Moxie Crimefighter Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 I am new around these boards and have had moxie for about 1 year now. My longtime boyfriend and I got her from the humane society when she was about 6 months old. Our problems (in hind sight) began before we ever even brought her home. When we first took her out of the kennel to take her outside for a little bit she pee'd on my boyfriends sandal in submission. And this has been the major problem ever since. I have tried and tried to fix this problem, but it is coming down the point where we have discussed trying to find a new home for her. This is the last thing I want to do and the discussion was mostly me balling my eyes out. Moxie has gotten so bad around my boyfriend that it is nearly impossible for him to interact with her. One moment they will be playing ball or playing in the house and all the sudden she acts like she is in big trouble and pees on the floor. When he walks in the room she shys away and goes to her bed. He hasn't ever hit her and it started the day we met her and has just gotten worse. She is definitely a submissive dog and even our friends Pomeranian rules her when she is around. I have taken her to a training class at a local pet store just for fun to see if that would help just to get her out and doing something different, but when she was back around my boyfriend it was the same. She used to pee when someone came to the door or got too excited and she is a lot better about it now and its almost only when my boyfriend is there. He is running out of patience for her as he has tried to work with her but she just freezes and pees. Is there anything that I can do??? It would absolutely break my heart to have to get rid of her, but we are starting to fight over it almost nightly. He will walk by her and she will pee on the carpet, he will try to play or pet her and she pees on the carpet. I just dont know what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon M Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 does she do this around all men, or just your boyfriend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 My first thought would be that if he's running out of patience with her he's communicating that fact to her unwittingly, and she's picking up on it, which of course only makes things worse. He needs to just ignore all the accidents, put her outside when it happens so he can clean up, and then let her back in--all the while never letting on, consciously or unconsciously, that her behavior is pissing him off. Most pups outgrow submissive urination if you just give them time (and sometimes they need plenty of time). If your boyfriend continues to be annoyed by her submissive urination, it's like she'll just continue to do it (she can read his body language better than a human can, and knows she's doing something to displease him, yet doesn't understand what it is). Give the poor little pup a break, and give her more time to get over it--but your BF is going to have to work on his attitude to make it work. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosanne Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Submissive peeing is hard to 'fix' because usually the dog has no control over it. She doesn't even realize she's displeasing you. If your boyfriend's ever gotten mad about it, that's probably made it exponentially worse, even if he tried not to yell. The dog can tell. The best thing you can probably do is have him basically ignore the dog but have treats around so that if she chooses to come over he can give her one, but avoid confrontational behaviors like wrestling on the floor or staring her in the eye or even training much. Give her time to relax around him and not consider him a threat or dominant force. I had a BC who was terrified of my father her whole life. For no reason. He's a bit loud and swears when he drops things, but that's it. That was enough for her; I got her at 4+ months and she was a little shy of men at the time, and for some reason he made a bad first impression and it never wore off. She did get over her fear of other men though. She was pretty much best when he just ignored her, and she did get better if he fed her a bit while he was just relaxing on the couch or something completely non-threatening. If you could find a real behaviorist that might help too, to get a consultation. (Or even just a really good trainer) And bring the boyfriend. If he's never had dogs before he may not understand that he's even sending threatening signals at all to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Maybe your boyfriend needs to be the only one interacting with her for awhile. He trains, feeds, walks, etc... he should do everything for her. I would even sign them up for a class. Does she act like this with other males? Does he have "something" unusual that most men she sees don't, ie: beard, glasses, bald, real tall, fat, skinny, wear a hat alot, etc... is there something about him that she does not usually see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelb'smum Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Maybe your boyfriend needs to be the only one interacting with her for awhile. He trains, feeds, walks, etc... he should do everything for her. I would even sign them up for a class. Does she act like this with other males? Does he have "something" unusual that most men she sees don't, ie: beard, glasses, bald, real tall, fat, skinny, wear a hat alot, etc... is there something about him that she does not usually see... I dunno.... Shelby loves my BF, (right now she lives with him) but she has always been nervous around him, and about half the time thinks he's angry at her, he doesn't realize that he's sending those vibes, but she and I both see it. and it has only gotten worse since she moved in with him 2 months ago (OT yay I get her back next week) I think your bf should ignore her except for interactions that she starts. and associate goods things like treats and pets with it. ETA::: its sounds like my BF is horrible around her... which he is not, he just isn't an extremely patient man, but he treats her like the princess she is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WoobiesMom Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 From the owner of an extremely fearful dog, get a professional, talk to a vet, and slow down. Way down. As Cesar Milan says, these are the hardest cases. They take MUCH LONGER to work with than even red-zone aggressive cases. In the meantime, go to dogwise.com and order as many books as you can get your hands on about desensitization and counter-conditioning. I second the recommendation that he needs to not have direct, face-to-face interaction with her. My Woobs has warmed up most quickly with those who have ignored him, let him take his own time and offer him treats in a very off-handed, casual way. The ones who face him, make eye contact, try to talk directly to him, approach, lean