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storm/thunderphobia and anxiety meds


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Since the topic was brought up with the panicked escape of a precious 7 yr old BC in the Houston

area, I thought folks might be interested in this link below.

 

Herdings breeds seem to be the most widely affected by situational anxiety, although I've

seen other breeds affected too...several Goldens for instance. Tends to be genetic and appears

as dogs age.

 

In this day and age there truly is no reason for any dog to suffer the panic and anxiety that

situations like storms and fireworks bring. The anti-anxiety meds will settle the mind without

making a dog 'dopey'.

 

Yes, I know, I am not a vet...but any vet that knows ANYTHING about fear and behaviour will

agree.

 

http://www.dogaware.com/anxiety.html

 

For more info on behaviour google Dr Karen Overall.

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Guest LJS1993

I don't know about giving dogs medications which we barely understand how and why they work on humans. The problem with these meds are the changes they create in brain chemistry. These medications are highly addictive in humans and do sometimes lead to higher anxiety levels due to those very changes in brain chemistry they create. I would really have to think about giving my dog these mind altering substances.

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It is kind of ironic really, I just got through talking to a lady about submitting DNA swabs and questioneers for genetic testing for behavioral issues. They are looking for dogs to partake. One of the things they are looking for are noise phobias and such.

 

Also, the escaped dog was not left in a yard or out. But they did forget to lock the doggie door! And she paniced and left.

So this is another thing to consider.

A friend of mine owns an Anatolian Shephard that actually went through a glass window during a storm and left. She was recoverd thanks to the animal control.

Another friends GSD went through the window inside the house!

 

Bottom line, never assume and it needs to be a part of management of the particular dogs. Accidents happen.

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LJS etc/ Freckles You've called into question proven remedies that alleviate anxiety and control panic behavior in dogs and therefore improve their quality of life . These have been literally a lifesaver for countless dogs. Dr. Overall's work is well known to many on these boards.

 

The problem I have with your post is that there may be people who read these boards and are uniformed, who might dismiss the possibility of using these therapies on their dogs due to (what I believe is) the uninformed nature of your post. That would be a great disservice. I challenge you to post links/references that substantiate your position that use of properly prescribed psychotropic meds, overall, can produce more harm than good in canines. Personally, I find your post irresponsible.

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Guest LJS1993
LJS etc/ Freckles You've called into question proven remedies that alleviate anxiety and control panic behavior in dogs and therefore improve their quality of life . These have been literally a lifesaver for countless dogs. Dr. Overall's work is well known to many on these boards.

 

The problem I have with your post is that there may be people who read these boards and are uniformed, who might dismiss the possibility of using these therapies on their dogs due to (what I believe is) the uninformed nature of your post. That would be a great disservice. I challenge you to post links/references that substantiate your position that use of properly prescribed psychotropic meds, overall, can produce more harm than good in canines. Personally, I find your post irresponsible.

 

First off "Nancy", my name is LJS1993, Freckleslalamom is my FIANCE, so please before you respond to me at least realize who you are talking to. Thank you.

All I said in my post is that I would think twice about giving my dog any type of psychotropic medications. Did I say in bold type "DO NOT GIVE YOUR DOG MEDS"? Nope, I just merely threw out possible issues and factors that could be involved when giving meds to dogs, as in humans. Do I have experience with these meds on canines? Nope, but I certainly have experience with them being used on humans. Xanax is a very archaic drug used to treat anxiety due to the level of addiction and side effects it poses. Does it work for some, yes, but on many it has been a nightmare. So you want to talk about responsibility? Is it responsible to come onto a board discussing mind altering meds to be used on dogs? Or prescribing their usage even if you cannot find a doctor who will prescribe it? Why single me out for being devil's advocate and mentioning the problems associated with these medications on humans? I think we should be extremely careful when endorsing the usage of mind/mood altering substances on our canine friends. Thank you.

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Anyone considering giving medications for any form of anxiety in their dog should consult their veterinarian.

 

My last dog was put on Amitryptylline for separation anxiety after consulting his veterinarian. It worked well for him and I wish I had started him on it sooner. If I had, I feel that he would have made more progress in the initial stages of training/behavior mod.

 

I have friends whose dogs have benefitted from DAP, anxiety wraps, melatonin, etc. Each dog is different and no single treatment will work for all.

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>Nope, I just merely threw out possible issues and factors that could be involved when giving meds to dogs, as in humans. >Do I have experience with these meds on canines? Nope,

 

Right-- you have no experience and you've failed to cite any sources for your position. Not only that, you repeatedly refer to the supposed effects of use in humans... according to you.

 

>but I certainly have experience with them being used on humans.

 

Irrelevant. The subject is dogs. And the behavioral improvements on the subjects have been clinically tested and are documented. Look it up.

 

 

>So you want to talk about responsibility? Is it responsible to come onto a board discussing mind altering meds to be used on dogs?

 

Of course it is, if the information presented is *accurate* and credible! Particularly if even one owner can avert the disaster and heartbreak of losing their panicked dog as a result of seeking help from a qualified vet. There was a reference given by the OP to google Dr. Karen Overall. Are you even familiar with her body of work in canine behavior? Did you bother to read the article referenced?

