Thinking about crossing over...

[JaderBug]

I've been putting off this topic for a while now, mostly because I've been debating back and forth, and didn't know quite what I was asking. So I thought I'd ask some questions here.

 

I know there's been many Aussie vs. BC threads on here, and I am wondering a specific question- for those of you who have worked both Aussies and Border Collies on stock- regarding working style/ability, what do you like best about each of them? What do you dislike?

 

I've seen a lot of great Aussies lately, working ones. And I've been thinking. I am starting to think that whatever farming operation/situation I will have in the future will most likely be more condusive to the working styles of an Aussie more than a Border Collie- I doubt I will ever have a large flock of sheep, will probably have a few sheep solely to feed whatever herding habit I end up with. Also probably won't have cattle, but will most definately have hogs. I've heard many examples of Aussies working hogs but never any stories about BCs doing so. Has anyone here worked hogs before?

 

Maybe I'm just falling for the breed/working stereotypes. I love my Borders and I'm not sure I would ever give them up, I'm just debating what adding an Aussie to the mix would do.

 

Any words of wisdom or experiences?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Hogs used to be worked a great deal in the Southeast. There were enough Border Collies working them that they used to hold regular trials, even. I'm not talking about the misty past many generations ago - as late as the late 80s.

 

I've worked hogs once, with a very roughly trained dog. My vet asked me to help her move some rescue pigs from one pen to another, larger one in a different part of the property. I barely had the city dust cleaned off me in those days and I was shocked at how huge these things were - 1000 plus pounds!

 

Ben had nothing but his instincts, really, to go on, but he figured it out. It took two long, long days but we did it. It's tempting to say if Ben could do it, any Border Collie could - but, he really did have a lot of power when he had his head together and I wasn't tripping him up.

 

What you really want is to talk to someone who does the kind of work you are contemplating with your dog. If you will be pasture raising the hogs and need the dog to move them daily - for one thing that will be a lighter (comparatively! ) breed, and for another it will demand more finesse than pushing pen-raised or confinement-raised hogs through chutes. But working hogs that have been kept in confinement will take a dog that frankly is going to need a LOT of true power.

 

Don't be impressed by "four legged cattle prods." Lots of bite does NOT equal power with hogs. It's knowing where to bite and the courage to get there - sometimes it's right over the top rather than the more intuitive heel or nose. Then the smarts to look inconspicuous when the hog goes looking for the troublemaker. Ideally, the hog should think that God stuck him and that it would be a good idea to amble elsewhere.

 

Sheep work is so, so different than that kind of work, that I'd urge you not to judge the Border Collie breed by what you see during sheep work. Obviously you should get the dog you want (I have a hankering for a "different" herding breed every so often, but I've barely room in my life for the dogs I have!).

 

But "Border Collies can't do that" isn't a reason that needs to drive you. Border Collies can indeed handle the work you need. Not all of them, obviously, but they are out there.

[Ooky]

Hi Jaderbug,

 

I am much more of a novice than you, so not even sure why I am responding to this, but here is my very admittedly uneducated opinion. I've seen a couple of "working bred" Aussies in action - I put that in quotes because I can't really speak to the veracity of that claim. But here was my impression,

 

1. A good border collie can do whatever it is you want.

 

2. If you feel you need another breed, more toughness or bite, whatever, I would go for a kelpie way before I would go for an aussie.

 

Hopefully, there are working aussie people who will speak up and prove me totally wrong! I'm just saying, what I've seen...

[BCDreamer]

A kelpie or maybe a German Sheperd if you got from the right breeder.

 

I've seen some Aussies run sheep, but never run hogs. Sorry, no help, just thought I'd trow in that maybe a GSD would do the job?

[juliepoudrier]

I think that if you find stockworking genetics in GSDs it will most be genetics selected toward a tending style (boundary tending) and not moving stock in the way hogs need to be moved. I could be wrong of course, but I think most GSD breeders do consider the GSD to be a tending breed, regardless of how they might have originally been used.

