Bindi Mom Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 I thought I would start a new thread because I don't want my other thread to stray from the topic. I'm really learning so much and getting a lot of great information and links on the other one. This thread is mostly for venting and maybe a little encouragement. We've had a rough day. So rough that I don't know if I can keep going with Bindi. Some days she is completely out of control and I don't feel like I'm getting any support at home. On days like this my DH (I love him but ) can only say things like "I hate this dog" or "I told you we shouldn't have brought home another dog". Please don't flame him - I just need to vent this out. I'm feeling really torn right now. I don't know if I can give Bindi the training and structure that she needs. Between working and 2 kids with sports and after school activities, where does that leave time for my poor puppy? I know I should have thought this all out before we brought her home but I didn't. I didn't realize it would take so much. We went on a walk, played ball for a while and she's still getting in to trouble. She got food off the counter when I wasn't looking, bit my youngest so he was in tears, chewed through her leash and pooped in the living room. All in all, I'm fried. She's in her kennel now but it's only 8:40pm and, honestly, I don't want to let her out. Bindi is running the house today. Is she running the house every day? I'm I dillusional in thinking I'm actually making some headway with her training? Has anyone done a board and train? Is it expensive? Is it worth it? Any recommendations in the Seattle area? Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 With pups/adolesent dogs many times it can seem like one step foward, two steps back. A week after I got my now 2 y/o dog (he was about 20 m/o at the time), I though "what in the world did I get myself into". And I'd had a BC for 4 years, and have a farm with sheep! Now, 6 months later, I see some potential for the little rascal! All dogs are going to have their moments where they drive you nuts - they're just like kids in that respect. You just need to continue to be fair and consistent, continue to work on training, and it will all work out. Do you play any mind games with Bindi? Hide and seek with a treat, toy or person is a great way for her to use her mind which will help tire her out faster. Also, do you have any interactive or treat dispensing toys, such as a buster cube, to help occupy her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Has anyone done a board and train? Is it expensive? Is it worth it? Any recommendations in the Seattle area? I can't speak about basic manners, obedience, etc. I know that many will take in a pup/dog to train for livestock work for a month or so at a time (which of necessity includes basic stuff), and that usually runs around $400-600 a month in this neck of the woods (but hey, I paid $3.21 for diesel this afternoon; this IS southern CA after all!). If there is someone in your area on the boards, you might be able to work with him/her a few times a week to help you get thorugh this tough time. Main thing--100% consistency. Don't ask for anything you are not in a position to enforce. Think the situation through carefully and set it up so that the dog has to make the right choice; in other words, make it so that doing the wrong this is not even an option, Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 ditto Anna. Remember that if you're putting off frustrated energy or anger or whatever your dog can feel that too, and it just fuels the fire that is your lil pup lol Have you tried to tie her to you? Like where she has to go and be with you? That way she *probably* cant do stuff while you arent looking. Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Oop Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Check with your local animal shelter or humane society. They usually have a pretty good listing of basic dog/puppy obedience classes. Puppies are very active and BC puppies can be even more so, but I think a good obedience class can be extremely beneficial. When we have attended classes with our puppies we attend as a family and take turns with the practice. My 14 year old son has bonded very closely with our BC because he has spent many good times learning what it is to be a good dog owner and practicing the techniques from class. Most of these classes are not even very expensive. BCs love games where they must reason things out -- a hiding the toy game, or teach Bindi to shake, roll over, speak, etc. These are things even a puppy can learn. I do think, however, that a good basic obedience and recall will make things much easier for you. My Allie was a wild thing as a pup and we wondered (just a little) what we had gotten ourselves into. However, she is an amazing and wonderful young dog now -- puppies do grow up and, believe it or not, you will miss some of the naughty and wild behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth G Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Some days will be like that with puppies. Especially Border Collies. They just aren't like your average dog. Believe it or not we think that this is a good thing here...lol. And I think at one point or another we have all been ready to throw our hats in. Just tell yourself he's just a pup. But if you are sure that you cannot provide the kind of time and home the pup needs, I think