, I thought this was because she thinks its acceptable to do it in the house?? This is normal. Don't expect her to be reliable until she is much older. Molly had accidents again around 6 months after a long time of good behavior so we backed up a few steps and now at 7 months she seems okay again. But we also restrict her to the kitchen, which she thinks of as her den and really doesn't want to dirty, whenever we aren't paying attention to her. Also gave her lots of praise for ASKING to go out when she needed to so she learned how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverWolf73 Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 It is also possible that she has some sort of infection...either a bladder infection or some sort of intestinal parasite she has picked up. You might want to ask your vet about her...sounds like she was doing well and suddenly not so that's what brought to mind an infection. I had a pup who started peeing in the house after being pretty much housetrained and she had a bladder infection. After a round of antibiotics she was able to "hold it" much better! I used a crate also and it is a lifesaver!! I reccomend one that has a slide-out bottom so if she messes in it you don't have to drag the whole thing out to clean it...just pull out the bottom and hose it off! Also don't waste money on those crate pads...they are wonderful chew toys and your pup will probably destroy it in an hour! Stick to old towels or nothing at all till she's older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Kelpiegirl has a good point about intestinal issues. Jack had a terrible time with parasites (animal shelter puppy) and that caused a diarrhea problem. Maybe it's time for a trip to the vet to check for worms. I will use children as an example again......yes, they understand what to do, but for various reasons, a trip, new sibling, illness, you can have regression. Doesn't mean that they aren't potty-trained anymore, but circumstances have jumbled things up a bit. Even when they are much older, they get so busy playing that they forget to go until it's too late. Backtrack a little if you have to and reinforce the earlier housebreaking steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I know what you are going tru here ben is 3 months and I have had him for 4 weeks it is easy to forget they are such babies but please go back to the positive training ben seemed toilet trained after 1 week he sits at the door and waits to go out and barks if I don't notice sounds ideal but he also asks to go out many times when he dosent want the loo so if I am fed up I might tell him to wait and that he dosent need the loo so he stoped asking and started going in the house when he didn't get out that's my fault not his so I can't have a go at him I just have to make sure he is always in sight in the same room as me or in his crate-it is not fair to expect him to know how to act without being told and yelling would only make him scared of going to the loo infront of me so making the problem worse yes the tap on the nose has worked for the 'biting' but for the wrong reasons-he now knows not to 'bite'when you are there and yelling he has to learn what he can and can not chew-if he dosent know what is right you can't tell him off for doing wrong do you hit a human baby if it reaches for something dangerous? or do you just move the thing away and remember - its mouthing not biting-it may hurt and it is unwanted but that's how puppies explore the world-just show em what they can chew and v careful with kids and wee pups- watch all the time and separate when either becomes overexcited not saying I am an expert this is my 1st dog and I am making many mistakes but ben is forgiving it is hard not to yell at him when he is barking non stop and I don't understand why but please enjoy your baby - have fun, play, take photos they grow up fast - and get the hang of toilet training pretty quickly in the great big scheme of things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 totally agree with Julie- and yes crate training makes everything run so smoothly. Look on Craigslist. I am down to only 3 now. and I have one dog-LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I would also counsel, take a deep breath. What you're seeing isn't the puppy from hell but just normal pup behaviour, and I'd also recommend crate training. Pups have a natural inhibition against messing where they sleep. Crate training takes advantage of that. The crate needs to be small enough that the pup can't designate one area for a "toilet" and another for the "bedroom". Some of the wire crates come with dividers that you can move back as the pup gets bigger. The pup messes in the house because it is big enough that he can find a spot far enough away from where he sleeps that it won't bother him (regardless of how much it bothers you). What everyone else has said about taking him out as soon as he wakes up, 10 minutes after he eats, after play time, and every half hour or so is critical. It's a royal pain in the ass, espeically standing outside in the rain and the cold at 5 in the morning BUT at most it's going to last six months because (and probably earlier) by then he'll get the point. Also, develop a word for toilet breaks. I use "outside". Like an eejit, I'm out there in the morning with the pup on a lead whispering "outside", "outside", "outside" until he goes, then praising him and "good outside" while the neighbours go by shaking their heads. The point is that eventually you open the door and say "outside" and he knows why he's going out. Hopefully, at about 6 - 8 mos, he'll learn to go stand by the back door when he needs to go out. That brings on the next pain in the ass phase. You'll be letting him out every 20 minutes that he's out of the