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I've seen a lot of discussions on this theme. Check out some of the archived threads and do a search for this. Some people prefer to wait till the dog is fully grown, both physically and mentally (1.5-2 years old). Some do it before 6 months. Most rescues do pediatric neutering, to avoid any unwanted surprises from careless owners.

 

Mine is 16 months and is not neutered. BIG SHOCK, everyone is silent and gasping for air. I don't plan to ever breed him, but I'm still debating if I'll do it at 2 years or later. Or ever. (Throw stones, I'll take them :rolleyes: ). He's always in a controlled environment (except dog parks, but I highly doubt someone would bring a female in heat to a dog park) so there's no risk of him jumping any neighbor fences and making someone's day.

 

I'd sugest you do some research on this forum and in other places and make a very informed decision.

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Sorry. I don't know about male dogs.... :D

Somewhere between 6 months and 1 year is what most people do for girls. However there is debate about waiting after their first heat cycle, especially if the dog will be a competition dog. I just got Dazzle spayed at 7 months and got it over with.

 

I must admit Anda, I never knew that Ouzo wasn't neutered. Maybe he would put his tail down. :rolleyes::D

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The problem with waiting is that all the a-hole boy stuff that early neutering might avoid will be ingrained habit by the time a dog is two or older. Probably not so much an issue in one-dog households, or households with only entire male.

 

For me what Bill writes is important. Dylan, now nearly 3, was neutered at 11 months and I wish I had had him done earlier. He suddenly started marking when he was 8 months - I mean he woke up one morning and peed in 5 or 6 different places in our garden whereas before he had done one Niagra falls type pee in one place. I took him to the vet that day I was so worried ! It became a bit of an issue on walks. He is now trained not to mark when we are walking down the street but when we go on trails or to the park it is not easy to control. We have tonnes of dogs around here - most males are un-neutered and big markers. There are also a number of aggressive dogs. Your decision may depend on where you live. If I lived in the country with less dogs I wouldn't worry so much maybe. Anyway, that has been my experience. Just thought I'd post because I haven't on this issue before.

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If I were looking at neutering a youngster that was going to be my companion/pet, I would seriously consider doing so at six months of age like I did for Celt. He is wonderful - no marking, no nasty male behaviors, no rude behaviors around people or bitches, etc.

 

I can understand someone who is looking to their dog being a performance athlete, and putting off the neutering until physical maturity to help avoid potential soundness issues.

 

With Bute, I am waiting until he is about two years old, as I want him to be confident and assertive as a cowdog on our farm. Now, I don't know how much of Celt's issues in working stock may be related to his early neutering but I don't want to risk "mellowing" Bute too much by neutering early, and want to allow him to finish both his physical and mental growth before neutering. I may be way off base on this but, as Bute has not shown any behaviors that I want to avoid so far, and following the advice of a number of people I respect, I'm giving waiting a try. If his future was to be a pet, he would have been done before this.

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I have a twelve year old un-neutered male that I heartily wish I'd had snipped for the reasons Bill cites. :rolleyes: I didn't because he's a Lhasa and is indoors all the time unless he's on a leash. He was also very sweet and timid as a young dog, and had some health problems. The "sweet and timid" personality changed about the time I decided he was too old to do surgery unless it was an absolute must, and now he's something of a terror. I love him, and so does his little terrier girlfriend (who is spayed), but that makes two of us. :D The rest of the critters and DH think he's the Dalai Lama's revenge. :D

 

That said, I'm hoping Faith, my puppy bitch, will make a sheepdog, so I'm going to wait to have her spayed. I'm also curious about what age people recommend spaying a future working bitch?

 

I've tried doing a search, but you can't put in terms of four letters or less, which lets out "spay" and "age". :D

 

ETA: Don't worry, there will be no "collie apso's." :D :D Arlo the Lhasa terrifies Violet, my grown up BC, so much that she's happier when kept completely separate from him. Faith stays with Vi, so never the twain shall meet. I'm lucky that my old farmhouse has one of those long central hallways, so I can split the house in half by shutting doors.

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Sally,

I'm just going to make some general comments on neutering.