 

Rachel,

If you looked (and it may take some digging), you could probably find dogs out of lines that were traditionally used to work hogs, and those would likely be your best bet for doing that job. Wendy (Lenajo) might even know of such lines, since she lives in an area of the SE where hog dogs were likely used.

 

J.

[Sue R]

The Catahoula used to be known as the Catahoula Leopard Cow-Hog Dog. Maybe that's what you'd be looking for? I could not picture a GSD working hogs but there are lots of things that work that I can't picture. ;^P

 

The best dog we ever had on hogs was an Airedale.

[sheeptramp]

You should look into one of these. They are so new, no single breed name can describe them.

http://www.ultimatehorsesites.com/brokenba.../puppypage.html

 

They're bred to work and their tails are docked to prove it.

 

 

Edit to add:

Scroll down to the bottom for some unique information about keeping your pups ears shapely. (Being petted too much causes ugly floppy ears)

[JaderBug]

You should look into one of these. They are so new, no single breed name can describe them.

http://www.ultimatehorsesites.com/brokenba.../puppypage.html

 

They're bred to work and their tails are docked to prove it.

Edit to add:

Scroll down to the bottom for some unique information about keeping your pups ears shapely. (Being petted too much causes ugly floppy ears)

 

 

Good god... what the hell are these things??! One of the 'pedigrees' has dogs in it like this: one half lab, one half Border Collie/Heeler; mix breed female; half heeler half Border collie; purebred Aussie runt of the litter (possibly Mini Aussie?!?!) one half Aussie one half Black Lab...

 

What about 'black lab' indicates 'cattle dog'?!

 

They're cute mutts, and that's about the extent of it. How unfortunate.

 

Speaking of idiots breeding dogs, I recently saw a litter of Border Collie/Aussie pups- three were black and white or tri, and one was blue merle. They docked the tail on the merle "because it was more Australian shepherd-looking".

 

Anyway, back with the hog dog stuff, a pushier Border Collie would be ideal if I was gearing towards BCs for pigs? A gentleman I was working with recently has an Aussie that works pigs in confinement and does a really good job of it. He also used to work her on 200 head of sheep and I don't know how many cattle- she seems to be very versatile. I guess that's where all this is coming from. There has been a lot of useful info on here...

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I wouldnt go with an aussie unless you are sure you like them. I find them to be less intelligent then bc's even as a mix. Sugar was not standing in the bc brains line. She is dull as is Genie compared to my border collies. Great pets but, no real spark. They ofen remind me of teddy bears.

 

There is also a bad side I've seen to females too but, I suspect they are one breeder in KY (all share the same hair and body type) they are flat out evil in my opinion.

 

 

The cathoula's are good dogs they have real drive and we had some that were blue merle. They have real size too to work big hogs.

 

Now the down side with them as puppies as they really need a positve outlet for their learning of instinctual behavior. Meaning a pack of older pups is a pain in rescue. They have all made great family dogs though easy to live with in a family setting.

 

Bottom line if you love border collies I'd want to meet some dogs of other breeds to be sure if I liked them. Possibly adopt an adult.

[ThunderHill]

I've never worked hogs or seen anything but still photos of hog work. However, the last Australian Cattle Dog I bought was from a breeder in California who used my dog's mother on hogs quite a bit.

 

My understanding from talking with that breeder (and a few others with pig/hog experience) is that working hogs is dirty, often violent and dangerous work. My ACD's mother was in a bad wreck with an evil sow and limped the rest of her life. Got the sow by an ear and held on, but the sow flipped over on her -- in additional to other injuries (broken bones and bites), the dog nearly drowned in the mud. (Mud being something of a euphemism for a hog wallow.) It takes a special dog to handle the job requirements, and I suspect an owner/handler with nerves of steel and a strong stomach. My acquaintence in California didn't refer to moving pigs as "herding," she just called it "work." (But I don't think she meant any disrespect to the discipline involved, and neither do I.)