it is better to rehome them as young as possible. There are rescue people here that I'm sure can help point you in the right direction. Whether you want to keep trying or rehome. I would think deeply on it. Good luck and I hope things work out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Hey Mary, Why don't you give the folks at Fido's Farm a call and talk over your situation? Also, if you google "seattle dog daycare" you will find a multitude of resources, including board and train ones. I know nothing about Dogs Day Out, but they have a program that seems like it's just what you need (their "day training" program). It sounds like your family needs a break to allow everyone to settle down. I'd give that a try before wrestling with the decision to rehome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexie Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 A couple suggestions that I can think of easily. If it works in your house, get a couple baby gates so you can keep bindi in the kitchen. We usually shut doors or put up the gate so Molly can't get out of the kitchen when I'm making dinner or has given weird signals that seem like she might have an accident. The kitchen has always been her territory so she feels safe there and it is an easy clean floor. Because it is the only space she has access to at night, she actually has only once had an accident in the kitchen... It is too much her den for that. We did have accident problems other places when she has access and we somehow miss her signals (they can get buried in play or the usual "daddy went out and i wanna go too" noises). It gives her more space than just a crate would, but keeps accidents cleanable and makes it easier to keep tabs on her. Can Bindi go with you for the kids after school activities? Even if she has to stay in the car a lot of the time, it is exciting to see all that other stuff going on. Molly is often tired after a car trip even if she has waited in the car while I go shopping or something. Lots to see. Just make sure she has cosy space in the car and can't get into trouble and ruin anything. Maybe a rubber or plastic mat in her area would be good so you can clean up any accidents easily and the car won't smell of them. I can understand the kids not being reliable as care givers, but what about play sessions? If you have a fenced yard or could put Bindi on a long line staked in the yard, maybe the kids could play ball or frisbee or something with her to help her feel like part of the family and get her energy out in a good way sometimes? And if she is in a fence or on a long line, you don't have to worry about Bindi running off... just have to supervise enough to make sure no one gets hurt. Teaching her to drop things is good because then you don't have to fight over the ball. If she isn't too good at it, swap a treat for the ball as you teach her that. It seems a little silly but I've found that Molly really needs to be WITH us. Being 10 feet away and being able to see us just doesn't cut it. We were working in the garden yesterday and had her staked in the yard. She could see us and hear us, but she was acting bored and grumbly. So I put her on a stake with a shorter lead right next to us in the garden and that was one happy puppy. Inside yesterday I had some trouble that she wouldn't settle while I worked (she is usually pretty good) so I put a leash on her and sat on the end of the leash. As soon as she figured out "oh, mom wants me to be here with her... this is what we do now", she settled and lay down and I didn't have more trouble with her. The Buster cube or similar suggestion is also a good one. That helps with Molly sometimes. It makes her work for her food. Meal time takes longer and challenges her a bit. But the cube one is a bit noisy on a hard floor so if husband is likely to complain about that, get a less noisy variety. ;-) Someone suggested to me that I could just cut some holes in a soda bottle but I'd already bought the cube and haven't tried. That would be a bit cheaper (especially if you live somewhere that bottles don't have return value) and Bindi could carry it around by the lid. Also cheap to replace if she chews it to bits. What about chewable toys? Make sure she has lots so she can work those teeth and keep herself busy. Also try teaching her names for different toys so she can find the one you want on command. Then you can keep her busy finding them while you finish up a few things. What it really comes down to is deciding for yourself and your family what you want and what you will sacrifice to get it. There are days I just feel so frustrated with Molly... like when she just seems to bark at things and I can't figure out what she wants or when I have a headache and it seems like she can't remember not to bite, but I love her and I know how much I do get back. Everyone has bad days, even puppies... or maybe especially puppies. How did Bindi react when your kid got upset that she bit? Did she seem sorry or anything? It is also possible that she has a psyche that just doesn't work well with kids. But I would think she could learn. I had a lot of luck already with Molly with the "yelp and ignore for 30 secs" that someone suggested in the other thread. The ignoring part made all the yelping make sense to her I think. Now she even backs up and waits and really tries not to. I think she just hasn't figured out how big her mouth is yet so sometimes catches my fingers playing