 

>Or prescribing their usage even if you cannot find a doctor who will prescribe it?

 

Who here has done that? In fact it was emphasized in the link the OP provided that it is of paramount importance to work closley with a qualified vet or vet/behaviorist when utilizing these meds.

 

 

>Why single me out for being devil's advocate and mentioning the problems associated with these medications on humans?

 

I've singled you out because of your profound lack of credibility on a subject that is of critical importance. Before you go spouting off your "opinion" on a matter about which you evidently know little (and that would be the efficacy of psychotropic meds on *canines* suffering from panic or anxiety disorders), pehaps you should evaluate the relative merits of your arguement, or at the very least, seek to achieve a rudimentary amount of knowledge on the subject you are debating.

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Guest LJS1993

In your attempt to break down my argument you have still failed to "quote" where I have mentioned in writing, without a doubt for individuals to not use medications on their dogs? Please Nancy show me in my original response where I clearly stated what you have claimed. As stated earlier I am playing the role of devil's advocate due to the fact that many individuals may perceive the usage of such mentioned drugs as some kind of miracle cure for their specific behavioral issue. I would much rather error on the side of caution rather than begin to even pretend that psychotropics are the only way to deal with such canine issues. Furthermore since you are obviously such the intellectual why don't you show me both the quantitative and qualitative studies done on this topic. I want Chi-square results done on a population of over 500,000 canines proving the validity and long term effects of using psychotropic medications on canines. Please rescue me from my ignorance Nancy.

As for spouting off opinion, well unfortunately opinion is in many cases the primary argument behind these types of topics and issues discussed on message boards altogether. Thank you ma'am.

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As stated earlier I am playing the role of devil's advocate due to the fact that many individuals may perceive the usage of such mentioned drugs as some kind of miracle cure for their specific behavioral issue.

 

While not scientific by any means, most people I have discussed this with don't expect a miracle cure and instead have reservations that their dog will be 'doped up' and not themselves on meds. I had the same concerns and didn't discuss them with my vet until it became clear that medications were the last resort for my dog. I would hate for others to make the same mistake I did.

 

I'm not saying that every dog with anxiety should be on them, but I would hate to see people scared away from considering them altogether.

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Guest LJS1993
While not scientific by any means, most people I have discussed this with don't expect a miracle cure and instead have reservations that their dog will be 'doped up' and not themselves on meds. I had the same concerns and didn't discuss them with my vet until it became clear that medications were the last resort for my dog. I would hate for others to make the same mistake I did.

 

I'm not saying that every dog with anxiety should be on them, but I would hate to see people scared away from considering them altogether.

 

 

I respect your decision and am glad your dog is doing well. Obviously you exhausted all other means of remedy and your decision was well informed. As stated earlier I am not trying to scare people, I am merely adding caution in regards to the usage of such drugs.

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I respect your decision and am glad your dog is doing well. Obviously you exhausted all other means of remedy and your decision was well informed.

 

Unfortunately, he is no longer with us. The meds helped until it was clear he had a more serious problem. I lost him to a brain tumor last Oct.

The point I was trying to make was that it shouldn't have been the last resort for him. I should have informed myself sooner and tried meds years ago.

I'm left with a lot of what if's and the haunting memory those times when he would pant and drool to the point of severe dehydration. He could have had relief much sooner and I'm sure that I would have accomplished more with training if I could have taken the edge off his anxiety during the early years.

 

I am not trying to scare people, I am merely adding caution in regards to the usage of such drugs.

 

I understand that. I felt it was important to present my point of view and my experience since it differed from yours.

 

This is a very emotional topic for me and I'll leave it at this.

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Storm Phobias. Article by Dr. Karen Overall in DVM.

Excerpt:

Storm and noise phobias are emergencies.

 

They will only worsen with exposure, and the rate at which they worsen depends on the neurochemistry of the dog and the severity and unpredictability of the storms [...]

 

Treatment not only saves lives, but it means the difference between a life of quality or a life of pain and suffering. Treatment can involve the dreaded behavior modification, but this is one case where drugs are essential and not optional.

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Anyone who is genuinely interested in learning more about this subject might want to read The Dog Who Loved Too Much by Dr. Nicholas Dodman. It's over a decade old so the research is probably a bit dated at this point, but it's a good introduction to the kinds of behavior issues for which drugs seem to be the best, or only, known treatment at this point. (Other treatment strategies are also covered.)

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I've been lucky--neither of the dogs that have owned me were THAT afraid of t-storms. My St Bernard was afraid, but she would go and hide (near her humans if she could) but not to the point where it was uncontrollable. Whisper, the BC, is not bothered at all-we had a thunderstorm over the weekend, and there was one very loud crack of thunder, whre she looked at me to see how she should react and when I was not excited about it, she was fine.

 

I would suggest using Rescue Remedy. This is an OTC mixture from Bach Flower Remedies. You probably won't find it at your local CVS; they are normally found a natural food stores. Rescue Remedy can be used on humans or animals and put into water or directly into their mouth. From what I understand, it is good for sudden fright (an on-going fear is treated witha different mixture). I've used it on myself for stress and I can report that is does seem to work. I haven't tried it on dogs, though.