 

I have local friends with Catahoulas and there seem to be several types of Catahoulas, among enthusiasts. (My friends call theirs Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dogs.) They've been down south to hog dog events and we've discussed it at some length. Frankly, what's involved sounds more like a cross between hunting and bull-baiting than "herding." I'm not sure that baying up wild boars (holding them till the humans catch up, or chasing them into a trap/enclosure) would translate all that well to domesticated hog operations. But, maybe it does. The several Catahoulas I've met have all been very nice, though formidable, individuals. Quite striking in appearance with some of the grand composure of a really sound, correct pit breed. They're supposed to have some serious prey drive under their calm exteriors, but they're also supposed to have good judgment about using it.

 

Oddly enough (per Sue's comment), I have also heard of Airedales being good at hog work. And boar hunting, come to that. But good working Airedales (if you can find one) are supposed to be tremendously versatile. And enjoy a rumpus. :-)

 

Now I'm imagining getting the smell out of an Airedale after a brawl in a hog pen... and trying not to. :-)

 

Good luck with whatever direction you decide to go.

 

Liz S

in S-PA, USA

[NorthfieldNick]

My friend uses her Border Collie to work her hogs when they're quite young. Her dog is usually pushy & grippy on sheep and cattle, but he seems to know to give the hogs space & push only when needed.

 

That said, my friend raises her hogs on pasture. Even the butcher weight hogs will follow a bucket of feed into a trailer. It's probably because I HATE PIGS (unless they're in the freezer), but why even bother working hogs with a dog? Isn't it easier to just train them to come to feed? That isn't meant to sound mean- I jut don't get working farm-raised hogs with a dog. I was under the impression that most "hog work" was with more wild/feral type hogs. But, again, I. HATE. pigs... unless they're on my plate.

 

Edited to fix my incomprehensible grammar.

[Sue R]

Airedales *used* to be called "bear dogs" in south-western VA. I guess another word for what they were used for would be "strike dog". Even a little Airedale pup in a yard and eager to make friends was enough to prevent folks from touching the gate, much less coming in. Didn't want to get near that "bar dog" who, at about three months or so of age, must have been violent and vicious.

 

That and the farm-type of Airedale was a sensible, useful dog - not to be confused with the senseless, bouncing idiot "Airedales" that I've met from AKC lines.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Ben - the ones we worked "came to feed" - the vet asked our help in desperation because as you know, there's plenty of times when food just isn't enough to motivate stock to move. In that case there wasn't any food in the world good enough to move those hogs from their comfortable long-time home, up that dark scary path, to a new "unhogged" pen.

[Pam Wolf]

I've worked both BC's and Aussies and I wouldn't touch an AS for real work. (flame retardant on so go ahead). It usually takes 6 months or more to teach a good AS what a BC pup comes born with. I am also currently housing 2 AS for a friend deployed to Afghanistan. Their barking drives me crazy. They stopped the body slamming due to 'education' by the BC's.

 

As for working hogs, I've known a couple of AS(perhaps mixes) that did. They always left rips in the pig's hides. The farmer who used them complimented me on my 2 BC's on how they worked the hogs. They would bite (and pigs need that) but not bloody the pigs like his dogs did.

 

I have friends who used to own a bunch of pigs, raising boars for breeding. They used their BC's to work them, moving, loading and watching gates. One of the dogs they got from me saved the woman's life when a sow charged her while working in a confinement situation. The dog took the sow by the nose and the sow did a backflip!

 

They used to have a BC that would jump into the middle of a boar fight and break it up. Later one of their younger dogs did that also.

 

Pam

[Sue R]

I have to agree with Pam, although I am sure there must be some really good, working-bred Aussies out there somewhere, who come with intelligence and instinct.

 

We've had several that were very useful on the farm but, compared to what the Border Collies could and will do that is useful, there is no comparison. I have seen a couple over the years at clinics that were excellent stockdogs - how much was training and how much was breeding, I can't say. One was descended from a top-notch working-bred Aussie, who sired many fine working dogs in his long career. If I was going to try another Aussie, that would be the kind of dog I would like in my potential dog's background.