over, etc. are the ones he runs away from. It's a very challenging situation, to be sure, but not insurmountable. Your BF needs to read the books, get with the program, and ignore her for a while. I've had Woobs just about 6 months and he still freaks out and get spooked at lots of things. The desensitization and counter-conditioning work we've done has made progress, but it's measured in tiny, little baby-steps and the successes come when I least suspect them. It can be overcome but you have to arm yourself with the right information and attitude. With these types of fearful dogs, it takes so much more than an attitude of "Be nice to them, they'll learn that people are okay, and all will be right with the world". I didn't realize that when I got Woobie, I was of that attitude until I thoroughly researched (and continue to) the fearful dog. Good luck and if you do decide to rehome her, please try to make sure it's with someone who understands and will do the work with her that is necessary. I hope I haven't sounded too harsh, I really do understand. It's alot of work and takes a tremendous amount of work and patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 I second the idea of a good behaviorist or trainer. In the meantime, have the BF totally ignore her. If she's so scared of him that she consistently urinates in his presence, she is way, way over her threshold for being able to 'think' about what is happening. With the pressure of having to interact with BF off her, she may calm down. Hope this helps, but do see if you can find a professional to observe what's going on. BF may be doing things that look like threats to her without him even knowing it. Ruth n the BC3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Crimefighter Posted July 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 She is more submissive around men, but for some reason mostly my boyfriend. I have been working to solve this problem for a little over a year now and he has lived with me before I got moxie. I like the idea of having him give her a treat when she decides to interact with him. I do think she is picking up on his body language for sure. He wants to play with her and interact with her and that is what is frustrating him the most. Is there something I can do to boost her confidence on a whole and also what kind of things he can do with her that would help. Is the best way to correct it to just ignore it? Also, are there any books that you specifically recommend? I know it must sound like I just want to dump her and take the easy way out, but that is exactly opposite of my intentions. If there is something that can help I will do it. I don't have much to spend on a behaviorist but if I can make it work I will save until I can do it. I just have gotten to a low in hopes of helping her and wondering if she would be happier somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WoobiesMom Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Woobie was most afraid of my 20 yr old son when he joined our family. He had the low voice, tall presence, etc that scared him and he'd been fostered by families of females (only 1 male in the foster homes). My son would sit on the floor with his back to Woobie and a very tasty treat in his palm behind his back. He sat there for hours at a time before Woobie would come anywhere near him. He'd leave the treat on the floor so Woobie associated his smell where he'd been sitting with the yummy treat. Then, I sat next to my son with me facing Woobs and my son's back to him. I'd hold out the tasty treat, encourage him very quietly and as he came closer and closer, I'd feed him a tiny bit, then put the rest in my son's palm. It took days of this before Woobie first took it from my son's hand. My son also had to move slowly and speak quietly in the house or Woobie would tear out for his hiding space in the corner. Once Woobie was taking food from my son's turned back, he worked to the side, never making eye contact, then face forward but still with no eye contact. He'd hold out one hand w/food and one hand empty so that Woobie would have to brush past him and get petted a little in order to get to the treat. A little bit later, we had Woobie sleep in my son's room. Even though he'd act very scared in the morning and tear out of the bedroom when we'd open the door, my son said during the night, he slept under the bed and he would catch him sniffing him when he thought he was sleeping. He'd just lie still and let him sniff his fill. Fast forward about 2 months, Woobie is most in love with my son. His reaction when he comes home is more happy than with either me or my daughter even though *I* do the most for this little stinker! He lays right under his legs when he's watching tv, etc., and sleeps near the door when it's just me around! Harumph! Oh, we also fed him alot less than his normal ration during this time so there was some hunger motivation at work, but we didn't starve him. I would suggest your BF behave quietly around her, avoid eye contact, and maybe watch tv, etc while sitting on the floor so he's not a tall, imposing presence for her. Having a ball park frank bit in his hand might help too, but when she takes it, don't react and get all excited with praise, just let her brain do the processing of BF=yummy treat and no threatening movements, actions, etc. Baby steps...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Mom Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Our dog Penny does this too, mostly around my mom. Shes getting blood tests in a couple weeks to get medications that will (apparently) help with her bladder control. She's been submssive like this for the 7 years we've had her, but she's started to pee more lately Our vet says its common and fixable! When we get the meds, I can tell you what they are, if you'd like to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WoobiesMom Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Here's some books: HELP FOR YOUR FEARFUL DOG: A STEP-BY-STEP GUIDE TO HELPING YOUR DOG CONQUER HIS FEARS Nicole Wilde CAUTIOUS CANINE, 2ND EDITION Patricia McConnell $6.95 --- Especially Good!!! Helps you understand the brain. ON TALKING TERMS WITH DOGS: CALMING SIGNALS 2ND. ED. Turid Rugaas $12.95 This one really helped me view my dog differently. Now I can see when he's uncomfortable long before I ever would have picked up on it before. I feel like I have Woobie ESP now after this book. Great!!! STRESS IN DOGS - LEARN HOW DOGS SHOW STRESS AND WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP Martina Scholz & Clarissa von Reinhardt $14.95 I don't have this one yet, but plan to buy. Some websites that helped me: http://www.animalhumanesociety.org/bhv_desensitization.asp http://www.bcrescuetexas.org/Training/ATM_...nsitization.pdf http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/fear.htm This one has stuff about aggession but I found it helped me understand the fear side of