crate, but that too will pass. Trust me, with my first pup I didn't buy it either. My wife had to use positive and negative reinforcement (your damn pup, you clean it up) to get me to buy in but I'm convinced. Be consistent with this for the first 6-8 months and you have a dog you can trust not to turn your house into a sewer for the next 12 - 16 years. It's a good investment. After 9 months, the only time our dogs mess in the house is if something goes very very wrong (ie big stomach upset), and even then it's usually on the tile floor by the back door and not on the living room rug. The biting isn't "biting". At this stage it's play behaviour. It does need to be stopped but one way of doing it is to use the hard "NO" but then redirect his attention to something more suitable (a toy that he can chew). We use the same technique to teach pups not to chew our stuff. We have a collection of old shoes for puppy training. At about six months, while we are around we'll leave them scattered about the room (while we are there) and use the "No" and then the chew toy (here, chew this instead) every time a pup shows interest in our stuff. All the good shoes get kept out of reach. Eventually the dog sees more percentage in chewing his own stuff and leaving mine alone. Toys in the crate keep in occupied and make it more of a dog house than a cage too. Crate training does not mean locking your dog in a cage 20 hours a day. It means putting him in there when you can't supervise. You still need to have lots of time where you can supervise, but no unsupervised time in the house. That is when "accidents wil happen". The time he needs to spend in the crate will decrease over that six months as he gets big enough to follow you and stay with you in the house. The "don't have time" argument doesn't wash. Pups take time. Don't have any, don't get a pup. The time is a good investment. It costs less time and money in the long run to train a pup properly for the first 6-9 months than constantly cleaning floors, replacing carpets, replacing stuff that gets wrecked, not to mention the emotional trauma of coming home to a wrecked house and eventually taking the dog to the pound to be killed. Pearse (also a Magic Roundabout fan) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Great post, Pearse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Great post, Pearse! Totally agree - excellent post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighDesertSpice Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 A crate will serve you well today, tomorrow and forever. One of mine is crate trained and one is not. The first is very happy in her crate and I can ALWAYS fall back on it; the other, well, he's old and very big, so I give in. NOT HAVING A CRATE and CRATE TRAINED DOGS is the MOST INCONVENIENT way to live with dogs. If you have reservations, please post them (I didn't read everything in this thread.) so that we can reason with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WoobiesMom Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I second all the previous advice. Crate, crate, crate - it will save your puppy's life and your sanity. When puppy is out of the crate, it is with you on a leash. The second you see any body language that suggests potty, scoop her up and out she goes. If she starts to squat, scoop her up with a quick, rapid-fire "No-no-no-no-no-no" and out she goes. If your partner won't work the rules, you'll have to get up when he does and take her out straight away. If she wakes up and hears activity, she'll need to go. Yes, the biting stage can be a big pain in the patoootie. I literally hated Woobie during that stage and my legs were black and blue. I had 2 strategies, press down his tongue til he gagged or I would leave the room (into a bathroom) for a minute, leaving him alone w/no one to bite. It didn't really disappear until his adult teeth came in. It's a frustrating puppy stage I think everyone goes through. Good luck! Remember 11 weeks, 11 weeks, 11 weeks. Would you yell and scream at an 11 week infant? Or expect it to remember things? Patience....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I will simply second what Julie and others said about a crate. Annie is 3 years old, was crate-trained from the day she came home, and still views her crate as her "den"; that is where she sleeps at night, of her own choice. Annie was housebroken of defecating in the house within 2 days, and of urinating within a week. On the very rare occasions that she has an accident, they have always been due to a medical situation. Incidentally, if you do have to leave the dog alone in the house confined to the crate for any period of time, consider leaving a television or radio on in the room (low volume, of course); the voices seem to soothe a dog and lessen separation anxiety. You might also consider moistening some kibble, putting it in a Kong, and freezing it; this keeps a dog occupied for at least a little while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 We had Ash home about a day now and not one accident so far. He hasn't got a 'crate' specifically, but he does have a gated off area under the stairs and that is his den. He is happy and safe in there. The kids are not allowed to mess with him when he is in there. He has toys and water and I can shut the gate over when I cannot supervise him in the house. He just had his first hour alone in his den and he was fine...we let him out for a run around the garden...great. They really do help, my last border collie was crated and they help alot. Your two year old has his own bedroom yes? Well there isn't any reason why the dog shouldn't have his or her own room either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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