 

I do find most Aussies I have seen working/training to be bouncy, barky, slammy, grippy, and insistent (for want of a better word). We've enjoyed and made good use of the ones we've had (MacLeod was terrific at driving and we've had none better for loading cattle - none of our Border Collies could hold a candle to him in close quarters loading), but I'd stick with a Border Collie any day for their brains, biddability, stock sense, and all-around usefulness.

[Smokjbc]

I've worked with alot of Aussies and while they are very enthusiastic workers and have a good one on one relationship with their people- they cannot touch a Border Collie when it comes to intuitive work with any stock. Funny thing about working smaller numbers vs. large- I actually think an Aussie is much more useful on a large group and not on smaller numbers. With their bouncy/barkiness, I've seen them do ok on range flocks when it comes to just pushing sheep as long as they had a little training and they weren't asked to do anything too sophisticated.

 

If you are not very experienced at herding/sheep- I definitely would not reccomend an Aussie. When I do see a good one "work" it's because they have an owner that has both livestock and dog savvy. Not only that, if you have to live with the hair, you might as well have the talent to go with it .

[Debbie Meier]

I guess it depends on how much you want the dog to do. If you just want a dog to push stock up barn aisles into different pens I know of some hog producers that are using good heelers (ACD), they can work calm (unless geeked up to hot shot), quiet and their hair coat cleans up easy (rinse and ready), also a Kelpie would be a good pick and possibly a Hangin Tree Cow Dog. If you wanted more range in ability, such as gathering, driving stock into specific places without the physical support of fences or yourself then I would lean toward the Border Collies (smooth coat), Kelpies and Hangin Tree Cow Dogs, it's hard to find ACD's that have the scope to work in open spaces independently. With all the breeds look toward breeders that are using their dogs on hogs and/or cattle, exclusively on sheep is more apt to get you a dog that is too pressure sensitive to easily adapt to the tight spots and driving in the hog barns, they can still do the work they may need a little more time and patience. Also, watch out for noise sensitivity, though most will get used to the squealing, banging and rattling. And on a final note, look for a breeder that has been using the dogs currently and over the long term in a real time operation.

 

We've had been told that Border Collies won't work in close and won't put enough pressure on to handle high pressure tight work, it's not true, they can handle it. Jake works right in close when needed, he will heel just like our heelers if the sheep need a little encouragement to step up on the trailer, he will wear within inches if the sheep are heavy, But he can also get way out and handle open fields. I used Jake to move a pair of ewes with lambs right down the the Main drag at the North Iowa Fair this past weekend, he worked tight and up close, at first most did not realized a dog was walking the sheep until they began to pass, they just thought sheep were loose wondering right down the middle of the road. As they passed you could see the dog tucked in behind getting just far enough around to maintain control of the eye to steer while adding a little push to keep them going. This past weekend Wayne used Lilly, one of our border heelers for alley work and holding pens, for set out and to bring back the sheep that escaped under the fences into the other fields he used Jake (BC). About half way through the day he just tied Lilly and exclusively used Jake, way easier to use the dog that could do it all then to use the one that was a specialist.

 

BTW, when we had a few hogs here last summer Jake handled them fine, we could use any of our dogs to move them in the barn to different pens. But when I started turning them out to free range Jake was the one that could get them brought back in the most efficient manner with out us going out to help. Something to consider, it's all livestock, a dog that works one species correctly under all conditions can usually handle any species. A dog that works sheep well in the open but has issues in tight spaces will have problems working hogs or cattle in tight spaces, just like a dog that has difficulty handling sheep out in the open will probably have problems out in the open with hogs or cattle.

 

Deb

[Lenajo]

LR Alexanders dogs have been used as hog dogs, and he or Ben Means could probably either set you up with the right lines or tell you who could. Basically there stock is based on old Gilcrest Spot/Arthur Allen lines - they go around the stock really naturally and have plenty of power when they get there. ED West's lines, if you can find them anymore are the same.

 

If you *like* Aussies, then go with one and I wish you good luck finding a good working one. I've had Aussies now for 19 years (including a very good one who would work anything and a good smattering of the original work-only lines) and when the last one dies I will not get another one. The breed is utterly ruined imo, and 90% or better nothing but chasing fools if they work at all. Even within a real "working only" litter (if you can find a real one, not just an arena trial breeding) the consistancy is terrible - some pups not even working, to some being so stupidly aggressive and rough no farmer would use them.