things. I know you don't want to dump her, I can hear the hope battling the frustration in your message. Hang in there, it can be done! Hope these things help. Feel free to continue asking questions, lots of great advice here as well as people who've dealt with what you're dealing with. :HUGS: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 "Is the best way to correct it to just ignore it?' You should not ignore the problem. Your BF needs to ignore Moxie. Rough-housing with her is the worse thing he can do. Especially if he's the type who always has to win. If you purchase some books, will your BF read them? Will your BF help you save for a professional? If he's serious about wanting to get along with Moxie, he should. I apologize for being blunt but this problem will only be resolved, IMO, if you're both open to suggestions and heed those suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Crimefighter Posted July 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 I eventually would like to have 2 dogs and have been wondering if we got a second dog (probably a rescue) would that help her by giving her a dog she could "follow" because she is usually the low dog on the totem pole. Any suggestions on this idea? I know this wouldn't fix the problem we are having with moxie, and we would still have to work with her. Do you think this might make it worse? Advice?? "I apologize for being blunt but this problem will only be resolved, IMO, if you're both open to suggestions and heed those suggestions." Being blunt is not a problem. I want more than anything to keep this dog and I totally understand the bluntness =) "If you purchase some books, will your BF read them? Will your BF help you save for a professional? If he's serious about wanting to get along with Moxie, he should." - Does anyone know how to train boyfriends?? =) Thank you for those links and books, I am going to the bookstore tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosefarm Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Lily did this for a few months after we got her only with Brian, my dh. It only stopped after she learned he was trustworthy. on a light note, my brother came over with his truck with all bells and whistles (leather heated seats etc), and I think Lily thought it was mine, she loves a ride in the truck so she hopped in, prompting both my brother and husband to yell at her to get out - wrong move, so of course scared shitless she peed all over his truck. I cleaned it out, but made sure they knew who caused the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WoobiesMom Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 On the topic of adding another dog, I wondered the same thing about Woobie and even asked the foster moms if they thought he should have another dog since he'd been fostered with several dogs. They seemed to think that if the additional dog was even slightly more outgoing and friendly it might cause us to subconsciously pay more attention and give more positive vibes to the outgoing dog and that would make it easier for Woobie to sink back into the woodwork. So I committed to them that I'd wait before adding the 2nd dog that I'd love to have. Being an only dog does make Woobie the top dog here which I think aids his confidence and causes him to have to interact with us because we love him and he's the only one pushing for attention or around for us to love on. Except the cats of course, but he and Milo have become best buds so he does have animal companionship. I would deal with her problems before trying to add another dog. Training BFs should be left to the experts... I think if he reads the books and gains an understanding that his approach to play and interaction isn't right for this particular dog he can be encouraged to approach her in the way she needs and then when the relationship does form, he'll feel even more closely bonded to her. It makes you feel pretty special when a fearful dog trusts you, you should see the reaction the "chosen few" at the dog park have when Woobs runs up with tail a'waggin' and lets them pet him, they positively beam! Your BF will too if he's really dedicated to making this work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 I highly recommend the Shy-k9s Yahoo group... this sure is sounding like it has a strong genetic component to it. On shy-k9s there is an abundance of trainers and extremely shy dog savvy folks that can give you some concrete and explicit help... to say nothing of outstanding emotional support. I think it would be right up your alley. http://www.groups.yahoo.com just type in shy-k9s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Crimefighter Posted July 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Thank you so much for all the help. I just am not getting anywhere with what we are doing. It's like a switch with her and one minute she will be happy and running around and the next she is hiding in the corner from him. We cannot figure out what is setting her off. He does not even have to make a noise for this change to happen. He has not ever hit her, but you would never believe it if you saw them together when she is acting weird. I am trying to see how much a behaviorist in our area would cost, but haven't gotten very good feedback as of yet. Does anyone know anyone in Utah who they would recommend? I am going to the bookstore today to pick up at least one of those books and have gotten onto the shy-k9 group. I am just hoping some of this works, because it has just gotten to a point where they cannot even be in the same room because she instantly cowers and pee's on the carpet. But the next second she is fine. I just dont know what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WoobiesMom Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 In the meantime, maybe some of those doggie diapers would help when BF is around. At least it would save your carpets, etc. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Hey girl, It will take time... working with a shy dog is kinda like watching paint dry. and BTW welcome aboard, here and there! Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Keep the dog...find a new boyfriend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Crimefighter Posted July 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Just an update. I have ordered a few books and am waiting for them to arrive. Also I have contacted a few Agility trainers to see if we can get moxie into some agility training to help build her confidence and at the very least get her some extra exercise. My boyfriend has agreed to read some of the books I have ordered and work on his body language around moxie. I didn't really find any information about a local behaviorist but will keep looking and see how we are doing in a few months. Thank you all for the support and information!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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