 

When to neuter a female depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is how well you can protect her from males when she comes into heat. And that means you have to pay pretty close attention. Lark is the result of a bitch in heat who didn't *appear* to be in heat. So keeping a bitch intact does require vigilance. And bitches can be as persistent as dogs about getting out to find a "partner."

 

Pros for an early spay are that if the bitch is spayed before her first heat then her risk of mammary cancer is greatly reduced. Waiting until after the first heat to spay will also reduce the risk of mammary tumors, but not to the same extent as spaying before the first heat. That is, you still gain *some* protection by spaying at any age, but the greatest protection comes from spaying before the first heat.

 

Every time a bitch goes through a heat, she also goes through a false pregnancy (some may be virtually unnoticeable, others will go through nesting behavior and everything else as if they really are going to have pups). Every time a bitch goes through a heat, you run the risk of an infection of the uterus (pyometra). This is very important because pyometra can easily go unnoticed and can be deadly. If the bitch has open pyometra, you might see a dischage. If she has closed pyometra, you may never see anything, and by the time you realize (or the bitch tells you) something is wrong, the bitch may already be quite ill. A friend of mine had a bitch who just refused food one evening. Given that this particular bitch is a food hound, she rushed her to the vet right away. She had pyometra and was spayed, but fought for her life in the hospital for something like a week. I'm not saying this to scare anyone, and lots of bitches go through heats without ever developing pyometra, but it is a very real possibility, and I do know folks who have lost their good dogs to it.

 

Don't think an intact Lhasa can't breed your bitch, he can (I'm sure you know that, but it's worth repeating). And dogs can breed through fences/crates as well.

 

The main reason for later neutering is to allow growth plates to close. If I remember correctly early neutering means that the dog will have *slightly* longer long bones than a dog that is neutered later (and someone will correct me if I'm misremembering). Male dogs that are neutered early aren't likely to develop the secondary male characteristics (you know, that look that says "male dog"), but as Bill notes there's a tradeoff. Waiting to get the male look and for growth plates to close means you're likely to end up with some annoying male behaviors as well. Pip at 7 months already sticks his nose up female butts any chance he gets (can we say oversexed?). I will probably neuter him, but am willing to take the risk of the annoying male behaviors (mainly because he's pretty biddable and I think I can ameliorate some of them)to let him grow. Part of my reasoning there is that he grow so big so quickly that I really do want him to finish growing before neutering to avoid any skeletal problems. (And I may be off base in that thinking, but I'm willing to take that chance.) The big PIA with keeping him intact longer is that I have a houseful of bitches (well, now I'm down to three) and that means I will have to be super careful....

 

One of the big problems that can affect older intact males is prostatitis. And of course there's also the risk of testicular cancer, but I don't have figures on the incidence of any cancers (mammary or testicular) or pyometra in intact dogs. There are probably some out there if anyone cares to look.

 

With bitches, they can come into heat any time after 6 months and then they will come in on their own particular schedule. Most resources will say every six months, but my two (Twist and Kat) have always been on an 8-month schedule. Twist came in for the first time at six months, but Lark, at just over a year, has yet to have a first heat. Since her dam was a surprise pregnancy I will have to watch her like a hawk, esp. with an intact male around. A friend of mine has a bitch who just came in for the first time at 3 years old.

 

So those are the basic issues that need to be considered when thinking about when to neuter. There is no *perfect* time to neuter. A lot depends on how much the owner wants to invest in keeping an intact animal away from other intact animals when females are in heat and how much risk vs. benefit one is willing to tolerate (i.e., pyo, growth plates, mammary/testicular cancer). I think it's a very personal decision and only the individual can decide when is the best time to neuter (or not) his/her dog. Someone who chooses not to neuter takes on the added responsibility of ensuring that no unwanted pregnancies result from that choice and that they educate themselves to the potential health issues associated with intact dogs.

 

I hope that helps.

 

J.

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I neutered my male boxer at 6 yrs. He never had ANY negative male behaviours, but I wanted to steer him clear of any prostate problems. When I neutered him, rather quickly, he lost a LOT of muscle mass in his hind legs. He basically lost his secondary male characteristics, but he did retain his leg lifting outside. He never lifted his leg indoors, and he never humped any females. Of course I had no intact females in my house when he was in tact.

