Trained or natural instinct

[kevin sharples]

As you can read from my very first post Tyzer was a rescue dog, picked up as a stray. So I have no knowledge of his history, but instantly I noticed he was really smart.

From day one I could see he had some level of obedience, and when he is in close proximity to our other animals (cats and rabbit) he will naturally attempt to herd them.

Out in the open he looks every bit the 'sheep dog' (minus the sheep that is) the way he plays frisbee or running after a ball.

So I have often wondered if these are natural traits of BC's or if Tyzer has had some form of training (obedience/sheep trials).

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

[Dixie_Girl]

Jackson started BC crouching at a very young age and giving the "eye" and this was for toys! It doesn't indicate anything but that he is a BC! So in answer, yes, this is natural for some BCs to do. I don't say all because I believe with bad breeding it can be bred out of them. I hate 100% inclusive answers cuz there is always an exception to any rule! The only way you can know for sure is to put him on sheep with someone who knows what they're doing and see what he does.

[Joe Anne]

Hey Dixie Girl.... I 100% agree with your statement of no answer is 100%!!!! hmmm!

Phoenix and Amica also have incredible, "eye", and started the crouching by a very young age. We got them at 7 wks. of age and when the 2 pups are together (now 1yr and 8 mos), nothing is allowed to be "by itself"! everyone has to be somewhere, and that somewhere is where ever Phoenix and Amica want them to be! hahahahaha!

As most of ya'll know, Phoenix and Amica had there first sheep experience, on May 23. Amazing! They were both distracted by smells, people, and other dogs, but when they did catch a glimpse of the sheep... they were on them in a flash. It is sooooo great watching these dogs, this is my idea of an amusement park, watching BC's herd sheep. I could watch them all day!

I can't wait to continue with my boy Phoenix...even if it is just for fun, although I would love to get to the level of trialing!

[Dixie_Girl]

JoeAnne, it IS great to watch these dogs in action! But when you have had a pup since 7wks, and seen what a goof ball he can be, I mean, a regular slapstick comedy act, get into a pen and work those sheep, well, there is nothing like it in the world!! I am sure that we will at least meet somewhere on the trial circuit someday! That will be something!

[border colliez]

A few suggestions here. You should discourage your dog from using a strong eye, say when they're playing with toys, or whatever. It makes the eye even stronger, which can become a bad thing when herding, it can cause the dog to hold the sheep on the fence, in corners, etc. Just a bad habit overall.

 

Also, did you know that playing ball, fetch, etc. puts you on the same level as your dog, they see you as an equal. This is not good since we must remain in the alpha position.

 

These are my opinions, but you will hear the same thing from many trainers.

[kevin sharples]

I am somewhat dismayed by your reply 'border colliez'.

Unfortunatly I do not have a handy herd of sheep for my dog to exercise his natural instints on.

So I have to rely on his keeness to run and fetch the said ball or frisbee. Sorry if this reply sounds somewhat blunt but I do not fancy the prospect of telling my 9 year old son he can no longer play fetch with his beloved COMPANION.

I hope your opinion is not echoed by the majority of people on here, or I have obviously come to the wrong place for advice.

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by border colliez:

Also, did you know that playing ball, fetch, etc. puts you on the same level as your dog, they see you as an equal. This is not good since we must remain in the alpha position.

If playing fetch taught my dogs that I am their equal, then when I reach to take the toy away they would guard it. This is what they will do when the other dogs attempt to take the toy. Having said that, these games are on my terms and when I choose.

 

Did you know that playing fetch can be a good way to run your working dog without the mental stress of stockwork; it can be a good way to keep dogs fit without schooling. Those of us without daily work for our dogs will run their dogs with a 4 wheeler, swim their dogs, etc. to keep them fit without the pressure of schooling.

 

Mark

[Maralynn]

Also, did you know that playing ball, fetch, etc. puts you on the same level as your dog, they see you as an equal. This is not good since we must remain in the alpha position.