 

And as others have said--every dog is different. What works on one may not work on another. I'm just trying to suggest another alternative.

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Having a dear friend whose dog killed itself trying to escape a crate during a storm (same dog had run off during storms as well) and having seen her efforts to keep the dog safe during storms, I think I wouldn't hesitate to try anti-anxiety meds. Even if we don't know *exactly* how they change brain chemistry, it couldn't be as bad as coming home from work and finding your dog dead. This friend did use medication, but unfortunately, it was a type that required her to administer it at the start of a storm. Had she been able to use anti-anxiety meds while working on behavior modification perhaps that dog would still be alive. Likewise, I have a dear friend who was depressed to the point of nearly commiting suicide. Anti-anxiety meds like Xanax helped him to save his life. Were all things perfect on those meds? No, there were side effects that were in some ways certainly unpleasant. But living with side effects vs. suicide? I know which he chose. I don't think any of those sorts of meds are intended to be cures for dogs--they are meant to be used in conjunction with behavior modification to get the dog past its phobia. I believe that's what Melanie did with Solo. I have thunderphobic dogs and if I had to (and I may have to in the future as these things generally escalate over time), I will use everything I can to help them past it and keep them safe, including human psychotropic drugs. Then again, we tried some of the same on Farleigh for some of his obsessive behaviors. I didn't see a significant improvement and so I stopped the treatment. I'm a believer in trying something if there's been a good case made for efficacy and I think it will help in a particular situation, but I wouldn't blindly use stuff just because someone or other on the Internet advocated it. Surely we'd all go out and educate ourselves first. And it's not as if you can just buy any of this stuff OTC anyway....

 

J.

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Once you have lived with a truly thunderphobic dog you'll know this is not a condition to be slow to treat and drugs are a must. Every dog's body chemistry is different and not all drugs work the same on every dog; you'll need the help of a vet who is knowledgeable in the treatment of this condition.

 

It only gets worse and it can get REALLY bad.

 

Mark

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When do you know you should get help for thunderphobia? Tempe has just started showing signs about a month ago. Some pacing, panting and then she will jump up and lie beside me for the big boomers (we've had a some nasty storms lately). I actually have started getting up and working on obedience with her and the other dogs during these episodes and food does seem to make her forget for awhile. If I stop with the treats or play time and another boomer hits it all starts over with the pacing, panting, etc... but she will go to the other couch or find a corner to lie instead of having to try and get in my skin.

 

I have thought about calling the vets to see about getting som valium or prozac for when a big storm hits but just haven't thought it was bad enough yet. Do you think I should be proactive and do the meds now or continue with trying to make storms fun? Possibly both?

 

I have never had a dog that was thunderphobic but have seen many that are a lot worse than Tempe. I knew a great pyr. that would jump out second floor windows. I had a hound mix when I was young that would also jump out windows, doors, etc... This same dog stopped doing this when he was moved to the country. He loved storms then - he was an odd dog.

 

Thanks

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Guest Freckles LaLa Mom

Geez I wonder how Freckles will react? The T-storms are so far and few between (I actually MISS Arizona's monsoon season...it was so pretty!!) who knows. I dont *think* she'll freak...but you never know. hm...

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Ask yourself:

 

What if a storm came up while I was not with my dog; will my dog's reaction cause me concern for its safety?

Do I think my dog's reaction to storms is getting worse such that my answer for the first question could change in the future?

 

If either answer is yes, then IMHO it's time to talk to a vet about the problem.

 

Mark

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Is is common for a storm phobia to develop in older dogs? My old BC mix had no problems with storms whatsoever until she was about 11 or 12 years old. We had the misfortune to be in a travel trailer at our summer place when a massive storm hit, complete with 100 km winds and huge waves on the channel. It took hours for her to calm down. After that, she certainly reacted to storms but fortunately those storms were few and far between.

We seem to be suffering more of these kinds of storms in the past few years and while none of the dogs are overly concerned about storms, is it something to keep in mind in the future?

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Currently, I am not concerned about Tempe's safety when I am not home and storm creeps up since she is crated and that is her altimate safety zone. Nothing bad happens in her crate in her mind.

 

I will still speak to the vets and see what they recommend. It is better safe than sorry.

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Currently, I am not concerned about Tempe's safety when I am not home and storm creeps up since she is crated and that is her altimate safety zone. Nothing bad happens in her crate in her mind.

 

That's good; other dogs react by trying to escape from any enclosures (crate, room, house, kennel, etc) where these are not safety zones.

 

Mark

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Slightly off topic as I consider myself very fortunate in that none of my dogs suffer from storm/thunder phobia. I really do believe that many dogs that have a fear of loud noises stems from genetics. I would be really interested to know about any scientific research into this. I personally would never risk breeding off a dog with a noise phobia.

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Tempe has a lot of fears and can be skittish which I have said before. The one thing that does not seem to bother her are loud noises. She is not sound sensitive which is surprising.

 

There is some research being done about this stuff. I believe that Melanie (Solo's owner) can give more info or you could do a search on the board under the Health and Genetics section.

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