 

For the females, I am grappling with what to do with my 11 month (yest) female. She has not been in heat yet, and though I considered the option of breeding her, I am rethinking that. It may sound wimpy, but I don't want to risk having her develop pyometra, and possibly losing her. I also do not think at this point, I am up to puppies. I don't know. A wise man once said, no matter how good a dog is, there will always be another one....

 

 

Julie

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Julie, thanks for the reply. :D Good point about pyometra - I knew a chow bitch once who had the closed variety. Her only symptom was one day she just didn't look like she felt good. Luckily her owner took her to the vet that day, which was all that saved her.

 

Faith is shooting up like a weed since we got her coccidia and other parasites (she was a shelter rescue, for those who don't know) under control and she's getting enough nutritious food. I think she may grow up to be a tall girl - she's only a tiny bit shorter than Violet now, at only five months old.

 

I've read that, as you say, early spaying can cause those long bones to grow longer. Which makes sense, if you've seen portraits or read descriptions of human eunuchs - they tended to be tall and slender with long fine bones. Anyway, of course the thinking is that bone extension can set the athletic dog up for ACL or other ligament tears in future because the angle of attachment is more extreme.

 

Given Faith's personality, which is a tad intense :D , I can see her leading an active lifestyle no matter what she grows up to be. So I'm going to try to wait to spay until the growth plates close. If I can stand Arlo's spondjulicks when/if she goes into heat - I remember what it was like keeping him separate from Abbie, the feist, during her first (and only) heat. :rolleyes: And it will be a pain to keep Faith confined for a month in the house with just leash walks, which I'll have to do since my neighbors think it's their God-given right to let their intact males roam the countryside. *sigh* But I still think I'm going to try and wait till she's older to spay.

 

So, at what age do growth plates normally close in female BC?

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Mine is 16 months and is not neutered. BIG SHOCK, everyone is silent and gasping for air. I don't plan to ever breed him, but I'm still debating if I'll do it at 2 years or later. Or ever.

 

If you don't intend to breed him, why not just neuter him? I guess I don't understand what the attraction is to keeping him intact. All of my dogs are neutered, it's a no brainer - no accidental matings, no temptation to breed, no effect on the dog's physique (and they are, none of them, fat OR lazy, unless I feed them too much).

 

RDM

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I was under the impression that neutering early affected males (dogs, horses, cattle, whatever) but wasn't aware that it might affect females in terms of long-bone growth. So, does it affect the females like it does the males?

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I was under the impression that neutering early affected males (dogs, horses, cattle, whatever) but wasn't aware that it might affect females in terms of long-bone growth. So, does it affect the females like it does the males?

 

Sue, I was wondering about your question and did an internet search. Here's the best link I came up with:

Summary of Spain presentation

 

According to this, the onset of puberty in either sex triggers hormonal signals that tell the growth plates to close. So early neutering prolongs bone growth in both sexes.

 

So I guess that answers my question, too, and if I wait till after Faith's first heat her bones will be finished growing? Happily, the same presentation data says you still get a 90% reduction in the occurrence of mammary malignancies by spaying before the second heat.

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Not so much as you'd think. Click on this link

 

Castrati

 

and scroll down to look at their portraits. The castrati were generally taller than normal too.

 

What a wierd discussion this has turned into :rolleyes:

 

I think I figured out the diference:

 

Eunuchs castrated before puberty were also valued and trained in several cultures for their exceptional voices, which retained a childlike and other-worldly flexibility and treble pitch; unfortunately the choice had to be made at an age the boy would not yet be able to consciously choose whether to sacrifice his sexual potency, and there was no guarantee that the voice would remain of musical excellence after the operation. Such eunuchs were known as castrati.

 

 

A castrato is a male soprano, mezzo-soprano, or alto voice produced either by castration of the singer before puberty or who, because of an endocrinological condition, never reaches sexual maturity. Therefore, his voice never deepens.

 

 

I think because of the timing of the castration, for adult males that were subjected to the operation, the "eunuch is likely to put on weight like a female, develop a thin layer of fat under soft skin, and have extra weight around the hips and the stomach". Probably for those who were operated before puberty, they would indeed not even develop these secondary effects, and would remain slender.