tug. Good luck whatever you decide. Part of being a responsible pet owner is also admitting when a pet is too much for you and finding it the right new home. It isn't easy, but we learn from our mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LJS1993 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 I thought I would start a new thread because I don't want my other thread to stray from the topic. I'm really learning so much and getting a lot of great information and links on the other one. This thread is mostly for venting and maybe a little encouragement. We've had a rough day. So rough that I don't know if I can keep going with Bindi. Some days she is completely out of control and I don't feel like I'm getting any support at home. On days like this my DH (I love him but ) can only say things like "I hate this dog" or "I told you we shouldn't have brought home another dog". Please don't flame him - I just need to vent this out. I'm feeling really torn right now. I don't know if I can give Bindi the training and structure that she needs. Between working and 2 kids with sports and after school activities, where does that leave time for my poor puppy? I know I should have thought this all out before we brought her home but I didn't. I didn't realize it would take so much. We went on a walk, played ball for a while and she's still getting in to trouble. She got food off the counter when I wasn't looking, bit my youngest so he was in tears, chewed through her leash and pooped in the living room. All in all, I'm fried. She's in her kennel now but it's only 8:40pm and, honestly, I don't want to let her out. Bindi is running the house today. Is she running the house every day? I'm I dillusional in thinking I'm actually making some headway with her training? Has anyone done a board and train? Is it expensive? Is it worth it? Any recommendations in the Seattle area? Mary Hey Mary, my fiance is from Washington. Her parents have two terriers that were out of control. They sent them to boot camp and the dogs came back born again hard. I mean they had their &*$# squared away. Here is her e-mail address: danielle.eaton@msn.com She needs to get the information from her parents ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LJS1993 Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Hey Mary, my fiance is from Washington. Her parents have two terriers that were out of control. They sent them to boot camp and the dogs came back born again hard. I mean they had their &*$# squared away. Here is her e-mail address: danielle.eaton@msn.comShe needs to get the information from her parents ASAP. Hi this is the fiance My parents are from the East side, I will call them tomorrow and get the information or if you'd like, give me your e-mail and I will pass it on to my mother who will get back to you quickly (likely the same day). The boys (a norwich terrier and a west west highland terrier) were awful. They were completely untrained...they got nothing out of the petsmart puppy classes. They were boarded for (I believe) two weeks at a time, the norwich for three sessions and the westie for two. I could be wrong but I know that Toby (norwich) was there one more session than SamSam. I have no clue about cost but they came back fully trained. You will need to go in and learn from the trainers the commands and what not but I believe thats only two or three times per session. Best of luck! ~Daniela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Family Dog Training Center offers great classes. They have helped many people who were on the verge of giving up their dogs because of behavior/to much energy/etc. They have a website (and their is a familiar little border collie on the front page! ) and are in Kent. Many people drive even from Oregon to go to their classes.... This is a rough age (just like a 3 year old toddler), but with training it really does get much better as the dog matures. So maybe if you could just find some classes - just once a week for an hour plus a little work at home - plus all the wonderful people here you might get through it. I wouldn't give in yet.... Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 I don't like the idea of board and train (well, maybe for stockwork). I wouldn't, personally, send my 6 month old puppy away for someone else to train. Hell, it's usually the owner who needs more training than the dog! I just don't like the idea of not knowing exactly what is going on with my puppy at all times, or what is being done to him/her. Honestly, I know you were just venting, but...if the dog stole food off the counter and pooped on the floor, those are your fault. Food shouldn't be where puppy can reach it and puppy shouldn't be unattended for long enough to poop, if she's not realiably housetrained. Sorry, I know that's not easy to hear, but it's true. It sounds like you've got your hands full, and no support system as far as Bindi is concerned. I still think with consistency, she and your family could be just fine. However, if you can't or won't make a commitment to her, and decide to rehome, please, please contact a border collie rescue to see if they can take her in. A puppy like this needs structure and lots of mental/physical exercise. She should not end up in just any home. I hope it all works out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkie Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 you should watch the movie Seabiscuit. I watched it