Smokjbc Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 It is not clear on the website,but I do know that several of the dogs listed on his "ROM" site are in fact ABCA registered as well. I do not see that he is necessarily taking away from the border collie breed or if that is his intention to repackage a line of Border Collies for his own benefit. What I do see is a an attempt to have a recognizable line/type of dogs with a very predicatable set of abilities and for a very specific need. I think those of us who have seen a few of these dogs work can recognize the McCallum "stamp". I know the name itself, in some circles, does imply a certain value- I don't see anything wrong with Mr. McCallum at least trying to define what that name means in order to do some quality control. This may be partially a prestige thing (the $23,000 price tag) but it is a sale that traditionally has high bids for dogs. I have not seen the dog work, but a close friend has and says the dog is very strong and trained remarkably well. I heard people talking about this dog well before the sale. This was an auction, so it sounds like more than one person wanted this dog based on its talents- notjust its name. McCallum bred pups that I've seen cost no more than traditional Border Collie prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Julie - Your second paragraph summed up many good thoughts succinctly. A "good" dog reads stock and works accordingly, whether it's a little lamb or an angry mother cow. Some dogs will be better at one end of the spectrum and some at the other. That, in my novice opinion, is a good thing for the breed as it provides a healthy level of genetic diversity. As for McCallum's website, right now, I would say they are a strain of Border Collie. However, in keeping his own registry and breeding for certain traits, eventually he could have another breed descended from Border Collies when the McCallum Cow Dog has enough characteristics to distinguish it from the Border Collie. I don't have a problem with someone having a breeding program for the type of dog they prefer in their work/farm/ranch situation. Isn't that really what every breeder of Border Collies aims for - a dog that fits their needs? But, I think that, if your breeding goals are outside the "norm" for quality working Border Collies, then you are entering the path to producing a new breed (whether it's really needed or not). My hubby and I wouldn't tolerate dogs that are rough on our stock - the stock don't deserve that and don't benefit from that, and the dogs don't need to be rough to get the work done. They do need to be able to back up with teeth and determination when the situation calls for it. I've got to admit that my understanding and experience are way too limited for me to make worthwhile comments on this, but I couldn't resist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catu Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally posted by juliepoudrier:What I don't get is that if McCallum started with *border collies* and is selectively breeding those *border collies* to "create" the McCallum cowdog, with no outside breed influences, then how are his dogs anything but border collies? Sure, with linebreeding, etc., he can fix some specific traits, but I don't think they are a separate breed. JMO. The American cocker spaniel was breed exclusively from English cocker spaniel, yet they are different breeds now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronHorse Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I found this article insightful, not as for what paticular breed of dog he is useing but how he goes about training. Tony McCallum interview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronHorse Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally posted by Dixie_Girl: I understand the need for a good working dog, especially on large operations. But $23,000? I wouldn't pay $23,000 to watch a pissant eat a bale of hay! But how much would you pay for a new device that would gather up 1000 bales of hay from the field and put them in the barn before the pissant's ate them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Yeah, I got ya! But if I could take my used $2500 tractor, and just made some adjustments to it and slowly increased its ability, I could soon have that device,,,,,,,,,,,for $2500! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coloradogirl Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 You know this subject could go on and on and on until the end of time. I respect all of your opinons but for me I personally do not see the big deal on someone spending that kind of money. Not something that I would do if I had $23,000 just laying around, but hey whatever!! The reason I do not find it to be a big deal is because we show cattle, mostly market steers. For those that do not know a steer was born a bull and has been castrated. I know personally of people that go and spend $50,000 to $100,000 for a steer that in the end has no use other then to go on someones bar b que grill. I know of people that spend in excess of $100K on heifers/cows to add to their breeding program. Most of these animals are bought for jr. showers and for what??? A ribbon the glory of winning. Some shows pay a good deal for winning, but in the end especially for steers you have wasted your money. So $23K for a dog that works and can take place of an employee or 2 seems worth it to me. But of course just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 ColoradoGirl, I figure that if someone wants to pay the money why not? I wouldn't do it simply because my luck would be that the critter would drop dead the minute I got it home. But good for the guy who sold the dog--I wouldn't mind making that kind of $$ on one dog. That said, I don't think there's much in the way of comparison between working dogs and show stock, as the prices for the latter are driven through the roof by people who want to win, win, win. And of course the prices paid for many of the project animals (4H, etc.) are way overinflated because buyers see it as sort of a "charity" event. People who spend 10s of thousands on animals that have no use but to be eaten have more money than they have good sense in my book! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hey Coloradogirl,guess I'm kinda with you...with any top end stock people will pay...$50,000 for a kid's show pony or how about the prices for yearlings at Keeneland or $75000 for a green dressage horse... Let's see, the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo is coming up...granted $ is going to scholarships but check out any of the sales and people will pay... At least with the dogs they're doing what they're bred to do and proving themselves.Anyone priced a top notch Thoroughbred with proven track record?Top NCHA? Ad infinitum....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coloradogirl Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I think that both the working dogs and show stock COULD go hand in hand if you were to buy that dog to trial so you could win. Because the main reason for spending all that money is to win. But that dosent change the fact that I could spend 50K on a steer or 23K on a dog to win, but if I dont feed that steer correctly, trim his feet and know how to clip and fit then what good does it do? I definatly do not know how to work a dog (though I sure wish I did, it is actually one of my lifes goals!!)So I could ruin that 23K dog just as quick as I spent the money to buy him. I however must say I am jelouse because I want 23K to spend on whatever it is that I felt like spending it on!!! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I thought the person who spent $23k on the dog was not a trialer but a rancher (not that the two are mutually exclusive, mind you, but it seems I read somewhere that they weren't spending all the money for a trial dog). I guess the reason I think the two are different is that with the dog you could presumably get a lifetime (a dog's lifetime that is) of work out of the dog and maybe even some good offspring, and maybe win some trials on top of it all. Do steers win a lot of money at shows? What purpose does a steer have beyond being eaten at some point after its show career ends? At any rate, I'm like you--I'd like to have $23k to spend on anything. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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