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Well Black Jack was neutered when I first saw him at the shelter. I'm going to guess he got snipped around 7 to 8 months? maybe around 1 year? I'm not really sure, I really don't even know how old he is for sure. But everything I have heard and from what my vet said 6 months old is about right. But I would guess it would vary from dog to dog, and person to person.

 

Black Jack does like to mark (everything!), and he lifts his leg when he pees. But thankfully he doesn't hump, that I know of. I haven't seen any signs of him wanting to do it. Although there is a little dog at a store in town that likes to hump your leg as soon as you come in :rolleyes: I mean, what do you say? really.

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I have to say I think that the justification for keeping a male dog intact because "no one would bring a bitch in heat to a dog park" is pretty weak. Why are you relying on other people's good sense to prevent unwanted pups???? Why should you be let off the hook? Unplanned pregnancies are just that: UNPLANNED, all it takes is a whoops moment and poof you have just contributed to the pet overpopulation problem, or maybe some jerk lets his intact bitch roam and she comes looking for your guy, they say a 6 foot fence is no guarantee and that it only takes a hole in the fence or gate... poof they tie and you are now a deadbeat dad, because you don't know, aren't contributing to their care or being responsible for their well being.

 

I guess, I feel that the gender issue is pretty pathetic, why is it the owners of female dogs who are responsible? it takes two right? What if their dog is a young pup in an early unnoticed heat and poof... there are just so many variables, and if he isn't a stellar working representative of the breed and you have zero plans to breed him, why risk the cancers and possible baby making? I don't really understand what the hold out is. To assume that jo public dog owner is going to be responsible when you aren't is pretty hypocritical isn't it?

 

With a previous thread of 1000 dogs being PTS in a very short order of time, several rescuers working diligently daily to save the lives of hundreds of dogs I have to say I find your choices and justifications pretty appalling. Social conscience says alot about a person.

Sara

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I have a 2 year old intact male. He's getting neutered next month, mainly because I will have an intact bitch in the house and don't want to risk any accidents or put a lot of stress on him when she's going through a heat cycle.

 

I don't know what the deal is with all these annoying male behaviors. I've experienced none of them. He marks on walks, sure, but my female puppy does that as well. Butt sniffing, lifting a leg to pee (not to be confused with obnoxious, constant marking) etc seem to be normal dog behaviors. My dog will do this if given the chance, but often times it self-corrects as another dog will nail him for being too pushy. I can call him off another dog at any time, so it just doesn't bother me. He will work (obedience and agility, not stock work) past a bitch in season and honestly, my only reason for neutering him now is because I have Eve. I wanted to keep him intact until he was physically mature, he is now, so it just makes sense.

 

Why lay into Anda for it? It's her dog, her choice. It's entirely possible to own an intact dog and be responsible about it - people do it all the time. Hell, I've done it (and I'm far from a dog genius, I'm 17 and the dog in question is my first sexually mature, intact dog). Personally, I don't bring my dog to dog parks, but it's rooted in my own paranoia about aggressive dogs, rather than a lack of control over my own.

 

All of my dogs will be allowed to reach physical maturity before being altered. I'm of the opinion that those hormones are there for a reason and that it's probably healthier for the dog to let them be during crucial growth phases. I'm not saying everyone should do this, it's just what I personally am comfortable with.

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I wanted to add to this, that the USA leads the world in spay/neuter rates, but concomittantly suffers a very high pet over population.. In other countries it simply is not done to the degree that the USA does. There is no legal, moral, or ethical reason, if you are a SAVVY dog person that forces you to spay/neuter your dog. Yes, I suppose I will get flamed for this, but if you chose to be a responsible dog owner, your dog can remain in tact. I will say, there are issues that swing the pendulum (pyometra, prostate issues, etc), but those are health issues for the dog in question- not the aforementioned socially accepted constraints.

Julie

 

 

I have a 2 year old intact male. He's getting neutered next month, mainly because I will have an intact bitch in the house and don't want to risk any accidents or put a lot of stress on him when she's going through a heat cycle.

 

I don't know what the deal is with all these annoying male behaviors. I've experienced none of them. He marks on walks, sure, but my female puppy does that as well. Butt sniffing, lifting a leg to pee (not to be confused with obnoxious, constant marking) etc seem to be normal dog behaviors. My dog will do this if given the chance, but often times it self-corrects as another dog will nail him for being too pushy. I can call him off another dog at any time, so it just doesn't bother me. He will work (obedience and agility, not stock work) past a bitch in season and honestly, my only reason for neutering him now is because I have Eve. I wanted to keep him intact until he was physically mature, he is now, so it just makes sense.