when Skye was in mess and when things seemed uncontrollable. But i kept on and am definitely not regretting it . Here's a quote from the movie You don't throw out a whole life just 'cause it got a little banged up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby the Puppy Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Hi Mary, Boy, can I relate to everything you just said. Toby just turned eight months old and he is starting to get better now, but there were days I wondered what the heck I had done. My hubby too, is unsupportive at times and I have three kids and a full time job. Toby used to bite my 4yo quite a bit (puppy play biting), so I had my son start feeding Toby and giving him easy commands (sit, down, wait), this increased Toby's respect for the youngster and now the 'boys' get along much better. Toby continues to be a counter surfer but is getting better, he has chewed just about everything in the house that he can drag under our piano and will still occaisionally steal food from us if he can (he waits and strikes like a snake when you least expect it!). My 17 yo dd won't have anything to do with Toby because he has chewed several of her good shoes (which I point out to her is her fault because they weren't put away), but she is coming around as Toby improves his behaviour. I am the only one who walks Toby and the only one involved in obedience, herding and eventually agility, but I usually don't mind because it is me time that I really need away from the family. I just printed out a cartoon someone posted about the destructive forces of nature, which include the BC puppy. I thought it was so true and helpful to make one laugh over a stressful situation. I really can't be any help to you I just wanted you to know that you are not alone and things will get better, it just takes some work and time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 The problem with someone else training your dog is that they respond to them. It's great for herding. I'd find someone that can work with you AND your dog at the same time. That way you both learn. Just my opinion. Usher is my 7th border collie and you'd think I'd know by now, but he is the most hard headed one I've had. So I feel your pain. This too shall pass and with time (I agree, take the dog with you as much as you can) With a small 6 week obedience class you will have the best dog you ever had and you just might get hooked and continue on to get titles and go on to agility. Once your dog has some control you will have the the love of your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Bexie has some wonderful suggestions, particularly about your kids pitching in to tire the dog out. My boys were 13 and 15 when we got Jack and they have lots of extracurricular activities too, but they were invaluable in playing with Jack and helping him learn to play politely. Get a Chuck-It and throw a ball over and over, anything that will take the edge off of him. A play session with the retriever down the street would wipe him out for the rest of the evening. I gave myself a break from him by letting him chill out in his crate when I had to focus on something else. A Kong stuffed with yummy snacks forced him to settle down. I found my fabulous obedience class at the vet where I board my cats so ask for recommendations. Well worth the time and money! Don't give up yet-----insist that the rest of the family get on board! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindi Mom Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Good morning everyone, Thank you for all the comments and support. Bindi and I both got a good nights sleep and the outlook is much brighter this morning. She is laying content on my feet right now! I'm not going to give up on this dog. I love her so much and she is such a goof ball. I know she is going to be an awesome member of our family. PSmitty: you are right - it was my fault that Bindi got herself into trouble yesterday. I was fried and let her off the leash to do whatever. She is usually leashed and by my side but I've been giving her a little more freedom lately. She's lost that freedom for the time being. I like the idea of my youngest feeding her so she learns to respect him. Obviously, I won't let him without my supervision but I think it's a great idea. I am making her sit and wait for her food and that is working really well. I'm also going to get one of those treat balls today. That should keep her busy for a bit. Daniela: thank you checking with your parents about the boarding place they sent their pups. I will PM you my e-mail address. I'm not sure if that's what I'm going to do, but it can't hurt to look into it. Alaska: I'm going to check out Fido's Farm as well. Thanks for the link. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Glad things are looking brighter. Just a few things. I used the "umbilical cord" method with my girl - who was a bit of an escape artist - and was really pleased with it. It suits a Border Collie, I think, because of that desire to be with you as much as possible. I also used a 4'x4' x-pen with her - a bit more room to move than just a crate. I'd certainly second the idea of having the kids involved in Bindi's training. Teaches her to respect them, and them to understand her needs. I personally would hesitate about sending a dog out for training (stockwork excepted, maybe). IMHO, it's about the relationship of the dog with the family it lives with, so the training should be done together, so everyone at least knows what the page is. Taking Bindi to training classes - especially ones where the kids can be involved - will really pay off. Here's a link NILIF and relationship which has some suggestions. NILIF is probably stricter than Bindi needs, but the general principles apply. Good luck - and I hope the good days continue to outweigh the bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbm618 Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 You really do have to wait out the craziness. We brought Skipper home from the shelter when she was 6 mos old (the shelter ppl let us take her same day, no interview, nothin... they didn't give us any warning). She had already reached that stage where she was just a devil. My dad was angry/amused for the next 6-8 mos, my mom had a fit over the dogs antics every day (she'd always come home to chewed shoes, pee, poo, garbage of all variety strewn throughout the house etc. etc.) and she threatened to take her back to the pound about three times a week. Finally someone suggested puppy classes. While we got thrown into a spare room by ourselves alot, we learned the extremely valuable lesson of how to train. Once we learned how to do that and did it consistently, she quickly outgrew the evil phase. Just remember, "This too shall pass." And it'll be totally worth it once it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyoBC Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 I'm glad everything is going a little bit better. It does seem to all hit you at once at one point after you get one. Just don't give up on him. If your commited to him everything will work out. Just wait until the puppy part is out of the way and you have a full grown, loving, caring, respectful, heart warming dog. Stick to your training even if it seems like your not getting anywhere. There is plenty of times I feel like I'm taking two steps back with Black Jack's training, but then he'll jump four ahead. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth G Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 I agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted April 19, 2007 Report Share Posted April 19, 2007 Mary, Glad things seem to be going better. As others have said, every one wants to throw in the hat with puppies at some point--and BC puppies sometimes seem to go from bad trouble to worse as Bindi did a couple of days ago. I find puppies from about 6mos-1 year generally pretty unlikable and just try and bide my time until they grow up. Our youngest pup is just hitting that six mos. stage and like clockwork, we looked at each other a couple nights ago and said, "yeah, he's hit that annoying, unlikable, must-crate-so-we-don't-kill stage" Luckily, fairly recent experience reminds us that it really does pass. Anything that you can do to relieve yourself a little--buy one of those meaty Merrick bones (or a raw bone if that doesn't bother you) and pop her in her crate for an hour or so. Fill and freeze Kongs--that'll buy you another half hour or so. If you can, take her for even a 10-minute walk in the evening where she gets you all to herself. These are all things that we've found help survive the yucky months. It doesn't help if you have family members saying that they hate the dog--that adds to your stress as you try to make Bindi lovable and feeds her sense that something weird is going on. I know you've said that your husband isn't very helpful with her, but is there something he might be interested in doing to increase his bond to Bindi (and hers to him)--something that helps him be a little more invested in her? Whether he likes her or not, she's now living in his house and it'll be easier on him in the long run if he can find something he likes about her--even if it's just that she's fun to throw a ball to or to play tug with for 5 minutes while he's watching TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clara Posted April 19, 2007 Report Share Posted April 19, 2007 I just saw this thread and wanted to give you some moral support for your puppy troubles! I really related to your vent about your DH's attitude about Bindi... mine was the same when Ling was about the same age and doing all the same crazy stuff everyone has described. He really didn't like her much and got very angry/upset at the destruction she'd cause sometimes. (digging up gardens, chewing on stuff, etc). I agree with all the good advice you're getting here. I also wanted to add that I used to be against boarding training, but have a very good friend who was in your situation with kids, husband, puppy, and was at her wits end, like you sound. She did classes, crating, the whole nine yards. But her house was just too hectic and full of busy teenagers to have any really consistency for the puppy's training. So she, against my advice, took the pup to a boarding trainer and it was the best thing she ever did for that dog. It was a good trainer and they will get the foundation work in place, then come to her house multiple times to observe the family's interactions with the dog and correct THEM in how they were dealing with the dog. It really worked for them and Mia, their dog, is a wonderful part of their family now. I don't know if I'd do it, but I'm not in that situation and think it might be worth looking into if you are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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