 

And if you get a good one, good luck finding an equally good one to breed it for you next one.

 

Then of course there are the health problems. Be very careful where and who you buy from. Seizures are rampant, life spans are reducing (the average age of an Aussie to die now is 12 I'm reading, when dogs of the past were regularily reaching 17-18) due to cancer and other issues. Temperaments are awful - the confident and sensibly reserved farm guardian seems to be becoming a thing of the past.

 

I consider the states of the Aussie breed to be a terrible warning for the Border Collie.

 

IF I was going to look at other breeds I would consider a Kelpie, a Working (ISDS) Beardie from the UK, or possible if I wanted a family pet/guard/rough worker an English Shepherd.

 

At this point I see no need to look elsewhere. Like most working Border Collies, mine work where, and whatever livestock, I need. There are those that are better and worse at each task, but as a whole I've found the average ability level is more than enough. I also don't have to search the world over to find a mentally and physically sound one.

[Pam Wolf]

As for health issues in Aussies, cancer is a major problem in all lines from what I'm told. I know a friend has ahd several dogs die at about 7 years from various forms of cancer.

[NRhodes]

There are a lot of people who have used border collies to work hogs. A few that come to mind are Vergil Holland (KY) and Larry Griggs (NC).

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I used my Shiro to work weiner pigs. She did well and moved they just fine. There were also Aussies, kelpies, ACd etc and we all took turns on the weiners. Shiro and one ACD were the only dogs that cold work them The weiners ran off a few dogs too. They can size up a dog really quick. Seven weiners running off an a dog was a sight to see

 

Diane

[BustopherJones]

I don't work dogs, so I am not an expert. I do know that Border Collies are heat-sensitive, and do not do well in high-temparature, high-humidity environments. The Aussie was developed to herd imported Autralian sheep in the American Southwest not because they had better herding skills, but because they (like ACD's) could tolerate the conditions better. I doubt that Iowa has the same heat problems, but perhaps I am wrong.

 

As a sidebar, Lacy dogs are known for their hog-herding ability. Lacy Dogs

 

Border Collies are the most intelligent breed of dog; we all know that already. ACD's are rated #10 (although I would not trust an ACD around small children); Australian Shepherds are rated #42.

[Smokjbc]

I don't work dogs, so I am not an expert. I do know that Border Collies are heat-sensitive, and do not do well in high-temparature, high-humidity environments. The Aussie was developed to herd imported Autralian sheep in the American Southwest not because they had better herding skills, but because they (like ACD's) could tolerate the conditions better. I doubt that Iowa has the same heat problems, but perhaps I am wrong.

 

Border Collies are the most intelligent breed of dog; we all know that already. ACD's are rated #10; Australian Shepherds are rated #42.

 

Kelpies are known for better heat stamina than Border Collies, but I don't think Aussies have the advantage there. I regularly work my dogs in the southwest heat and while some individuals had trouble, properly conditioned dogs do fine within reason.

[Pam Wolf]

I don't work dogs, so I am not an expert. I do know that Border Collies are heat-sensitive, and do not do well in high-temparature, high-humidity environments. The Aussie was developed to herd imported Autralian sheep in the American Southwest not because they had better herding skills, but because they (like ACD's) could tolerate the conditions better. I doubt that Iowa has the same heat problems, but perhaps I am wrong.

 

Where did you get the idea that BC's were heat sensitive? No more than any other breed. In fact, my BC's outlast my Kelpie in the heat. Heat tolerance depends on several factors, and it can vary widely within any breed. I've had both smooth and rough BC's and noticed no differences that I could attribute to coat type as far as heat tolerance is concerned

 

And it gets HOT in Iowa.

 

As a sidebar, Lacy dogs are known for their hog-herding ability. Lacy Dogs

 

If you are speaking of Blue Lacy's they are essentially the same as Catahoulas in their working style, more of a bay em up sort than actual 'herding'