 

Why lay into Anda for it? It's her dog, her choice. It's entirely possible to own an intact dog and be responsible about it - people do it all the time. Hell, I've done it (and I'm far from a dog genius, I'm 17 and the dog in question is my first sexually mature, intact dog). Personally, I don't bring my dog to dog parks, but it's rooted in my own paranoia about aggressive dogs, rather than a lack of control over my own.

 

All of my dogs will be allowed to reach physical maturity before being altered. I'm of the opinion that those hormones are there for a reason and that it's probably healthier for the dog to let them be during crucial growth phases. I'm not saying everyone should do this, it's just what I personally am comfortable with.

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Anda - I expect you're exactly right, and the timing of the operation is what makes the difference. Thanks for your insight on my somewhat creepy tangent. :D

 

I agree that it's perfectly possible to be a responsible owner of an intact dog or bitch and not contribute to the overpopulation problem. I spent a lot of my misspent youth at ACK shows, where of course no dog or bitch was altered, and in all that time I only ever knew of one unplanned litter. For which the responsible party found good and loving homes. In fact, the owners of the oops litter wanted her to repeat the breeding, but since it involved her whippet dog leaping a fence and impregnating her chow bitch, she declined. We called the resulting pups Wows. :rolleyes:

 

But having owned both altered and intact critters, I also think life's a whole lot easier with the former. I'd never breed Faith, since no matter how good a worker she might become I wouldn't know what's behind her, so after menarche she's off to the vet.

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I've had two intact males dogs in the house. Neither have ever marked in the house.

I had a female at the same time but she was spayed. One dog was castrated at age 12

because he showed early signs of prostate problems. I thought it would be hard on him

at his advanced age but he didn't seem to notice at all. The females are spayed to avoid

accidental puppies. I do like to wait until they are a year old. Just a personal preference.

I think most all bitches should be spayed. There are super responsible people out there

that can keep their bitches from being bred unintentionally. Still as Julie stated, some bitches

won't display their heat and can get unexpectantly caught. Don't keep a bitch entire just

because she has great bloodlines. There are lots of pups to be had out there from proven

workers, most of us don't need to be breeding our own litters wether by design or mistake.

My two cents.....

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I didn't spay Cheyenne, for various reasons, ie, she hated other dogs, even when in heat, she was always with me on the truck, I couldn't take the time off for her to heal, and didn't think bouncing all over the country after spaying would be good for her.(not to mention complications, and who knows where I would be!). She is now paying for that. She has had surgery to remove mamaory glands with cancer. She had pyometra and we almost lost her. She got spayed from that. She now has cancer and there is nothing to be done. They are slow growing, but it will eventually take her. If I had it to do over, she would have been spayed before her first heat, the job be damned!

 

Jackson and Skip are not neutered. Jackson is 2, Skip is 9mos. and I am debating on neutering Jackson. I won't do Skip for a while whatever I decide. Jackson is a very easy going dog. But, last night, I think he had had enough of Skip's obnoxious behavior with him. They were under the table and Jackson was giving some serious growling warnings. And Skip wasn't backing off. After the third growl, I intervened. They have been fine since, but now I am wondering, as Skip gets older and with him thinking he can get by with being pushy, if Jackson might have to get serious with him to stop it. Would neutering help? I don't know. I think it is just that because Jackson let him get by with so much as a puppy, and now he is reaping what he sowed, and don't like it. I doubt neutering would help. It appears more of a "Skip, you better learn some manners" thing.

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Sara - RIGHT ON

 

Too many people think that they are in control of the dogs. Time for everyone to wake up to realities. Realize the possibilities. Then make wiser decisions. A rotty lives near me, and is left loose often. (my acreage is entirely fenced) Three dogs came visiting, one a female in heat, and their dog bred the female. The fellow said he was proud that his dog did his duties. That poor wandering female will now have pups somewhere in the fields, if she lived through the winter. The rotty owner thought her male would like to raise the puppies. End of conversation with me. Time for a reality check.

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