Can you explain this? I've never heard it before. When I play fetch with my dog, the toys are "mine" and I call the shots. She willingly gives them up to anyone who wants them.

[Carson Crazies]

Hi Kevin, and a belated welcome to the Board!!

 

If you're not intending to start working your dog on livestock the whole "to play or not to play" isn't even an issue for your dog, IMO. I hope you and your son continue to enjoy playing ball with your dog if that's what all of you enjoy!!! I too play ball with my dogs, but on my terms -- the balls belong to me. The game starts when I start it, and ends when I end it, and then I put MY balls away.

 

I do not think that playing ball with my dogs makes my dogs think they are my equal - but like I said above I control the game. I do agree that it can be a useful outlet, particularly for someone like myself who does not have their own sheep, and am not able to get to sheep as often as I (and my dog) would like.

 

All of that being said, the only way I can answer your question is that the working ability that has been bred for generations in the Border Collie is part of what can make them pretty cool dogs in the context of fetching, or whatever past-time you have for them. So, hard to say what kind (if any) of formal training your dog has or hasn't had. So, in a sense, yes in a perfect world that eye and style should have been bred into your dog... (and it may well have been, if your dog's litter was bred for its working ability) and it comes out with whatever you're doing with him now.

 

Enjoy your dog!

[Dixie_Girl]

All I can say is that since Jackson was a pup like 3mos old he would "eye" the toy until I threw it. He still does. With the frizbee, whatever. But I have also started him on sheep and so far, in the instances where, the sheep were not moving, and he was in a lie down, he watched the sheep, but kept glancing at me waiting for "something". I give Jackson enough credit to know the difference between playing, and working sheep. Because he now shows this.

 

But then, maybe Jackson IS an extrordinary dog!

[Guest amylobdell24]

I had heard in the past that fetching things was not good for building herding-type instincts, but when I asked my herding instructor about it, she said it was a good non-stressful outlet for my dog. Even now, my dog doesn't give sheep the same attention as she gives a ball or frisbee, but I think one day it will click and she'll realize it's a team effort, just like our fetching games.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by border colliez:

Also, did you know that playing ball, fetch, etc. puts you on the same level as your dog, they see you as an equal. This is not good since we must remain in the alpha position.

This is a fascinating and completely silly idea. I'd love to hear how playing ball with my dog bumps them up in status. Pretty please??

 

RDM

[Joe Anne]

Border Colliez... I have been training dogs for about 20 yrs. and have had dogs all my life (and I'm no spring chicken), and I must say I have never heard that. On the contrary, like others here have said, you say when, where & how and you say when it is over. That does not put you and your dog on the same level. Also, when you have taken the time to train or otherwise teach your dog who in fact calls the shots, your dog learns to wait for your initiation and or ending of any "task". Dogs watch intently your body movement, listen to the fluctuation of your voice and something as simple as the raising your eyebrow or shifting your eyes, is something they pay attention to, and being the BC snob that I am becoming, I dare say, our BC's are darn good at reading us. Shoot, all I have to do is change my breathing pattern and Phoenix is on his feet, waiting to see what I might do! All that being said, no dog, is always 100% as far as obedience. It can vary according to environment, "what kind of day" your dog is having (much like us), what they ate or not that day, and generally speaking, I believe at times whether they just plain don't feel like listening right now! I have seen Phoenix, try to "get away with something", and I catch him and it will often depend on how I correct him or tell him to listen to me, and that can depend on what kind of day I am having.

Granted I am greenie/newbie to sheepherding, but I know for a fact that Phoenix's parents, (both working dogs and darn good at herding their sheep when sent out to do so), have play time with their person. These dogs know when it is play time and when it is time to work. A good trainer/handler can teach their dogs the difference.

Kevin, you will undoubtedly get many and various responses and or opinions from this board. Please don't be discouraged, those of us who have been here awhile have learned to put all those responses in a big boiling pot, and simmer for awhile and then make our own "informed", decision for what is best for our dog and our situation.

This dosen't mean that any one person has all the answers, or that one persons opinion is wrong, because we all have different experiences that have brought us to the place of our personal opinion.

What "I", am saying, (my opinion only), is, again, as a professional obedience trainer for dogs, and having many different breeds and mixes of dogs, and 2 BC's (one of which lived to 11 y/o, and was an awesome family pet who never saw sheep but excelled as an obedient dog), and my current boy Phoenix, who is just getting started with sheep herding (don't know how far we will go yet), and is also one of our beloved family pets who play with my grandchildren and me and my husband, NONE have given me any indication that playing interfers with training...

Have fun with your dog, try all kinds of different things. That is what is sooooo great about BC's... there are sooooo many directions you can take with these awesome, intelligent, energetic dogs, I say go for it, and let your dog be ALL, he can be!

[leahluvsherpups]

Originally posted by border colliez:

Also, did you know that playing ball, fetch, etc. puts you on the same level as your dog, they see you as an equal. This is not good since we must remain in the alpha position.

Hmmm.......

 

I too dont have a herd of sheep handy so the ball/frisbee is a huge source of excersise for my crew. The ball/frisbee is off limits when not in use, meaning they are mine, not theirs, and the dogs know it.

[Cheri McDonald]

Welcome to the boards Kevin! Have a blast with your dog!

 

Originally posted by border colliez:

Also, did you know that playing ball, fetch, etc. puts you on the same level as your dog, they see you as an equal. This is not good since we must remain in the alpha position.

 

Sorry, like everyone else here ball/frisbee is our outlet most of the time, but on my terms. My pack of three know this and never challenge my authority. Sounds silly to me.

[Piper]

I've never been on the same level as Piper...I've always been the mamma dog . I giveth and I can taketh away...

 

As for the OP question, Piper has always had that crouch when playing and she's never been around sheep or anything like that...so maybe it's natural for them to do that....not an expert here tho.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Ben shows lovely style when playing ball, etc - he's deadly serious about his "play", as he is about everything. However, he has about as much eye on stock as a rough collie or Aussie - actually, I've seen Aussies much more stylish than him. The thing they do on toys really isn't much of an indication of what they'll do on stock - I've seen German shepherd mixes and my little Finnish spitz mix stalk the ball when focused on it, looking remarkably like a Border collie on stock.

 

I do have a rule here that toys are very limited until they are turned on to stock, but it's not because of anything play does to my alpha status. I just want stock to be their "first love." Plus I don't think repetitive fetch games are the best for baby bones - but that's just a personal opinion, no scientific basis for it.

 

I've actually had a previous instructor encourage me to train in some sport to increase my nervy dog's confidence.

[MrsPalmer]

Everybody kind of got off topic here so the "eye" as it's called is a trait of the breed and so he may or may not have had formal training.

I was glad to read all the other posts supporting playing fetch.

On a side note...

My husband and I were on our way to North Wales and took a wrong exit at a crazy roundabout and we headed to Wolverhampton! (almost got there too)

I saw your location posted and memories of that dreaded roundabout came flashing back in my head!!

LOL!

[sandra s.]

I'm not a fan of the black&white "dominance" theory either.

Kessie submits at the slightest sign of aggression from me. Whatever I'm angry at, she comes over (ears down, tail down, worried look) to make sure I'm not angry at her.

But when we play rough, she rips parts out of my sleeves and leaves bruises on my wrists. She asks for a play fight, and I decide whether I want one or not. I can end the fight with one word when I've had enough, BUT she'll tell me with her eyes that I'm a lazy ****...so who's "dominant" here? They're not computers after all.

 

As for the "eye" and the crouch: Kessie has a perfect BC crouch for the cat, but her tail is in the wrong position. On sheep, her tail goes down, but her head stays up most of the time!

And she's always giving balls and frisbees the eye.